TheAgitator.com
Neo-Prohibition, Ct’d…
Monday, October 27th, 2003Three years ago, Mothers Against Drunk Driving and a slew of other neo-prohibitionist groups (including, yes, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation) launched a national campaign to set a federal blood-alcohol concentration threshold of .08. Most states at the time were at .10.
The average BAC of a drunk driver involved in a fatal accident is .15. Two-thirds involve BACs of .18 or higher. You’re more impaired using a cell phone, eating a sandwich, fumbling with a CD or talking to your kids than you are when your BAC is between .08 and .10.
But .08 passed, and was signed by President Clinton. Today, all but handful of states have adopted the standards. Those who haven’t have forgone millions in federal highway dollars.
.08 was justified to Congress, to Clinton and to the states with lots of appeal to emotion, but also because of a study by a guy named Ralph Hingson, who alleged that lowering the BAC from .10 to .08 would save 500 to 600 lives per year. Hingson’s 500 to 600 number was ridiculous for a couple of reasons.
First, it was just plain wrong. The General Accounting Office later looked at his research, and declared his prediction “unfounded.”
Second, even if the number was accurate, it’s not clear that 500 to 600 lives are worth the added law enforcement resources it will take to enforce .08 nationwide. The state of Minnesota conducted its own study, and determined .08 would cost the state an extra $60 million in law enforcement and criminal justice expenses — more than what the state gets in federal highway money. So Minnesota kept its own .10 standard. If the costs to Minnesota alone amount to $60 million, it’s hard to see how adding the costs of the other 49 states plus D.C. could justify even 500 to 600 lives — a number that’s probably not real, anyway.
Hingson’s numbers are widely debunked by serious scholars, he’s generally considered a shill for the temperance movement, yet he still gets cited with alarming regularity every time the subject of .08 comes up for debate in a state legislature.
I’m getting to a point, here:
Mothers Against Drunk Driving would like you to know that they’ve recently established “a new National Presidentâs Award.”
It’s called the “Ralph W. Hingson Research in Practice” award.
MADDness
Radley Balko has the lastest from MADD. A lot of folks still think of them as a public service group. Radley says they’re ‘neo-prohibitionists.’ I said the same a few weeks ago….
It’s the wrong solution to the problem. All it does is create a new class of criminal. For what it’s worth here in Norway the level is 0.2, which even the police say is too low to be properly detected by their equipment and gives a huge amount of false positives. Then again, we actually have buses we can take so driving is totally not necessary.
Ridiculous. I’m a state trooper in PA and our .08 went into effect on 10/01/03 so that PA would get their precious federal funds.
Here’s another interesting law on the books that recently got added (earlier this year, if I recall correctly): In ANY/ALL reportable traffic accident (means any accident with even a ‘complaint of pain’ and/or where the vehicle cannot be driven from the scene (even something like radiator damage/fluid loss) that involves a commercial vehicle (bus, tractor-trailer, etc.) we are REQUIRED to advise the truck driver to go get a blood test (even if someone in a car runs a red light and crashes into the truck, even if a truck is stopped and someone drives into him from behind, etc.). If the trucker doesn’t do so, he can be charged with this new section of the PA vehicle code. I think it totals to a couple hundred dollars; a summary offense.
I can’t wait to retire. I can’t even imagine what this shit will be like in ten years.
“The average BAC of a drunk driver involved in a fatal accident is .15.”
This is an interesting statistic, but ultimately a fraudulent one.
Not all accidents are fatal. What is the average BAC of a driver (not necessarily a “drunk driver”–whatever that means) who is involved in an accident? Whether or not anyone is even injured in the accident.
Moreover, what is the percentage of people involved in accidents who register any significant blood alcohol levels?
I think this is more of an ROI question, like Radley implies. At some point, the amount of money spent on DUI enforcement has a detrimental effect on other crime prevention and responses. Those two or three troopers who are manning the DUI check point could be patrolling a high crime area. I’d like to see some statistics that show what other crimes were committed in a specific area while the officer who normally patrolled that area was handling a not-so-drunken driver.
I don’t have any facts to back it up, but it seems reasonable to theorize that drunk driving enforcement is having some sort of detrimental effect on other crime statistics.
raising the legal drinking age to 21, the law in all 50 states that saves more than 900 young lives each year…
Please.
I was falling down drunk waaay more times between my 20th and 21st birthdays than I have ever been since my 21st birthday (5 years ago). Coincidence? I think not. And I know I am not unique in this regard.
As someone who is trying to make a living as a researcher, it sickens me what passes for “research” in so many circles.
Brian,
As someone who is trying to make their living as a researcher, I’m surprised at your post.
Just because you (and others) may have been drunk more before 21 than after doesn’t detract from the statement you quoted.
Surely, you’re sample size of yourself and some imagined idea of not being unique in that regard doesn’t make for much statistical evidence.
I’m not implying anything positive or negative regarding the statistic that you quoted, as I haven’t seen the study.
Doug
The biggest problem I have with the .08 BAC, is that the punishment does not fit the crime (especially when someone is punished without getting in a wreck). If the laws are based on creating safer roads, why are activities that equally hinder the driver not punished as severely, or at all? There is clearly something more to this law than safety.
Just as the government has tried to teach everyone that marijuana is just as dangerous as crack, they are now sending a distorted message about DUI. It is silly if .08 is considered the same as .18.
As a motorcyclist, I do promote reasonable laws that focus on creating safer roads and wish that lawmakers would keep the political and moral issues aside and focus on that goal.
I think the stats MADD quotes are a bit ridiculous too. C’mon! How can they know they save 900 lives per year? How can they know they have saved over 200K lives since they formed? And now that the laws are in place, why are they still around? Haven’t they served their purpose?
SH
Great point Brady
Great point Brady
Let me suggest that the way to make folks understand that you’re serious about curtailing drinking while driving, is some serious punishment for said offense. A fine? Spare me.
Some nations, such as Malaysia, the driver is jailed and if he is married, his wife is jailed too. Wow. That’d piss my wife off more than finding me in the sack with Jamie Lee Curtis (again). And it probably would be waived if your spouse was of the same sex (we’re talking special rights, not equal rights, afterall). Won’t work.
Or Norway - 3 weeks in jail at hard labor, 1 yr loss of license, 2nd offense within 5 yrs - license revoked for life. Ouch! Hard labor. For Americans? That’s what we have Mexicans for - it’d never pass.
Or maybe El Salvador - first timers are shot by firing squad. Oops. The gun control crowd (brethren of the MADD folks, I’m afraid) wouldn’t like that at all. It would, afterall, encourage gun violence. And we can’t have that. Scratch one perfectly acceptable punishment (in my ever so humble opinion, of course).
How about Bulgaria? The second offense is worthy of execution. That’s probably a question on your life insurance application, I would think. More dangerous than skydiving or motorcycle racing, for sure.
Here, we’re interested in feeling good, hence the .08 rule. It doesn’t make us any safer, but it feels sooo good. And that’s what we’re all about. We’re Americans!
And then, there’s the increased revenue from the additional lawbreakers, no? For a politician hellbent on spending other people’s money, the .08 rule must be very appealing indeed.
It’s here to stay, I’m afraid. We’re not any safer, and the government is in our life even more than they were.
I think I need a drink.
Doug–
I didn’t present my examples as “research”. That I haven’t done a proper study myself to test/refute someone else’s work does not preclude me from being critical of it. The most recent (published) study on the effects of increased drinking age on DUI deaths among under-21’s is confounded by the zero-tolerance approach of most states (arresting all under-21 drivers with ANY alcohol in their bloodstream)…in other words, this could be the result of stricter DUI enforcement, not the drinking age per se.
There are other things wrong with the study, but it’s too much to get into here.
BTW, there are many reports, (including this one) that state that while underage people drink less frequently than their 21-23-yr-old peers, they are more likely to drink to excess when they do.
So, it isn’t just me. (But thanks for keeping me honest!)
I don’t really have a problem with the ‘limit’ of .08 vs .10.
What I think that people should be more upset with are the ’sobriety checkpoints’ that seem to completely violate the fourth amendment.
Let’s face it, different people have different tolerances for alcohol. A non-drinker may have his driving abilities suffer terribly from being at a .05. I’ve seen alcoholics that drive just fine with a .20 or higher.
The typical DUI is based on probable cause whereby the violator was driving in an erratic manner, thus exhibiting his impairment. In such cases, if somebody can’t keep from crossing the center lines and is a .08, then a DUI conviction is valid. If they’re a .15 and driving down the road in a completely safe manner, they should never be stopped in the first place.
Sure, .08 is not a solution the problem of drunk driving. With what is known right now, there is no solution save eliminating drinking, or eliminating driving. That’s it.
Checkpoints must go. That’s where the true abuse lies.
Chris
The teetotalitarians are at it again.
Radley’s initial post was aimed at a special interest group, but I think the federal government is the better target here. The feds are basically blackmailing the states to change their DUI laws to conform to a national standard. The problem is not that some groups advocate something, or that they use dishonest research. It’s that the federal government can force states to adopt policies that their citizens would not. I am a police officer, and an expert in DUI cases. I have arrested only one person who tested between .08% and .10%, and she was barely able to walk. I don’t mind the .08% law per se, assuming the citizens of my state wished to adopt it. I think libertarians would be better served by advocating for limited federal government power, not getting into pissing matches with random advocacy groups. The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation would not matter if the government couldn’t force states to do its bidding.
Underserved Praise
On Monday, Radley Balko praised the state of Minnesota for standing up to the federal government: Second, even if the number was accurate, it’s not clear that 500 to 600 lives are worth the added law enforcement resources it will…
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