I totally agree with you on the “one attack vector” part, and I completely agree that a human being should womp any single dog 99.9% of the time (if they keep their head).

I am still not required to take that .1% risk to myself to protect your unsecured property.

The landowner gets an attitude about the trespassing dogs, an argument ensues, and the landowner tells his brother by cell phone to shoot the dogs.

In this case (from your description), the dogs’ owner is present to deal with them personally, there’s not even the slightest claim that the dogs are threatening anyone, and the landowner had them shot, essentially, out of spite.

That is, he shot them for reasons other that protecting himself.

Not sure that should be criminal (vandalism equivalent, perhaps?), but certainly in the wrong.

I don’t know which small dogs you’re working with, but I carried mail for three years, and I guarantee the dogs I dealt with were more interested in eating my face than the ones in any kennel. I’m not saying they aren’t a small threat, but any remotely physically fit person can pin a dog in seconds. Human beings are damned strong. You smack a hand in from one side, grab an ear/throat/jaw and pin the fucker. I’ve held down probably a hundred dogs like this, some weighing almost as much as I do (~180lb). NONE of them were a real danger if I knew they were coming. Human hands are faster than they are, human hands are fuckall stronger than they are, and dogs have only a single vector for attack. Those teeth get into you it’s a problem, but they can’t bite left and right even if they (and you) think they can. They bite straight ahead, period. This vector is extremely simple to defeat, you don’t even need any training: You sweep an arm in from either side. If you can’t get a grip it knocks the dog away and if they try again you repeat until you get an ear. Ears are best, put a thumb in their ear canal and pin them down. You might get scratched, but if they kick? Punch them in the ribs a few times. They all settle down after that.

…I’ve posted this on this site before. I’m slow, lack any real training, and not terribly strong. Dogs are only a problem in packs or if you’re afraid of them. Small dogs are nearly zero on the problem scale even in packs, though they are faster than the larger ones and harder to get hold of.

I’ve euthanized a pet cat by gun in the past, so I have no real problem with shooting an animal. In this case, I doubt I would have been found at fault had I shot the dog, hell, it was a pit bull. But that thought never entered my mind.

“I didn’t want to harm the dogs, but I had no choice,” Feigles wrote in a statement to Woltz.

He shoots some yippy dogs that he knows belong to a neighbor because that are nipping at his heels. What a dick. And i hate yippy dogs.

“Call the authorities.” Good one.

Radley, I know your just making a joke an the expense of trigger happy, puppy slaying LEOs. But in this instance, there really was a better course of action for this guy.

BSK @7 – your comparison to the Trayvon case is spot on. Is this what the Stand Your Ground statute is meant to protect? That merely feeling uncomfortable at the presence of another being on your property or in your neighborhood gives you license to use deadly force in an act of self-defense?

http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=349332

From what I was told, the dog owners approached the land owner to enter his property to retrieve the dogs. The landowners brother goes to where the dogs have treed a raccoon. The landowner gets an attitude about the trespassing dogs, an argument ensues, and the landowner tells his brother by cell phone to shoot the dogs.

2nd Verse:

“That’s one law for me, and one for you!”

Pets are PROPERTY. Shooting your dog is legally equivalent to shooting your car.

If your car is rolling onto my property, I can protect my property but whatever means is necessary to prevent any bodily harm to myself. I am not legally required to risk myself in ANY way. I am NOT required to be “in fear of my life”.

I can quite legally, and quite happily as a conscientious libertarian, shoot your dog rather than risk being bitten (assuming it’s on my property, etc – that is, that I didn’t start the problem).

The leash law example was simply pointing out that, even in the current legal environment (where libertarian principles are primarily treated as excrement to be disgustedly removed from the bottom of your shoe after a good trampling), the dog owner was the one at fault.

That you apparently can’t understand any of that makes you the idiot here – calling you a troll was being politely assuming you were capable of higher reasoning and simply choosing not to engage in it.

And you know what they say about assuming… of course you do – you’ve already taken care of your part of “you and me”.

That said, I think that nice people ought to try other measures first, if it seems reasonably possible.

If you can tackle a dog, you can pin it and put a foot or a forearm across its windpipe, allowing you to prevent movement of the head and preventing it from putting a bite on you.

The ONLY primary advantage that a human has over a dog in a physical situation is weight.

A 16-20lb dog won’t think much about biting a 10 month old and sometimes a gun is the best way to protect yourself.

“Shooting a 16 pound and a 20 pound dog because they were a danger to you?”

Having had mostly small terriers as pets during my childhood, you’re rather naive if you think they can’t be vicious or lethal despite their size. They’re easier to control but there is no guarantee. My mother’s own dog bit her (old cranky mini schnauzer), the wound got infected and mom went to the ER to get it fixed. The ER has to report that its a dog bite. Animal control showed up to check the dog out two days later and right off the bat told me they might have to take the dog into custody. So, the state sure thinks they’re a threat at times hmm? People need to control their damn pets. The state doesn’t like it when the serfs handle things themselves either.

Having worked in a kennel during high school, I can say you are wrong.

A physically fit 20-lb dog can be almost impossible to get ahold of and/or restrain unless you have a noose pole or protective gear, especially if they are determined to attack you.

They are actually worse than an 80-lb dog because they tend to be much more nimble and thus harder to tackle.

The fact that cops get away with shit like this is horrifying because NO ONE should get away with shit like this, not because everyone should be able to. If you believe that, you’re not a libertarian, you’re just a bloodthirsty idiot. By any reasonable standard, Feigles’ self defense justification does not hold up, and Deoxy is demonstrating the reasoning capacity of a slow 4 year old.

I am a dog lover. The cold fact remains that if a 16-20 lb. animal predator decides it wants to remove your face, you would wish you had a gun. The vast majority of pet dogs and cats are friendly, but one that isn’t can ruin your whole day. Having wrestled with an angry stud cat (20 lb range) with heavy protective clothing and VERY heavy gloves, I assure you that I NEVER want to do that again. I don’t freaking CARE how cute the kittens are.

I’m sorry that somebody’s pet got killed, but, dammit, pet owners are too casual about letting their animals roam. Years ago my parents had an English Bulldog, and his enjoyment of the family vacations was severely curtailed because, while HE had been trained not to leave the property other people’s dogs roamed freely in that area, and then THEY complained that OUR dog told their puppy to get the hell off his territory.

*sheesh*