Morning Links

Friday, November 2nd, 2012
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39 Responses to “Morning Links”

  1. #1 |  Marty | 

    I love how the Bal Harbour cops took their show on the road. now, it’s not just the feds, tsa, etc people around the country have to worry about…

  2. #2 |  Fred Mangels | 

    I’ll have to admit, after reading the testimony in the Stewart shooting case, it sounds like Stewart took this way beyond just shooting at police coming into his house. It reads as if he shot at them after they’d been wounded, retreated, and were in the street. Seems beyond just self defense to me.

  3. #3 |  Jason | 

    #2

    Only if the account given by the police is accurate that he actually did that. This site has taught me to greet the police side of a story with some skepticism, on account of how often they lie.

  4. #4 |  Yizmo Gizmo | 

    In 2010 alone, village cops took part in 23 cases leading to $8.2 million in seizures — all outside of Florida — without law enforcement agents making a single arrest, records show.
    —–
    Awesome, where do I sign up? Armed robbery, extortion, big money, travel perks and no paper trail.

  5. #5 |  Matt I. | 

    Thank you for posting the story about the landlord who got thrown in jail for reporting the meth. I was going to let you know about it but clearly you’re on top of things!

    So for my threadjack, I’m going say that I’d love to see an article that talks about the best way to make juries more rational. When we see outrageous jury decisions I have no doubt it’s because of the tremendous efforts that go into weeding out anyone even slightly unsympathetic to law an order.

    I remember a recent case where jurors (black) were excluded because they expressed that it was possible for a death penalty recipient to become reformed in prison.

    As far as I can see the only way to counter this is for all of us to always state that we:

    -believe police no matter what
    -have no problem applying the death penalty
    -think all criminals have no rights and deserve whatever happens to them.

    If every potential juror expressed thoughts like that the machine would eventually have to admit people who weren’t simply rubber stamps for the prosecution. Your thoughts?

  6. #6 |  capn_amurka | 

    @Fred

    It’s a stretch, I’d admit, but if *you* had shot and killed an officer in self-defense, how would you anticipate his fellow officers, including those outside, whether wounded, retreating or otherwise, to behave?

    Wouldn’t you expect them to be directing all lethal force available to them at you as the opportunity presents itself? Can’t a wounded/retreating officer still direct lethal force at you at any moment? Might you believe that they’d kill you if you tried to surrender?

    If the answer to those questions is “yes”, then I think the answer to “Can a reasonable person fear for his life from a wounded/retreating officer and therefore be justified in using lethal force in self-defense might also “yes.”

    In short, I think a good faith self defense argument can still be made.

  7. #7 |  Patrick H | 

    @Fred- I don’t know, if you have a group of men coming at you, wouldn’t you keep shooting until they weren’t a threat?

    My first thought is that this needs to happen more until these kinds of entries are stopped. My second thought is that in a just society (other than it not happening at all), this guy would be a hero stopping government thugs.

  8. #8 |  omar | 

    Only if the account given by the police is accurate that he actually did that. This site has taught me to greet the police side of a story with some skepticism, on account of how often they lie.

    IMHO, the false claims, lies, etc, usually come in the form of unprovables such as “furtive movements” and “threatening gestures”. The big lies, like planting evidence, require the activity be done in private.

    In this case, the cops make some pretty specific and testable claims. The article states after the shootout inside, Stewart went out his front door and started firing. If that’s true, he probably knew at this point these were police, not thieves (well, they were thieves, but you know what I mean). If the “outside shooting” story is a fabrication, one would need a pretty big conspiracy to make the story stick. In addition, there is a dead cop; you wouldn’t need to make this story up to secure a conviction. See: Frederick, Ryan.

  9. #9 |  Jason | 

    ‘If the “outside shooting” story is a fabrication, one would need a pretty big conspiracy to make the story stick.’

    Really? It seems to me that all that would be required would be to pick up some shell casings, drop them outside, and photograph the “evidence”.

  10. #10 |  H. Reardon | 

    From forfeiture article: “The rub is we don’t give it directly to Miami (DEA),” he said. “This is a very competitive business just like any other business. If you look at our stats, we’re killing ’em.”

    The perverse incentive is explicitly laid out. Cash forfeiture is not a means to punish the criminals, as was intended, but rather a means to launder ill gotten gains into the hands of law enforcement. Are these law enforcement agencies interested in stopping the drug trade? Of course not…it would be the end of their gravy train. Their focus is on money laundering because, as said by bank robber Willie Sutton, ‘that’s where the money is.’ Reading into the quote, asset forfeiture, not law enforcement, is the business of these people and agencies are in competition with each other. And the Bar Harbour police think a valid measure their effectiveness is the amount of cash they seize.

    It’s 5-o’clock somewhere.

  11. #11 |  omar | 

    Really? It seems to me that all that would be required would be to pick up some shell casings, drop them outside, and photograph the “evidence”.

    And get every member of the SWAT team to agree it happened, plus the ambulance drivers, plus the neighbors. There would also need to be no cameras or audio recordings. And everyone would need to keep their story straight while testifying under oath. I’m not saying fabricating wild and unnecessary stories is out of the question – it’s just unlikely. Why would the police do this?

  12. #12 |  omar | 

    From the Stewart article…

    Rounkles was taken by a patrol vehicle to the hospital.

    There likely was no ambulance driver. Strike that from my above comment.

  13. #13 |  Mario | 

    Stewart should claim he was “just following procedure.” Who can argue with that?

  14. #14 |  Rune | 

    @Omar

    You are misquoting the article

    [blockquote]While in the street, Draper testified that he looked towards the house and saw a silhouette standing in the front doorway beginning to take aim, then firing towards the injured men in the street.

    Draper said he felt the bullets ricochet around him, but he was never struck.

    “I thought I was going to get shot right there,” he said. “I’m just waiting, and then the shots stopped.”[/blockquote]

    So Stewart did [i]not[/i] fire gunshots outside the house and stopped shooting while using the front door as cover.

    Would it not make equally as much sense, that after firing the initial shots from this position, he realises that his is shooting at cops and stops?

  15. #15 |  Rune | 

    goddammit, I forgot I need to use html instead nd not bbcode here

  16. #16 |  Fred Mangels | 

    Capn amurka asked, “Might you believe that they’d kill you if you tried to surrender?“.

    It’s safe to say that the vast majority of people, when they realized they’d been firing at police, would throw up their hands and scream surrender. They wouldn’t continue a running gun battle.

    Whether a jury agrees with that depends on what other evidence is brought forward. That would likely include evidence of him firing at them while outside, among other things. Then the jury will have to decide if the proverbial “reasonable man” would have acted the same way under the same conditions.

    At this point it doesn’t seem like it to me, but this is just preliminary testimony. We’ll have to see what other evidence and testimony is introduced.

  17. #17 |  Jason | 

    “I’m not saying fabricating wild and unnecessary stories is out of the question – it’s just unlikely. Why would the police do this?”

    To ensure conviction. Look at comment #2. This piece of the story is what pushes the whole thing beyond misunderstanding (thinking criminals were attacking his house) and beyond the realm of self-defense.

    I’m not saying the police fabricated the outside shooting bit, I just refuse to take their word. Let’s see the camera footage and hear the neighbors’ testimony, if any of that exists.

  18. #18 |  Fred Mangels | 

    “Draper said he felt the bullets ricochet around him, but he was never struck.“.

    I don’t know how someone “feels” bullets ricochet without being hit but, if they can find evidence of bullets being fired from inside the house at the street- a bullet lodged in the street, for example- Stewart’s legal team will have a tough row to hoe, imo.

  19. #19 |  John C. Randolph | 

    Radley, good job smacking that idiot Ana Marie Cox around yesterday on twitter. I know she’s an Obama-fluffer, but trying to pass off such an obvious lie about the drug war was nothing short of asinine.

    -jcr

  20. #20 |  Charlie O | 

    I, personally, would love to read more stories in the news like the Ogden, UT raid. Daily, in fact. It’s time for Americans to fight back against the armed thugs who break down doors, kill our pets, kill our loved ones. Send them all to the hospital or the morgue. Either one suits me fine.

  21. #21 |  Burgers Allday | 

    I think the police are claiming that Stewart had 16 plants, not six.

    I don’t necessarily believe he had any plants.

    I am highly skeptical of the claim that he was shooting outside of his house, but we will see. Defo not willing to take the word of the police on that, and that is all we have so far.

    Without police video of the relevant parts of the raid, I am inclined to take Stewart’s work over the word of the police about any part the police chose not to video (or chose to destroy the video and then claim it never existed).

    We know from the Todd Blair case that this particular team owned operation helmet cams.

  22. #22 |  mud man | 

    Whatever, Stewart would be the guy I want in my platoon. How about that Ogden cop who emptied his gun without knowing what he was shooting? Of course there’s no budget to give these guys any real training.

  23. #23 |  MikeV | 

    Sounds like the Ogden police went looking for trouble and found a lot more than they wanted.

    Whatever Stewart’s motives really are, I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. Shooting armed men breaking into your home seems reasonable to me.

    If he was shooting from the house into the street, so what? Had they surrendered so that they were no longer a threat? Were their arms up in the air? Were they just attempting to retreat? Or were they still armed and shooting back at him? If they were shooting at him, he was still justified in shooting at them in self defense.

  24. #24 |  Mike | 

    The police consider traveling around the country stealing from people a business. Might we prosecute them under RICO?

  25. #25 |  divadab | 

    For six plants, this man Stewart suffered a military invasion of his home, which he courageously fought off. When will the rest of us figure out how to end this army of occupation which has taken over the USA? Consider this: the United States government has decreed most of its founders to be criminals. Why? Because they grew hemp. The hemp that clothed the Continental Army, made sails and cordage for the US Navy, and was woven into the first flag of the Republic.

    When did the redcoats re-take America? How can we get this government that is a tool of monopoly capital interests off our backs?

  26. #26 |  red | 

    Watch this video of a home owner driving off a home invasion gang:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&feature=related

    As seen in this video, charging after your attackers is normal human behavior. Once you have a group on the run you keep pursuing until they are out of your territory. Works the same way for both animals and humans.

    It’s likely that Stewart discovered that it was cops he was chasing once he ran to his front door and he probably never fired a shot after that point.

  27. #27 |  Burgers Allday | 

    Stacy Wilson tipped off police to Stewart’s alleged marijuana growing operation, which led the strike force to obtain a search warrant.

    “[Stewart] told me that if the police ever came to his house he would go out shooting. He would not go out alive,” Wilson testified.

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    Wilson said that Stewart thought that “the government and the police officers were all corrupt. He was very against the government. He didn’t like the IRS, he didn’t like police officers at all… that they were just power hungry and we lived in a police state.”

    On cross-examination, Wilson she said she “could not recall” if she told investigators prior to the police raid about Stewart’s dislike for the government and his comment about shooting them if they came into his home.

  28. #28 |  Fred Mangels | 

    Wilson she said she “could not recall” if she told investigators prior to the police raid about Stewart’s dislike for the government and his comment about shooting them if they came into his home.“.

    I’d say that says quite a bit about what his state of mind might have been at the time. Lets see how this is brought out in court.

  29. #29 |  Burgers Allday | 

    I’d say that says quite a bit about what his state of mind might have been at the time. Lets see how this is brought out in court.

    Stewart claims police shot first and that he did not know they were police.

    That says a lot more about what his state of mind might have been at the time.

  30. #30 |  Rob | 

    I don’t know how someone “feels” bullets ricochet without being hit but, if they can find evidence of bullets being fired from inside the house at the street- a bullet lodged in the street, for example- Stewart’s legal team will have a tough row to hoe, imo.

    Not to defend the police, but if you’ve ever been shot at then you know that bullets tend to have a very distinct sound when they’re flying pass you. They also create a pressure wave that you can feel if they’re close enough.

  31. #31 |  Fred Mangels | 

    Stewart claims police shot first and that he did not know they were police..

    Of course he’s going to say that. Maybe it is true, but it sounds to me as if he went way beyond that. At some point he most likely knew they were police but even took the fight to the street. That would fit in with what the informant supposedly told police earlier about him “going out shooting”.

    Again, this is just preliminary testimony. We shall see what develops.

  32. #32 |  Burgers Allday | 

    Fred,

    Have you watched the Todd Blair video?

  33. #33 |  Fred Mangels | 

    Have you watched the Todd Blair video?

    Not sure. It doesn’t ring a bell.

  34. #34 |  Burgers Allday | 

    http://youtu.be/WV6Bq8xeQrU

    I believe that the 2d policeman to come into the frame is the one that MDS allegedly shot a year or so later.

  35. #35 |  Fred Mangels | 

    Thanx. Can’t watch it right now. Have to do some real life stuff. Back later, tho.

  36. #36 |  Burgers Allday | 

    meant too say: –one that MDS allegedly killed–

  37. #37 |  Personanongrata | 

    The preliminary hearing is underway in the case of Matthew Stewart, the Ogden, Utah man who shot a police raid team as they broke into his home. Stewart had six marijuana plants inside.

    Three law enforcement personnel who executed the warrant that night all testified Wednesday that they yelled, “Police! Search warrant!” before entering Stewart’s home and while inside the house. They all said they were wearing some form of police identifier, whether it was a jacket with the word “police” written in bold, a bullet-proof vest with “police” printed on it, or a fleece vest with police insignia embroidered on the chest.

    Anyone can purchase “police” gear with the word “police” written in bold.

    Anyone can yell “Police! Search warrant!” before entering someones home.

    The “professionals” could have simply surveilled the home for a week and learned (there was no emergent need to rush in guns drawn in dark of night) Mr. Stewart’s schedule and then either knocked when he was known to be at home or approach (grab) him when he leaves/arrives home for work.

    The “professionals” should have just knocked.

  38. #38 |  demize! | 

    On the police shooting, I would never take the testimony of angry police with anything but suspicion. If the Philadelphia MOVE shootout shows is that cops have so little fire control that its always likely that they are shooting each other in these rare instances where there are outgoing rounds.

  39. #39 |  demize! | 

    #16 A sheep would do that, and soon be mutton. Cops dont arrest people that shoot at them.

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