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	<title>Comments on: “We Need a Drug Dog So We Can Seize More Property and Raise More Money”</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%E2%80%9Cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%E2%80%9D/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: Militant Libertarian &#187; “We Need a Drug Dog So We Can Seize More Property and Raise More Money”</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3753597</link>
		<dc:creator>Militant Libertarian &#187; “We Need a Drug Dog So We Can Seize More Property and Raise More Money”</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2012 06:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3753597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] from the Agitator [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from the Agitator [...]</p>
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		<title>By: PaulTheCabDriver</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3744642</link>
		<dc:creator>PaulTheCabDriver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 03:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3744642</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is an idea.  Leave a tiny piece of poisoned beef jerky under the seat of your car.  If a dog ever starts sniffing in it, he will snag it &amp; scarf it down without anyone knowing about it.  
Goodbye dog.
And if they charged you with killing the mutt, well, that would be about impossible to prove.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is an idea.  Leave a tiny piece of poisoned beef jerky under the seat of your car.  If a dog ever starts sniffing in it, he will snag it &amp; scarf it down without anyone knowing about it.<br />
Goodbye dog.<br />
And if they charged you with killing the mutt, well, that would be about impossible to prove.</p>
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		<title>By: Eapen Thampy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3743220</link>
		<dc:creator>Eapen Thampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2012 17:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3743220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bergman...the scenario you describe is possible only in a world where law enforcement is impartial and fair. IE, not the status quo.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bergman&#8230;the scenario you describe is possible only in a world where law enforcement is impartial and fair. IE, not the status quo.</p>
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		<title>By: Windy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3741575</link>
		<dc:creator>Windy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Aug 2012 06:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3741575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I ope someone knowledgeable responds to Bergman&#039;s (#5) comment.  I would really like to know the opinion of whether or not that would work as he queried.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I ope someone knowledgeable responds to Bergman&#8217;s (#5) comment.  I would really like to know the opinion of whether or not that would work as he queried.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3739915</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3739915</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I-24 is not much better in Rutherford County.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I-24 is not much better in Rutherford County.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3735272</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 21:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3735272</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#6 Jay:

&lt;blockquote&gt;That’s hardly what he’s saying. Granted, he’s implying that every stop he makes he asks for permission to search, but that’s drug interdiction training 101. He makes no mention of race or gender, not does he imply it. Just because he can legally seize property used in the delivery or transport of drugs, and frankly says so, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That is EXACTLY what he is saying. He doesn&#039;t have a shred of probable cause to stop cars on the context that they may have drugs or drug proceeds in them. Unless there&#039;s cocaine just flying out of the open trunk, or benjamins blowing out the windows... there is no possible way to know if any random car has drugs or drug proceeds in it. It all comes down to PROFILING.

The very act of stopping a car for suspicion of drug activity without probable cause is inherently illegal... so they PROFILE the possible targets, stop for whatever bullshit reason, then use the probable cause generator (K9) when the perp lawyers up (Does not consent to search.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#6 Jay:</p>
<blockquote><p>That’s hardly what he’s saying. Granted, he’s implying that every stop he makes he asks for permission to search, but that’s drug interdiction training 101. He makes no mention of race or gender, not does he imply it. Just because he can legally seize property used in the delivery or transport of drugs, and frankly says so, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it.</p></blockquote>
<p>That is EXACTLY what he is saying. He doesn&#8217;t have a shred of probable cause to stop cars on the context that they may have drugs or drug proceeds in them. Unless there&#8217;s cocaine just flying out of the open trunk, or benjamins blowing out the windows&#8230; there is no possible way to know if any random car has drugs or drug proceeds in it. It all comes down to PROFILING.</p>
<p>The very act of stopping a car for suspicion of drug activity without probable cause is inherently illegal&#8230; so they PROFILE the possible targets, stop for whatever bullshit reason, then use the probable cause generator (K9) when the perp lawyers up (Does not consent to search.)</p>
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		<title>By: marie</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3735051</link>
		<dc:creator>marie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3735051</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Just because he can legally seize property used in the delivery or transport of drugs, and frankly says so, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it.&lt;/i&gt;

Not quite. He can legally seize property &lt;b&gt;suspected&lt;/b&gt; or &lt;b&gt;accused of&lt;/b&gt; being used in the delivery or transport of drugs. They don&#039;t have to prove a damned thing. 

Nothing wrong with that, eh?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Just because he can legally seize property used in the delivery or transport of drugs, and frankly says so, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it.</i></p>
<p>Not quite. He can legally seize property <b>suspected</b> or <b>accused of</b> being used in the delivery or transport of drugs. They don&#8217;t have to prove a damned thing. </p>
<p>Nothing wrong with that, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Wild Will</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3734979</link>
		<dc:creator>Wild Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3734979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds like the Sheriff of Nottingham to me...Robin Paul to the rescue, eliminate the &#039;Drug War&#039;, eliminate the problem...no war - no money - no stops - done !]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like the Sheriff of Nottingham to me&#8230;Robin Paul to the rescue, eliminate the &#8216;Drug War&#8217;, eliminate the problem&#8230;no war &#8211; no money &#8211; no stops &#8211; done !</p>
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		<title>By: ALowe</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3734318</link>
		<dc:creator>ALowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3734318</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Highway Patrol? More like Highwaymen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Highway Patrol? More like Highwaymen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: theCL Report: &#8220;for the children&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3733758</link>
		<dc:creator>theCL Report: &#8220;for the children&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3733758</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] &quot;We Need a Drug Dog So We Can Seize More Property and Raise More Money&quot; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &quot;We Need a Drug Dog So We Can Seize More Property and Raise More Money&quot; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: AlgerHiss</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3733235</link>
		<dc:creator>AlgerHiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 10:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3733235</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#2...Charlie O...&quot;I will not drive I-40 across TN...&quot;

You have to drive I40 from Memphis to Knoxville to fully understand how correct Charlie O is: It is truly disgusting.

Like a rapist or pedophile awaiting their next victim, these multi-jurisdictional task forces, always in ‘roided out vehicles, are stunningly numerous.

We have no business blowing smoke up our own asses with phrases like “…land of the free and home of the brave”.

When we put up with this nonsense, we are neither.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#2&#8230;Charlie O&#8230;&#8221;I will not drive I-40 across TN&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>You have to drive I40 from Memphis to Knoxville to fully understand how correct Charlie O is: It is truly disgusting.</p>
<p>Like a rapist or pedophile awaiting their next victim, these multi-jurisdictional task forces, always in ‘roided out vehicles, are stunningly numerous.</p>
<p>We have no business blowing smoke up our own asses with phrases like “…land of the free and home of the brave”.</p>
<p>When we put up with this nonsense, we are neither.</p>
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		<title>By: Yizmo Gizmo</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3733002</link>
		<dc:creator>Yizmo Gizmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 09:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3733002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My  uncle is an officer  of  the law  and says K9 Units can  also sniff  out anarchists, illegal aliens, guns and  heathens. Anyone know if that&#039;s true?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My  uncle is an officer  of  the law  and says K9 Units can  also sniff  out anarchists, illegal aliens, guns and  heathens. Anyone know if that&#8217;s true?</p>
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		<title>By: Eapen Thampy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3732203</link>
		<dc:creator>Eapen Thampy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 04:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3732203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am glad to say that LEAP actually does have a working group on asset forfeiture! I expect to hear good things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am glad to say that LEAP actually does have a working group on asset forfeiture! I expect to hear good things.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3732103</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 04:17:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3732103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d genuinely like to hear a representative LEAP view of these sorts of practices. I don&#039;t mean I want to hear them say, &quot;Regulate drugs like alcohol, and the problem disappears.&quot; I want to hear them address revenue-generation and law-circumvention tactics, irrespective of specifics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d genuinely like to hear a representative LEAP view of these sorts of practices. I don&#8217;t mean I want to hear them say, &#8220;Regulate drugs like alcohol, and the problem disappears.&#8221; I want to hear them address revenue-generation and law-circumvention tactics, irrespective of specifics.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3731229</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3731229</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The mere accusation is enough for a default judgment in favor of seizure; The property owner must go to court to prove not only ownership, but also that the property was not used in a crime (often an impossibility).&quot;

Remember the saying &quot;you can&#039;t prove a negative&quot;?  The previous statement is a prime example of it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The mere accusation is enough for a default judgment in favor of seizure; The property owner must go to court to prove not only ownership, but also that the property was not used in a crime (often an impossibility).&#8221;</p>
<p>Remember the saying &#8220;you can&#8217;t prove a negative&#8221;?  The previous statement is a prime example of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3731208</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3731208</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Aaaaand another kick to the groin.  Unfortunately, people in my neck of the woods tend to think this kind of thing is a-okay.  As a matter of fact, if you question authority in any way, you must be unamrrrcan.  Sofa king depressing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaaaand another kick to the groin.  Unfortunately, people in my neck of the woods tend to think this kind of thing is a-okay.  As a matter of fact, if you question authority in any way, you must be unamrrrcan.  Sofa king depressing.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3731201</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3731201</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s hardly what he&#039;s saying. Granted, he&#039;s implying that every stop he makes he asks for permission to search, but that&#039;s drug interdiction training 101.  He makes no mention of race or gender, not does he imply it.  Just because he can legally seize property used in the delivery or transport of drugs, and frankly says so, doesn&#039;t mean there&#039;s anything wrong with it. 

That said, if it&#039;s the same entity that failed to control and improperly used their seized inventory, that should be looked at and punished severely. We in LE can be idiots and do more harm than good to our reputations because of crap like that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s hardly what he&#8217;s saying. Granted, he&#8217;s implying that every stop he makes he asks for permission to search, but that&#8217;s drug interdiction training 101.  He makes no mention of race or gender, not does he imply it.  Just because he can legally seize property used in the delivery or transport of drugs, and frankly says so, doesn&#8217;t mean there&#8217;s anything wrong with it. </p>
<p>That said, if it&#8217;s the same entity that failed to control and improperly used their seized inventory, that should be looked at and punished severely. We in LE can be idiots and do more harm than good to our reputations because of crap like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Bergman</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3731173</link>
		<dc:creator>Bergman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3731173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Asset forfeiture laws tend to trigger on any criminal behavior, not just drugs (though those sorts of forfeitures are the most common justification).
 
Title 18, Chapter 13, Sections 241 and 242 are laws that make it a federal crime to violate a citizen&#039;s rights.  The Supreme Court has ruled that an unconstitutional law is null and void from the moment of inception, not the moment a constitutional challenge succeeds.
 
In an asset forfeiture case, the usual 4th, 5th and 14th amendment rules of evidence and due process are not applied to whether the asset is seized, since citizens have those rights, not land or objects.
 
The mere accusation is enough for a default judgment in favor of seizure; The property owner must go to court to prove not only ownership, but also that the property was not used in a crime (often an impossibility).  The crime not being committed by the owner is not a defense against the seizure, there have been numerous cases where a car thief stole a car and the car was forfeited from the actual owner because the thief had illegal drugs when caught.
 
So it occurs to me to wonder: If you accuse a police department as a whole of violating 18USC241 and individual officers of violating 18USC242, assert that the police station itself is part of their criminal activities, could you start a forfeiture action against the property?
 
How about a police car that was being driven by an officer who lost a 42USC1983 lawsuit?  The officer&#039;s sidearm?
 
Such fascinating possibilities...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asset forfeiture laws tend to trigger on any criminal behavior, not just drugs (though those sorts of forfeitures are the most common justification).</p>
<p>Title 18, Chapter 13, Sections 241 and 242 are laws that make it a federal crime to violate a citizen&#8217;s rights.  The Supreme Court has ruled that an unconstitutional law is null and void from the moment of inception, not the moment a constitutional challenge succeeds.</p>
<p>In an asset forfeiture case, the usual 4th, 5th and 14th amendment rules of evidence and due process are not applied to whether the asset is seized, since citizens have those rights, not land or objects.</p>
<p>The mere accusation is enough for a default judgment in favor of seizure; The property owner must go to court to prove not only ownership, but also that the property was not used in a crime (often an impossibility).  The crime not being committed by the owner is not a defense against the seizure, there have been numerous cases where a car thief stole a car and the car was forfeited from the actual owner because the thief had illegal drugs when caught.</p>
<p>So it occurs to me to wonder: If you accuse a police department as a whole of violating 18USC241 and individual officers of violating 18USC242, assert that the police station itself is part of their criminal activities, could you start a forfeiture action against the property?</p>
<p>How about a police car that was being driven by an officer who lost a 42USC1983 lawsuit?  The officer&#8217;s sidearm?</p>
<p>Such fascinating possibilities&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie O</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3731171</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie O</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3731171</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seeing as how it&#039;s so far across Tennessee going East/West, it&#039;s the perfect setup for highway thievery. I will not drive I-40 across TN for that reason. There have been numerous reports on television in that state describing how they don&#039;t stop the east bound traffic looking for drugs, they prefer westbound looking for the cash.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing as how it&#8217;s so far across Tennessee going East/West, it&#8217;s the perfect setup for highway thievery. I will not drive I-40 across TN for that reason. There have been numerous reports on television in that state describing how they don&#8217;t stop the east bound traffic looking for drugs, they prefer westbound looking for the cash.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Seaton</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/23/%e2%80%9cwe-need-a-drug-dog-so-we-can-seize-more-property-and-raise-more-money%e2%80%9d/comment-page-1/#comment-3731151</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Seaton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26263#comment-3731151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Maybe their city council should watch Breakfast in Collinsville and see how cops behave with their drug dogs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe their city council should watch Breakfast in Collinsville and see how cops behave with their drug dogs.</p>
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