Morning Links

Wednesday, May 16th, 2012

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258 Responses to “Morning Links”

  1. #1 |  AnonymousCoward | 

    @zendingo #248

    Or for that matter that he was even high at the time, because obviously when someone is no longer high all of the THC in their system magically disappears.

    Considering this is the same guy who says that a pistol is better than a long arm in close combat leads me to believe you’re squared off against an autodidactic polymath of such epic proportions that continuing the discussion will probably be unfruitful.

  2. #2 |  Deoxy | 

    Zimmerman took the law into his incapable hands. That is my problem.

    No, you ASSUME Zimmerman took the law into his own hands – that is indeed a problem, and it’s YOUR problem.

    Up to the point of the altercation (some time after the 911 call), Zimmerman didn’t “take the law into his own hands” any more than ANY concerned citizen watching out for his community does… and every decent society wants that.

    Did he start the actual fight? I DON’T KNOW, and neither does anyone else (except Zimmerman, who may be lying, and Martin, who is dead).

    But the REASONS you are condemning him are wrong, unethical, and immoral. Full Stop.

    Accusing me of racist leanings is further proof of your lack of empathy

    No, it’s me trying desperately to understand where you’re pulling stuff from and running out of other options.

    you are spinning off further and further into your own little world on this

    No, I’m checking the actual laws, and investigating actual moral and ethical requirements and standards. And I’m giving the full benefit of the doubt, despite my own (inherently biased, like everyone else) opinion of what probably happened – whichever one started the altercation is the guilty party.

    That’s the law, that’s the ethics, that’s the morality of what happened. All the stuff you’re complaining about and citing as reason it’s Zimmerman’s fault are legal, ethical, and moral.

    Who’s in their “own little world on this”?

    This Zimmerman guy was not trained in any way to do what he did

    Right, only trust trained professionals to protect your stuff! Nobody who isn’t “Ex Army” or a “Hunter” should EVER try to protect themselves or their stuff! And certainly not anyone else’s stuff either, no matter what level of trust those other people put in them!

    It is my neighbor’s responsibility to protect their houses and cars from break ins.

    Which they were doing… by working together and trusting each other to watch each other’s stuff, since no one who actually works or otherwise ever leaves their house can be on guard 24/7.

    The fistfight would not have even started if Zimmerman had been sitting in his living room having a life of his own.

    Nor would it have happened if aliens had abducted either one of them before hand! Darn aliens, not doing their job…

    To answer that a little more seriously, I’d HATE to have you as a neighbor:

    “Hey look, honey – somebody’s breaking in to the neighbor’s house and stealing all their stuff. Well, those thieves better be glad they didn’t break in over here, because I’d shoot them. Now, what’ on TV?”

    Seriously, you’re BLAMING Zimmerman for being a responsible member of a community, trying to help his neighbors out, watching out for the thieves plaguing the community. It’s about one step removed from blaming him for hurting Martin’s fist with his nose.

    Whoever started it (M or Z) is to blame for the actual altercation and killing – what happened up to then was at worst a case of fairly reasonable mutual misunderstanding.

    Considering this is the same guy who says that a pistol is better than a long arm in close combat

    In melee combat, such as a fist-fight or a grapple, you’d rather have a long arm (which works basically like a funny shaped club, for all you’re likely to be able to shoot them with it) instead of a pistol (which has a short barrel for just such a purpose)? Really?

    I mean, goodness, all those professional military types, who openly carry both kinds of weapons, are really just idiots, since the long arm is superior to the pistol, even in the type of situation the pistol is specifically meant for? Ok, then.

    When you have no other argument, a nice-sounding, sarcastic ad hominem is always a great retort, and if you can throw big words in there, hey, all the better.

    Or for that matter that he was even high at the time, because obviously when someone is no longer high all of the THC in their system magically disappears.

    Whether he was actually high at the time is likely another one of those things in case that we can never know; the point was how reasonable or unreasonable it might have been for Zimmerman to think that Martin was “on drugs or something.”

    Drugs in the system make that imminently more reasonable. I don’t see how that’s even up for discussion.

  3. #3 |  Deoxy | 

    because having THC in your blood stream is exactly the same as being hyped up on PCP or Cocaine.

    No, because “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something” is pretty darn reasonable, and not evil evil “profiling”, if the guy he’s talking about is actually on drugs. That is all, no more, no less – the claim of self-defense still rests on who started the altercation.

  4. #4 |  zendingo | 

    @253 | Deoxy |

    “No, because “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something” is pretty darn reasonable, and not evil evil “profiling”, if the guy he’s talking about is actually on drugs. ”

    and what does someone who is on drugs look like? how do i identify their behavior? what patterns are visible?

    has george zimmerman specified what exactly made trayvon martins behavior so suspicious?

  5. #5 |  Ariel | 

    My own two cents: most of the people that are giving Zimmerman the “reasonable doubt” are sticking to what is known however poorly it is known. The other side just makes shit up from “stalking” to “vigilante”, from “he provoked by having a gun” (concealed carry for god’s sake Martin had x-ray vision at night?) to “it was a legal order he disobeyed” (I read the transcript, that is just a lie if you read the transcript too, if newspapers I can understand) to so many BS scenarios that my head spins.

    It only matters who started the violence and left the other with no choice. If Zimmerman did, may he rot in prison, if Martin did, well teenagers make bad decisions. Unfortunately, if Zimmerman did we may never know that he did, but I won’t go into the sickness of “he must have cuz Martin’s dead”.

    Anyone ever watch “The Boondocks”?

  6. #6 |  Bobby Black | 

    Deoxy. You are just looking to argue, and you fail to see outside your own skull what myself and many others are trying to say though willful belligerence. You claim there is some sort of right to everything you say, and are willing to project your own assumptions of my state of mind including throwing race about as if that is some sort of sticking point with me. Truly a sad thing that you have this kind of confrontational attitude about this, and are willing to bandy such tripe about as some sort of factual reasoning, and I see you as wrong on most things on this subject. That’s life Deox. Try to live with that won’t you? i hope you don’t lose much sleep while typing out your 90 page retort to the World According To You. You may have the last word, as i see how important that kind of thing is to you….so yammer on my friend. I am just glad we aren’t the jury deliberation room together. Peace and chicken grease.

  7. #7 |  Ariel | 

    Bobby Black,

    You are in the group that just makes shit up, all said and done. Sorry.

    So Deoxy may, just may, have pegged you. I’ve read this whole damn thread, the transcript, newspaper articles (which are really, really poor on presenting the actual facts, just read in my state paper “he was ordered” when he wasn’t), and other blogs, pro or con.

    It still comes down to who started the violence and left the other with no choice. Not hurt feelings.

  8. #8 |  AnonymousCoward | 

    In melee combat, such as a fist-fight or a grapple, you’d rather have a long arm (which works basically like a funny shaped club, for all you’re likely to be able to shoot them with it) instead of a pistol (which has a short barrel for just such a purpose)? Really?

    Really.

    I mean, goodness, all those professional military types, who openly carry both kinds of weapons, are really just idiots, since the long arm is superior to the pistol, even in the type of situation the pistol is specifically meant for? Ok, then.

    Can you link to some training manuals which support your position? Or some experts in self defense that support you? Or even a movie where the tactical military guys put away their long arms and start clearing rooms with pistols?

    Because I think you’re just prognosticating, and actually have no background in the topic nor have you done any research.

    When you have no other argument, a nice-sounding, sarcastic ad hominem is always a great retort, and if you can throw big words in there, hey, all the better.

    I’m showing a pattern of behaviour. If you have a history of making definitive statements without any expertise or backing I think that’s very germane to consideration of your other arguments.

    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

    If I said you have an ugly face, or you consort with prostitutes that would be and ad hom. As it stands you’re pulling your statement about pistols being better in self defense out of one of your orifices, and your only justification is what you think sensible.

    Disarming someone with a pistol is much easier than disarming someone with a long arm, provided that person has a modicum of expertise with both. The long arms are easier to use as shooting weapons, and while neither is an ideal melee weapon having a big club is much better than a small club.

    If you can provide some of the info I asked for earlier, or perhaps a statistical comparison of pistol users who were disarmed or shot with their own weapon versus long arms I might start considering your opinion on other matters. Without that, I think that you’re good at argumentation but that your arguments aren’t necessarily informed ones (read: the THC gambit).