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	<title>Comments on: SWAT Raid Roundup</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: bruce strong</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3698264</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce strong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 08:57:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3698264</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[now, if it were you or me that made such a mistake do you think we would get off with just a fine?
until these police departments are held seriously to be responsible for their shoddiness this type of travesty will go on and on.
we are all equal under the law.  fairytale time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>now, if it were you or me that made such a mistake do you think we would get off with just a fine?<br />
until these police departments are held seriously to be responsible for their shoddiness this type of travesty will go on and on.<br />
we are all equal under the law.  fairytale time.</p>
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		<title>By: Militant Libertarian &#187; SWAT Raid Roundup</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3692344</link>
		<dc:creator>Militant Libertarian &#187; SWAT Raid Roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3692344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] from The Agitator [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] from The Agitator [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Defense against tyranny &#124; Cryptic Philosopher</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3691569</link>
		<dc:creator>Defense against tyranny &#124; Cryptic Philosopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3691569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] College Station police now send SWAT teams to serve legal documents? It would not be unprecedented. Hopefully a revolution will not be started by gun-toting mouth breathers who can&#8217;t see past [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] College Station police now send SWAT teams to serve legal documents? It would not be unprecedented. Hopefully a revolution will not be started by gun-toting mouth breathers who can&#8217;t see past [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bw1</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3687989</link>
		<dc:creator>bw1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3687989</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your challenge to guess Cooper&#039;s occupation would play better if your excerpts didn&#039;t mention his handing over his badge.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your challenge to guess Cooper&#8217;s occupation would play better if your excerpts didn&#8217;t mention his handing over his badge.</p>
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		<title>By: Russ 2000</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3687232</link>
		<dc:creator>Russ 2000</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 15:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3687232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;“Was it serious? Yes. Was it malicious? No.”&lt;/i&gt;

If he hadn&#039;t been playing on the side that tries every day to weaken the &quot;malice aforethought&quot; defense, he might have a point.

Besides, half-assed police work IS malice aforethought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>“Was it serious? Yes. Was it malicious? No.”</i></p>
<p>If he hadn&#8217;t been playing on the side that tries every day to weaken the &#8220;malice aforethought&#8221; defense, he might have a point.</p>
<p>Besides, half-assed police work IS malice aforethought.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave Krueger</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3687047</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Krueger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3687047</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hard to have much sympathy for a cop who became a victim of the same tactics that non-cops are subjected to everyday.  I&#039;d be willing to bet he still doesn&#039;t see much wrong with the practice aside from the fact that, since he&#039;s a cop, it shouldn&#039;t have happened to him.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hard to have much sympathy for a cop who became a victim of the same tactics that non-cops are subjected to everyday.  I&#8217;d be willing to bet he still doesn&#8217;t see much wrong with the practice aside from the fact that, since he&#8217;s a cop, it shouldn&#8217;t have happened to him.</p>
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		<title>By: Deoxy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3687044</link>
		<dc:creator>Deoxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 14:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3687044</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;“Yes your Honor, my client did shoot and kill 5 heavily armed police officers that burst into his home unannounced in the dark of night. Was it serious? Yes. Was it malicious? No.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Legally speaking, if officers do a raid on the wrong house, wouldn&#039;t it be entirely legal for the homeowner to kill them in self defense?

I mean, they have no warrant and no exigent circumstances.  Legally, how are they any different from home invaders?

Yes, I know that, de facto, they are the nobility and we are the peasants, that the courts will find a way to make you pay.  I&#039;m talking about the actual law.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>“Yes your Honor, my client did shoot and kill 5 heavily armed police officers that burst into his home unannounced in the dark of night. Was it serious? Yes. Was it malicious? No.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Legally speaking, if officers do a raid on the wrong house, wouldn&#8217;t it be entirely legal for the homeowner to kill them in self defense?</p>
<p>I mean, they have no warrant and no exigent circumstances.  Legally, how are they any different from home invaders?</p>
<p>Yes, I know that, de facto, they are the nobility and we are the peasants, that the courts will find a way to make you pay.  I&#8217;m talking about the actual law.</p>
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		<title>By: Collin</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3686582</link>
		<dc:creator>Collin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 11:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3686582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[21 comments to a link about a made up informant and no Fuzzy Dunlop reference?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>21 comments to a link about a made up informant and no Fuzzy Dunlop reference?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Burgers Allday</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3686005</link>
		<dc:creator>Burgers Allday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3686005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, yes:  hurrah for Lt.  Murphy.  Hero.  Good on Mr. Balko for alerting us (I wasn&#039;t reading about the Sikh shooting because I didn&#039;t realize that there was anything at all interesting about it).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, yes:  hurrah for Lt.  Murphy.  Hero.  Good on Mr. Balko for alerting us (I wasn&#8217;t reading about the Sikh shooting because I didn&#8217;t realize that there was anything at all interesting about it).</p>
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		<title>By: Burgers Allday</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3685998</link>
		<dc:creator>Burgers Allday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 08:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3685998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I guess it’s ridiculous of me to think that judges shouldn’t be giving out search warrants on nothing but the tip of a CI. I have always wrongly thought that more evidence would be needed to justify allowing the state to just walk into citizens homes.&lt;/i&gt;

This is an under-discussed point.  Back when I went to law school they were called CRI&#039;s for Confidential Reliable Informants because policemen generally considered that they had to make some kind of falsifiable showing that the informant was reliable.  I think that warrant application papers still make a point of alleging that the informant is &quot;reliable,&quot; but it is no longer expected to be a falsifiable showing.  Probably mostly a function of ex-prosecutors now overwhelmingly being the deciders on warrant applications.

In the Chicago case, the policeman only won because the judge let the policeman explore the issue of the reliability of of the CI before trial.  In the MN case, the judge might or might not let the family explore facts relating to the reliability of the CI (before trial and then during).  I could definitely imagine the MN judge, when the time comes, saying, &quot;plaintiffs have not presented any evidence to show that the CI was unreliable, so summary judgement on the issue of whether the warrant was obtained based on dishonest premises in violation of 4A.&quot;  Of course, plaintiffs can only show that the CI is unreliable (or non-existent) if the judge allows meaningful discovery on this issue.  BTW, if it does go down that way in MN (and I hope it doesn&#039;t), this actually would not be &quot;qualified immunity.&quot;  It would simply be summary judgement based on &quot;no Constitutional violation shown.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I guess it’s ridiculous of me to think that judges shouldn’t be giving out search warrants on nothing but the tip of a CI. I have always wrongly thought that more evidence would be needed to justify allowing the state to just walk into citizens homes.</i></p>
<p>This is an under-discussed point.  Back when I went to law school they were called CRI&#8217;s for Confidential Reliable Informants because policemen generally considered that they had to make some kind of falsifiable showing that the informant was reliable.  I think that warrant application papers still make a point of alleging that the informant is &#8220;reliable,&#8221; but it is no longer expected to be a falsifiable showing.  Probably mostly a function of ex-prosecutors now overwhelmingly being the deciders on warrant applications.</p>
<p>In the Chicago case, the policeman only won because the judge let the policeman explore the issue of the reliability of of the CI before trial.  In the MN case, the judge might or might not let the family explore facts relating to the reliability of the CI (before trial and then during).  I could definitely imagine the MN judge, when the time comes, saying, &#8220;plaintiffs have not presented any evidence to show that the CI was unreliable, so summary judgement on the issue of whether the warrant was obtained based on dishonest premises in violation of 4A.&#8221;  Of course, plaintiffs can only show that the CI is unreliable (or non-existent) if the judge allows meaningful discovery on this issue.  BTW, if it does go down that way in MN (and I hope it doesn&#8217;t), this actually would not be &#8220;qualified immunity.&#8221;  It would simply be summary judgement based on &#8220;no Constitutional violation shown.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: j a higginbotham</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3685157</link>
		<dc:creator>j a higginbotham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 03:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3685157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[off topic

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-stops-when-pulled-over-30186.html

&quot;If a police car is following you with its siren blaring or emergency lights flashing, pull over to the right safely and quickly. Pull over in a way that will be most likely to calm down an angry or annoyed traffic officer. Use your turn signal to indicate any lane changes from left to right, and slow down fairly quickly, but not so quickly that the officer will have to brake to avoid hitting you. Pull over as far to the right as possible so that, when the officer comes up to your widow,&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>off topic</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-stops-when-pulled-over-30186.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-stops-when-pulled-over-30186.html</a></p>
<p>&#8220;If a police car is following you with its siren blaring or emergency lights flashing, pull over to the right safely and quickly. Pull over in a way that will be most likely to calm down an angry or annoyed traffic officer. Use your turn signal to indicate any lane changes from left to right, and slow down fairly quickly, but not so quickly that the officer will have to brake to avoid hitting you. Pull over as far to the right as possible so that, when the officer comes up to your widow,&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Hummel</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3685044</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Hummel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 02:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3685044</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[RE: Chicago raid

A cops gets some taste of his own medicine. Good.
Department and individual pigs get to pay punitive damages. Good.

Too bad the wife and kids had to go thru the ordeal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE: Chicago raid</p>
<p>A cops gets some taste of his own medicine. Good.<br />
Department and individual pigs get to pay punitive damages. Good.</p>
<p>Too bad the wife and kids had to go thru the ordeal.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Kline</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3685020</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Kline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 02:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3685020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I guess it&#039;s ridiculous of me to think that judges shouldn&#039;t be giving out search warrants on nothing but the tip of a CI. I have always wrongly thought that more evidence would be needed to justify allowing the state to just walk into citizens homes. We get the judges we deserve when we don&#039;t hold them accountable for this kind of stuff.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it&#8217;s ridiculous of me to think that judges shouldn&#8217;t be giving out search warrants on nothing but the tip of a CI. I have always wrongly thought that more evidence would be needed to justify allowing the state to just walk into citizens homes. We get the judges we deserve when we don&#8217;t hold them accountable for this kind of stuff.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: nigmalg</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3684873</link>
		<dc:creator>nigmalg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2012 01:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3684873</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Burgers,

I think you&#039;re right about the cops blaming the CI for the mistake. That&#039;s why the defendants weren&#039;t able to suppress the gun evidence. It was technically the &quot;correct house&quot;, at least according to the thorough and thoughtful investigation conducted by the crackhead.

It&#039;s a wonder why all raids don&#039;t vest all responsibility to a confidential informant. It&#039;s so much more convenient.

*sigh*]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Burgers,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right about the cops blaming the CI for the mistake. That&#8217;s why the defendants weren&#8217;t able to suppress the gun evidence. It was technically the &#8220;correct house&#8221;, at least according to the thorough and thoughtful investigation conducted by the crackhead.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a wonder why all raids don&#8217;t vest all responsibility to a confidential informant. It&#8217;s so much more convenient.</p>
<p>*sigh*</p>
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		<title>By: SP</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3684657</link>
		<dc:creator>SP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 23:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3684657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Yes your Honor, my client did shoot and kill 5 heavily armed police officers that burst into his home unannounced in the dark of night.  Was it serious? Yes.  Was it malicious? No.&quot;  Like that would ever fly.  While the outcome of the actual case is some small consolation, I believe that the verdict was mainly based on the fact that the victim was a police officer.  

This incident, however, raises some interesting questions:

Did the raiding officers check to see who the resident at this location was supposed to be?

Why didn&#039;t they just arrest him as he reported for work?  This would have exposed less people to any potential violence.  Oh that&#039;s right, kids and pets are expendable.

Will the lying officers be fired?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Yes your Honor, my client did shoot and kill 5 heavily armed police officers that burst into his home unannounced in the dark of night.  Was it serious? Yes.  Was it malicious? No.&#8221;  Like that would ever fly.  While the outcome of the actual case is some small consolation, I believe that the verdict was mainly based on the fact that the victim was a police officer.  </p>
<p>This incident, however, raises some interesting questions:</p>
<p>Did the raiding officers check to see who the resident at this location was supposed to be?</p>
<p>Why didn&#8217;t they just arrest him as he reported for work?  This would have exposed less people to any potential violence.  Oh that&#8217;s right, kids and pets are expendable.</p>
<p>Will the lying officers be fired?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Leon Wolfeson</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3684034</link>
		<dc:creator>Leon Wolfeson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3684034</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@5 - Right, multiple shooters can never go wrong, when there&#039;s no training or standards, in a situation which can tax Special Forces. Again...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@5 &#8211; Right, multiple shooters can never go wrong, when there&#8217;s no training or standards, in a situation which can tax Special Forces. Again&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: SJE</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3683959</link>
		<dc:creator>SJE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3683959</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also interesting that a police officer cannot distinguish between a police raid and armed criminals.  I&#039;d bring that up next time a home owner shoots a police officer in one of these ill-considered raids.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also interesting that a police officer cannot distinguish between a police raid and armed criminals.  I&#8217;d bring that up next time a home owner shoots a police officer in one of these ill-considered raids.</p>
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		<title>By: SJE</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3683953</link>
		<dc:creator>SJE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3683953</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I doubt the outcome would have been so good for the family if the head of the house was not a cop.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt the outcome would have been so good for the family if the head of the house was not a cop.</p>
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		<title>By: Stormy Dragon</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3683944</link>
		<dc:creator>Stormy Dragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:22:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3683944</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[FBI sends an informant into a California mosque to act as an agent provocateur.  &lt;I&gt;This American Life&lt;/I&gt; covers the story of what happened when the mosque tried reporting the informant to the FBI:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/471/the-convert]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FBI sends an informant into a California mosque to act as an agent provocateur.  <i>This American Life</i> covers the story of what happened when the mosque tried reporting the informant to the FBI:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/471/the-convert" rel="nofollow">http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/471/the-convert</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/08/12/swat-raid-roundup/comment-page-1/#comment-3683897</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2012 19:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=26045#comment-3683897</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#9 Nancy Lebovitz

&lt;blockquote&gt;Bob, it’s so hard to tell when you’re being cynical enough and in the right direction.

On reconsideration, I’m going with the boring option of the address being random (whether from an invented informant or someone who lied to stay out of jail) as most likely.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You are probably correct. Ockham&#039;s razor and all.

All in all, the end causality here is probably just lax police policy. If your system is set up to allow short cuts like this, (No investigation, no need to document your informant, etc.) you advantage the people with the willingness to take those shortcuts. In a perverse way, that laxness is all win for the police, lots of raids means lots of police jobs and lots of overtime. Minimal investigation requirements means raids can be stacked up like cord wood waiting to be executed. It&#039;s no longer about &quot;justice&quot; but about keeping the police machine busy and justifying increased budgets.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#9 Nancy Lebovitz</p>
<blockquote><p>Bob, it’s so hard to tell when you’re being cynical enough and in the right direction.</p>
<p>On reconsideration, I’m going with the boring option of the address being random (whether from an invented informant or someone who lied to stay out of jail) as most likely.</p></blockquote>
<p>You are probably correct. Ockham&#8217;s razor and all.</p>
<p>All in all, the end causality here is probably just lax police policy. If your system is set up to allow short cuts like this, (No investigation, no need to document your informant, etc.) you advantage the people with the willingness to take those shortcuts. In a perverse way, that laxness is all win for the police, lots of raids means lots of police jobs and lots of overtime. Minimal investigation requirements means raids can be stacked up like cord wood waiting to be executed. It&#8217;s no longer about &#8220;justice&#8221; but about keeping the police machine busy and justifying increased budgets.</p>
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