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Pat vs. Arianna

Wednesday, January 8th, 2003

Cato’s Pat Michaels will debate Arianna Huffington on SUVs tonight at 9:10pm ET on CNBC, and tomorrow morning at 8:30am on CNN.

Pat’s a wily sumbitch. I’d wager he’ll have her for breakfast. Or dinner, as it were.

For those (Bryan) who left comments below about how what Arianna’s doing is consumer activism and should be applauded as part of an efficient free market, yadda, yadda, yadda….I agree.

Except she’s wrong.

Follow me.

Arianna says people who buy SUVs are supportint terrorists.

About 20% of US petroleum comes from the Middle East. And SUVs consume about 2% of domestic petroleum. So you can blame SUVs for 20% of 2% of the oil we get from the Middle East. Or to put it another way, four tenths of a penny of every dollar SUV owners spend on gas goes to the Middle East.

But you can’t stop there. The argument says: “SUV owners support terrorists.” So you then have to figure out what percentage of that four tenths of a penny for every dollar goes to those Middle Eastern countries who are known to support terrorists. Then you have to look at what percentage of that money those countries actually spend on terrorism.

We’re looking at a really small number here. Small enough, I think, that you could just as easily make the case that patronizing or investing in any U.S. business with operations in terrorist-supporting countries holds just about the same potential of your dollar falling into the pocket of a suicide bomber.

And I hate to tell you, gang, but there are lots of U.S. businesses with operations in the Middle East.

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This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 8th, 2003 at 5:45 pm by Radley Balko and is filed under Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

40 Responses to “Pat vs. Arianna”

  1. #1 |  Anonymous |  January 8th, 2003 at 6:32 pm

    Actually Radly, it would be 2% of the 20%, but the 4/10 of a cent number is correct so it is a small point.

    What is a bigger point, however, is that American motorist spent $186 billion on fuel last year. That means that SUV drivers alone were responsible for $744 million going to countries that support terrorism.

    So you cut it in a third because SUV get 2/3 the mileage of other cars: $250 million.

    Say then that only half of the makes it to terrorist: $125 million.

    You know what, that is still $125 million that the terrorist wouldn’t have had if people just didn’t drive SUVs. Terrorist can do a lot of damage on $125 million, especially when it is spent in that part of the world.

    I appreciate that you recognize that this kind of debate is the right way to influence the free market. If most people disagree with me, they will keep on buying SUVs. I won’t though.

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  2. #2 |  Kurt Polenz |  January 8th, 2003 at 9:23 pm

    Too bad the first respondant didn’t leave a name, if it’s not a Ford- I’d relieve his burden of supporting terrorism.

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  3. #3 |  peter |  January 8th, 2003 at 10:59 pm

    I think the terrorism argument is just stupid, it reaks of most crazy leftist arguments you hear.

    My point on bad milage vehicles is that I don’t want any of my money going to Saudi Arabia or their partners in crime. One penny is too much. If we all cut down consumption so that only 10% of our imports came from Arab countries then that would hurt them considerably.

    So when I had to buy a car recently I decided that 14 mpg were not acceptable, knowing that some of that money went to Arab countries, and I wanted something in the mid 20s mpg.

    Should SUVs be outlawed, of course not, but why not have the governemnt not tax cars with good gas milage and tax the bad gas milage cars considerably higher. Is that not at least a fair tax. SUVs cause more wear on roads, probably cause more damage in crashes plus more pollution than your average car. Those things cost society something so the people who use them most should pay for them more.

    Anyway, after that rant, I also refuse to buy German and French products because they do not deserve my hard earned American money.

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  4. #4 |  rufus |  January 9th, 2003 at 2:14 am

    I might be getting things mixed up here, but wasn’t Huffington’s argument originally a somewhat tongue-in-cheek take on the “drugs fund terrorism” line the feds were trying to sell us?

    Seen in that way, the SUV argument is the more valid of the two (if still pretty pathetic on its own merits).

    But as I said, I could me mixifying my memories there.

    (no, mixifying isn’t a word, but it should be)

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  5. #5 |  jimmy |  January 9th, 2003 at 6:45 am

    So then i take it Huffington is going to lead the charge to allow drilling in Alaska so we can get off our dependancy on foreign oil?

    No? you mean she’s just another “do as i say not as i do” hypocrite?

    man, and i thought i had it all figured out.

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  6. #6 |  Anonymous |  January 9th, 2003 at 8:59 am

    Huffington is commonly regarded as a conservative. I would say there is a very strong likelihood that she is in support of drilling for oil in Alaska.

    A fact that a lot of conservatives are missing is that not everyone that disagrees with them is on the far left. It is possible to argue against SUVs, but for completely non-environmentalist reasons. Why don’t you try attacking the arguments, jimmy, rather than the messenger.

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  7. #7 |  P Bierman |  January 9th, 2003 at 9:44 am

    Michaels should definitely ream her. She couldn’t even take Sean Hannity yesterday on his radio show. And Hannity isn’t very good at logical debate.

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  8. #8 |  Chris Farley |  January 9th, 2003 at 10:09 am

    Using the “oil money is terror money” argument, the following things support terrorists:

    Everything - you can’t buy anything without paying the underlying transportation costs…which burn an oil based product of some sort.

    THAT is why this argument is so stupid. Using her logic, I can link any item in your house or on your person to terrorism.

    Even if you apply her logic exactly as she intends, it amounts to a total of ABOUT $1.9 million going to terrorists each year. Considering that there are, literally, thousands of people giving the terrorists this money in very small amounts, her argument still doesn’t make sense when diluted down to these levels. Even if we eliminated every SUV in the US, do you think the individuals sharing the oil money with terrorists would cut that out of thier budget? That makes the argument stupid at face value as well.

    If you really don’t want any of your hard earned money going to terrorists, stop spending it.

    I’m sorry to say, but some of you may not be allowed to join the emerging island nation. I’m very close to finding the exact coordinates.

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  9. #9 |  B Kieffer |  January 9th, 2003 at 10:35 am

    I don’t think this debate is rediculous enough, so I’m going to toss something else in. Don’t forget that automobile fuel is only one of MANY uses for oil. Petrochemicals are the basis for most things in our daily life.

    -If you heat your home, you may be supporting terrorism.
    -If you brought your sandwich to work in a plastic baggie, you support terrorism.
    -If you are wearing clothing made with synthetic fibers, you support terrorism.
    -If you are listening to a CD, using a phone, watching television, using a computer, or even just drumming your fingers on the desk in your cubicle, you are probably supporting terrorism.

    I could go on forever, but you get the idea.

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  10. #10 |  Brad |  January 9th, 2003 at 11:42 am

    Farley’s right.

    What about the other exports from the Middle East? Do Persian Rugs support terror? Pomegranates? Tapestries? Dates?

    If Huffington eats caviar (which seems to fit her image), does she check to make sure it is from Europe?

    If I eat a fig, am I killing innocent babies?

    This argument is simply retarded in a global marketplace.

    And as for you, Peter, which car would you rather own, a BMW Z3 (built in the Carolinas), or a Ford Escape (built in Japan by Mazda)?

    How about an all-American Jeep Wrangler? Built in America, but the profits go back to Stuttgart.

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  11. #11 |  Frank N |  January 9th, 2003 at 11:50 am

    Like I said somewhere else, terrorists will find a way to fund their activities. The product consumed is irrelevant.

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  12. #12 |  scanner |  January 9th, 2003 at 1:01 pm

    ok. lets say we do away with the whole fossil fuel bit in 15 years. say we go solar for arguments sake. that would take money out of the pockets of these Mid-East countries. so then their people suffer and begin to starve. the Mid-East turns into Africa and the leftist demand we start giving them financial aid. Sally “round-as-a-house” Struthers starts pulling her save the children shananagans again, and were asked to forget their debt to us by insainly wealthy rock stars that have been making crap music since “Auchtung, baby.”

    ok..im done ranting..all i ask is that we look before we leap.

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  13. #13 |  Bryan |  January 9th, 2003 at 1:58 pm

    So because we can’t stop the entire problem, we should do nothing to curtail that which we can stop? Obviously you have to draw the line somewhere, but when its as easy as cutting down on gas consumption (note: I am not even saying out right elimination), why not do it?

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  14. #14 |  Paul |  January 9th, 2003 at 6:47 pm

    For the first posting individual… You assume that the mid-east gains all the profit associated with the sale of gasoline… If you look at it though, they don’t sell gas, just crude oil. Crude now is trading around $31/bbl or about 73 cents a gallon. I don’t know about you but I pay about twice that for a gallon of regular gas, so you can already cut your number in half (62.5 million). That doesn’t even take into account the amount people pay for premium versions of gas so you can even cut that to a smaller number still. Then, you forget that most of the gas taken out over there is done by joint ventures between American companies and mid-east companies so they aren’t pocketing the total cost for a barrel of oil (considering the expenses paid by the American company including labor, cost of production, transportation, etc…) Finally, I’m sure 50% is way too high a figure to put into the coffers of the terrorists (there’s a reason the Saudi royal family has so much money)… Basically, your $125 million figure is crap…

    Oh, and my Camero gets the same gas mileage as my 4Runner so I’m sick of listening to people complain about how terrible SUVs are, especially with the BS CAFE standards that are being imposed, environmental monitoring equipment dictated, and other emission controls that the EPA feels are vital to be included in cars…. The fact is, it’s my money and I’ll spend it in the way I see fit… The government has no business regulating my choice in vehicle…

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  15. #15 |  Bryan |  January 9th, 2003 at 7:30 pm

    Paul,
    I posted the first set of numbers. Leaving my name off was unintentional.

    1) I did not assume that the middle east sees all the money from the sale of gasoline. I was accounting for mark up when I said that only half of the $250 million more that is spent by SUV makes it to the terrorist. That should have broken it out, you are right but fine, lets say only half of what is spent makes it to the oil suppliers (that there is a 50% mark up at the pump), and then that only 50% of what the suppliers get makes it to terrorist that is still 125 million strictly from SUVs going to terrorist and 125 million going to oil suppliers that support terrorist (whom I would argue are almost as dangerous).

    2)As far as your muscle car getting the same gas mileage as an SUV, I don’t think you should be driving one of those either. Radley’s numbers, however, where the amount of the American market captured by SUVs. That is what these figures deal with. So lets add you and other’s firebirds to the extra money that is needlessly being sent to terrorist because American don’t want to give up their extra big storage space, or flaming birds on their car’s hood.

    3) No one here is saying that the government should outlaw SUVs or any other cars. I am hesitant to say that even that they should limit emission standards. All I am saying is, as an American, take some individual responsibility for your purchases. If you can’t give it up, don’t. But at least recognize the consequences of your actions.

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  16. #16 |  Luigi Russo |  January 12th, 2003 at 11:57 am

    Arianna Huffington is an example of the true definition of fanaticism. I cannot believe that CNN, or the American people, allow this person to share her devious opinions. Someone has to confront this person and tell her that she needs serious psychiatric help. Please stop allowing her to give more ammunition to all those fanatical groups out there.

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  17. #17 |  Brett |  January 12th, 2003 at 2:00 pm

    OK B Kiefer, so you are saying that because other products may have terrorist ties, we just as well buy gas-guzzlers and give the terrorists even more money? Most products are a necessity, thus there is little we can do to limit our usage and the consequential money going overseas. Many people driving older vehicles are wasting gas, but they can not afford a newer vehicle. Granted some of them can and some of them commute to work farther than they need to. People that buy new SUVs are actively making a CHOICE to buy a gas-guzzler. They could just as well buy a car that gets anywhere from double to quadruple the gas mileage. There are very, very few times when a SUV is required. If you live on a farm or ranch, then yes. If you are a soccer mom in the ‘burbs, then NO. People got their kids to soccer practice before SUVs, thus the room argument is void. The safety argument is mute: look at roll-overs, handling, and crash test data.
    Peter, are you saying we should reward “American automakers” for building unreliable, unsafe, and inefficient cars while the Germans, Koreans, and Japanese offer inovation in the automotive industry?

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  18. #18 |  Tony |  January 12th, 2003 at 6:38 pm

    Bush shouldnt go to war because all those GAS GUZZLERS will fund the terrerism (helicopters, tanks, battleships, airplanes). You idiots have nothing better to talk about??? There are so many things that are aweful in this world that need real attention and you are talking about this??? Dummies, I am goin out now to buy a SUV for my wife (i already have one).

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  19. #19 |  rochelle |  January 12th, 2003 at 6:42 pm

    I agree with TONY. I can’t believe how many people agree with Arianna. There are 1000 times worse things that fund terrorism than SUV. Maybe we should talk about the drug trade? Maybe we should worry about that we have the worst health care system in the industrialized world? One of the worst education systems in the industrialized world? Seriously, this is just a stunt to sell books. All of you need a life

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  20. #20 |  Kristi |  January 13th, 2003 at 11:34 am

    I believe that Arianna Huffington is a lunatic. I also think that she is getting some type of cut back promoting the Hybrid vehicle. Why should SUV owners be targeted? Does some guy that turned her down drive an SUV or what? Sounds like she has major issues or something. She has a 9,000 SF house. Does she sit there freezing b/c heating her house supports terrorism also? I don’t think so. I am fuming over these ridiculous statements she’s made. All she’s done is set some crazy, psycho free to hurt SUV owners in support of Americans that see SUV owners as terrorists. If I get hurt, or my children get hurt OR my car gets damaged in any way I will personally launch a class action lawsuit against her for the damages.

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  21. #21 |  Doug Turnbull |  January 14th, 2003 at 1:01 pm

    Umm, I agree with you that the argument is kind of silly, but I think you’ve got the math wrong.

    20% of the petroleum we get comes from the missle East. So 20% of the petroleum going into SUV’s comes from the Middle East, not 2% of 20%. That number is the fraction of the total amount of money spent on gas by the US that is spent by SUV owners and which goes to the Middle East.

    Agree with what you said after that, and the real issue is not the absolute amount of gas that SUV owners buy, but the amount they could save if they switched to a car with better gas mileage. That difference would be the amount you could say that SUV owners contribute to potential terrorist funding, if you were inclined to make that silly argument.

    And, as you point out, the net contribution from SUV owners is small compared to the overall US expenditure on oil–maybe 1% of it (if you assume that you could get a car with double the MPG of an SUV if you traded it in, which is far from certain.)

    And, I really hope I never see someone who makes both the argument that “oil money funds terrorists” and “poverty causes terrorism,” since they contradict each other.

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  22. #22 |  Rich |  January 22nd, 2003 at 6:13 pm

    Seriously, the people who have had their vehicles targeted because of this lunatic person talking stupid, They should all get together and file a lawsuit against her. If it happened to me, I would be getting a hold of people to help me out, cause this person is causing riots. If you read these entries and your SUV has been targeted, please leave a post here so we all can get together.

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  23. #23 |  nicholas |  January 29th, 2003 at 7:37 pm

    I agree that you can not prohibit a passenger vehicle, because there is no reason to. If SUV owners fund terrorists because they purchase gas for their vehicle, then everyone else with a vehicle funds terrorism. Her conclusion should be to stop the purchase of oil, entirely, because if any oil funds terrorism, then all oil funds terrorism. Instead, she focuses on a certain type of vehicle, ignoring the fact that most of the oil purchased in the United States goes into non-SUV’s. Her argument is fallacious because it suppresses this fact, choosing only to bring into account SUV’s, and not all other products which use crude oil. While she might have a point about the oil money going to terrorism, she also uses the fallacy of appeal to fear, attempting to scare individuals into believing that they might support terrorism. Overall, her arguments sucks it, and was probably used as something to garner attention, as this post and the previous few dozen posts have. So in her own way, she was successful, even if her argument was not.

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  24. #24 |  Digistain Productions |  January 30th, 2003 at 11:21 am

    IF YOU BUY GAS YOU SUPPORT TERRORISM!

    Check out this hilarious ad spoof at Ifilm.com. It was running over a month before the SUV ads hit the air:

    http://www.geocities.com/digistain

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  25. #25 |  phil |  August 12th, 2003 at 3:19 pm

    Anyone who agrees with Arianna huffington is an idiot.

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  26. #26 |  Ratchel Notlim |  October 27th, 2003 at 8:38 pm

    I am writing a letter to GM Hummer to complain and would like any news or facts opposing hummer. Please e-mail with any facts, ect.

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