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	<title>Comments on: Science in the Courtroom</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: Goober</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2627775</link>
		<dc:creator>Goober</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2627775</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ 15 - there is no difference.  They are the same thing - interchangeable terms to describe the same medical condition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ 15 &#8211; there is no difference.  They are the same thing &#8211; interchangeable terms to describe the same medical condition.</p>
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		<title>By: Goober</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2627774</link>
		<dc:creator>Goober</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 22:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2627774</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#7 FTW.  I&#039;ve lived in pain.  Since I&#039;ve done it, I can say without any reservations that if you haven&#039;t been in debilitating pain (defined as pain so bad it is all that you can think about) for more than 6 consecutive months in your life, then you have no freaking idea what it is like.  I sure didn&#039;t, but I thought I did.  Trust me, you have no idea.  If you haven&#039;t, then you have no effing right whatsoever to even begin to talk about regulating pain killers.  Period.  

These people want to pretend that they are all compassionate and save lives, but none of them really understand what it means to live a life that isn&#039;t worth saving - to lay on the floor in your living room, unable to pray to God to kill you, please, just let me die! because it hurts too bad to actually put those thoughts together.  None of them understand that  lot of these painkiller overdoses are actually acetominophen overdoses because they put liver poison into the pain killers to keep people from abusing them.  They would rather have you dead than high, you see.

I wouldn&#039;t wish it upon any of them, but i do wish that they could understand so that they stop what they are doing and back off a little.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#7 FTW.  I&#8217;ve lived in pain.  Since I&#8217;ve done it, I can say without any reservations that if you haven&#8217;t been in debilitating pain (defined as pain so bad it is all that you can think about) for more than 6 consecutive months in your life, then you have no freaking idea what it is like.  I sure didn&#8217;t, but I thought I did.  Trust me, you have no idea.  If you haven&#8217;t, then you have no effing right whatsoever to even begin to talk about regulating pain killers.  Period.  </p>
<p>These people want to pretend that they are all compassionate and save lives, but none of them really understand what it means to live a life that isn&#8217;t worth saving &#8211; to lay on the floor in your living room, unable to pray to God to kill you, please, just let me die! because it hurts too bad to actually put those thoughts together.  None of them understand that  lot of these painkiller overdoses are actually acetominophen overdoses because they put liver poison into the pain killers to keep people from abusing them.  They would rather have you dead than high, you see.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t wish it upon any of them, but i do wish that they could understand so that they stop what they are doing and back off a little.</p>
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		<title>By: H man</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2621894</link>
		<dc:creator>H man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2621894</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The scary thing is that when you see West in action, he sounds convincing, even when you know he’s a fraud.

Is this the sign of a psychopath or a sociopath? I don&#039;t really know what the distinction is between the two.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The scary thing is that when you see West in action, he sounds convincing, even when you know he’s a fraud.</p>
<p>Is this the sign of a psychopath or a sociopath? I don&#8217;t really know what the distinction is between the two.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2619002</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 06:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2619002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If it floats, its a witch! Expert testimony has proven that witches are made of wood. 

That doctors evil pills turned me into a newt! [I got better]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it floats, its a witch! Expert testimony has proven that witches are made of wood. </p>
<p>That doctors evil pills turned me into a newt! [I got better]</p>
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		<title>By: James D</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2617517</link>
		<dc:creator>James D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2617517</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This issue is a real problem.  My wife worked with setting up clinical trials for years and said it was so hard to find good candidates because they wanted someone who was as healthy as possible and took little (or no) other medication.  Because once a &quot;side effect&quot; or &quot;death&quot; is attached to a drug, then that drug will forever be linked with that, when more than likely some other medication or the patients general lack of health is the real culprit.  So you could have drug XYZ that could cure cancer, but if test patients A, B, and C all have existing bad conditions (such as, I don&#039;t know, stage 4 CANCER) and have a side-effect or die, then that drug with be unfairly linked.
Like the first post points out, science(/medicine) is more fluid than people realize.  People think science helps set things in stone (A causes B, X = Y), but in many cases it&#039;s more like &quot;for what can see and prove at this moment in time, A appears likely to be a cause for B&quot; and &quot;X, under the current testing environment, seems to be equivalent to Y&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This issue is a real problem.  My wife worked with setting up clinical trials for years and said it was so hard to find good candidates because they wanted someone who was as healthy as possible and took little (or no) other medication.  Because once a &#8220;side effect&#8221; or &#8220;death&#8221; is attached to a drug, then that drug will forever be linked with that, when more than likely some other medication or the patients general lack of health is the real culprit.  So you could have drug XYZ that could cure cancer, but if test patients A, B, and C all have existing bad conditions (such as, I don&#8217;t know, stage 4 CANCER) and have a side-effect or die, then that drug with be unfairly linked.<br />
Like the first post points out, science(/medicine) is more fluid than people realize.  People think science helps set things in stone (A causes B, X = Y), but in many cases it&#8217;s more like &#8220;for what can see and prove at this moment in time, A appears likely to be a cause for B&#8221; and &#8220;X, under the current testing environment, seems to be equivalent to Y&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Burgers Allday</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2617343</link>
		<dc:creator>Burgers Allday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2617343</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[search warrants sealed in Matthew Stewart case:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53366697-78/search-police-warrants-court.html.csp]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>search warrants sealed in Matthew Stewart case:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53366697-78/search-police-warrants-court.html.csp" rel="nofollow">http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53366697-78/search-police-warrants-court.html.csp</a></p>
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		<title>By: Irving Washington</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2617280</link>
		<dc:creator>Irving Washington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 22:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2617280</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If it makes anyone feel any better, Cheng is way, way outside the mainstream of legal theory.  One of the threshold questions that makes expert testimony admissible is whether the jury needs expert analysis of the evidence.  If the expert can&#039;t say that the science, reliably and repeatedly, makes a fact more or less likely, his testimony should be excluded.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it makes anyone feel any better, Cheng is way, way outside the mainstream of legal theory.  One of the threshold questions that makes expert testimony admissible is whether the jury needs expert analysis of the evidence.  If the expert can&#8217;t say that the science, reliably and repeatedly, makes a fact more or less likely, his testimony should be excluded.</p>
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		<title>By: BamBam</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616925</link>
		<dc:creator>BamBam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616925</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;But my opinion is colored by a cynical feeling that the vetting of science by ‘experts’ will be run by the State, and in consequence all kinds of prosecution- friendly frauds will get a pass.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It already happens.  There is essentially a process for becoming &quot;licensed&quot; to appear as an expert witness (as determined by The State, with requisite fees).  These witnesses are known to lawyers, and there is a &quot;expert witness circuit&quot; (for lack of better sarcastic words) that they all travel.  One could even half-jokingly state that there is an &quot;expert witness&quot; ranking system, full of scouts, draft ratings, 40 yd dash scores, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But my opinion is colored by a cynical feeling that the vetting of science by ‘experts’ will be run by the State, and in consequence all kinds of prosecution- friendly frauds will get a pass.</p></blockquote>
<p>It already happens.  There is essentially a process for becoming &#8220;licensed&#8221; to appear as an expert witness (as determined by The State, with requisite fees).  These witnesses are known to lawyers, and there is a &#8220;expert witness circuit&#8221; (for lack of better sarcastic words) that they all travel.  One could even half-jokingly state that there is an &#8220;expert witness&#8221; ranking system, full of scouts, draft ratings, 40 yd dash scores, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Chaney</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616917</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Chaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:27:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616917</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt; Frauds like Michael West...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Preach it, brother!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> Frauds like Michael West&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Preach it, brother!</p>
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		<title>By: BamBam</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616889</link>
		<dc:creator>BamBam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616889</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;we still see appeals courts shoot down post-conviction petitions on the grounds that the defense already challenged the state’s expert at trial, and the jury found the prosecution’s witness more convincing. It doesn’t seem to matter that we now know the prosecution’s witness was spewing pseudo-science hokum&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Procedure was followed -- that is all that matters. NEXT!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;we still see appeals courts shoot down post-conviction petitions on the grounds that the defense already challenged the state’s expert at trial, and the jury found the prosecution’s witness more convincing. It doesn’t seem to matter that we now know the prosecution’s witness was spewing pseudo-science hokum&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Procedure was followed &#8212; that is all that matters. NEXT!</p>
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		<title>By: BBCC</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616860</link>
		<dc:creator>BBCC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 21:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616860</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whenever I hear about legislators trying to &quot;fix&quot; the painkiller problem, I always wish that they could experience what being in pain - every day, all the time - is like. I&#039;m thinking their tune would change quickly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whenever I hear about legislators trying to &#8220;fix&#8221; the painkiller problem, I always wish that they could experience what being in pain &#8211; every day, all the time &#8211; is like. I&#8217;m thinking their tune would change quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: Burgers Allday</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616698</link>
		<dc:creator>Burgers Allday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Off topic:  There was a bad Supreme court decision yesterday:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-208.pdf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Off topic:  There was a bad Supreme court decision yesterday:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-208.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-208.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: C. S. P. Schofield</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616674</link>
		<dc:creator>C. S. P. Schofield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616674</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think that, by and large, the &#039;let the jury hear everything&#039; attitude is marginally preferable to the &#039;the jury pool is too full of morons, so we need to have science vetted by experts&#039; attitude. Marginally. But my opinion is colored by a cynical feeling that the vetting of science by &#039;experts&#039; will be run by the State, and in consequence all kinds of prosecution- friendly frauds will get a pass.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that, by and large, the &#8216;let the jury hear everything&#8217; attitude is marginally preferable to the &#8216;the jury pool is too full of morons, so we need to have science vetted by experts&#8217; attitude. Marginally. But my opinion is colored by a cynical feeling that the vetting of science by &#8216;experts&#8217; will be run by the State, and in consequence all kinds of prosecution- friendly frauds will get a pass.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Krueger</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616367</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Krueger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616367</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lung cancer statistics are distorted the same way as the drug stats.  It makes the record keeping easier and the stats help support the latest health crusade.  It works for drunk driving accidents, too.  If you were drunk and had an accident, then the accident must have been caused by your being drunk.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lung cancer statistics are distorted the same way as the drug stats.  It makes the record keeping easier and the stats help support the latest health crusade.  It works for drunk driving accidents, too.  If you were drunk and had an accident, then the accident must have been caused by your being drunk.</p>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616339</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616339</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#2&#039;s story reminds me to add: scientific review of scientific evidence would also have to be COMPLETELY independent of law enforcement and the DA. Though I suppose that nearly goes without saying among this crowd.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#2&#8242;s story reminds me to add: scientific review of scientific evidence would also have to be COMPLETELY independent of law enforcement and the DA. Though I suppose that nearly goes without saying among this crowd.</p>
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		<title>By: Burgers Allday</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616265</link>
		<dc:creator>Burgers Allday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616265</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A couple years ago I had my expert challenged in a patent case on Daubert grounds.  The expert was trying to testify that if you had two similar parts, made of similar material that the one with the smaller cross-section would break more easily and with less applied force.  Expert was highly credentialed, long time Mech E professor, etc., etc.  Court wouldn&#039;t take his testimony because it did not believe that the expert could tell that the smaller version would break more easily just by eyeballing.  It was not clear to me whether the court didn&#039;t think he could tell which piece was smaller (it was easy to see) or if the court didn&#039;t think he could make the predicative statement that the smaller one would break easier because it was smaller.  We won without the expert, so I am not too broken up about it.

I tell this story bcs, at the time I was researching to try to keep the expert&#039;s statement in, it was hilarious to read the Daubert progeny cases that involved law enforcement experts.  The precedents (primarily Daubert) were the same, but the law enforecement expert&#039;s testimony always, always got in.  &quot;Scientific method&quot; means a completely different when the science is law enforcement related.  I always think of the Mr. Show sketch with the hunchback and Bob Odenkirk as the wizard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple years ago I had my expert challenged in a patent case on Daubert grounds.  The expert was trying to testify that if you had two similar parts, made of similar material that the one with the smaller cross-section would break more easily and with less applied force.  Expert was highly credentialed, long time Mech E professor, etc., etc.  Court wouldn&#8217;t take his testimony because it did not believe that the expert could tell that the smaller version would break more easily just by eyeballing.  It was not clear to me whether the court didn&#8217;t think he could tell which piece was smaller (it was easy to see) or if the court didn&#8217;t think he could make the predicative statement that the smaller one would break easier because it was smaller.  We won without the expert, so I am not too broken up about it.</p>
<p>I tell this story bcs, at the time I was researching to try to keep the expert&#8217;s statement in, it was hilarious to read the Daubert progeny cases that involved law enforcement experts.  The precedents (primarily Daubert) were the same, but the law enforecement expert&#8217;s testimony always, always got in.  &#8220;Scientific method&#8221; means a completely different when the science is law enforcement related.  I always think of the Mr. Show sketch with the hunchback and Bob Odenkirk as the wizard.</p>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2012/01/24/science-in-the-courtroom/comment-page-1/#comment-2616243</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2012 18:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=23676#comment-2616243</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Skeptical as I am of blue ribbon commissions, this may be one area where we’re best off having an established, accredited panel of specialists set policy.&lt;/i&gt;

I actually don&#039;t even think getting a bunch of scientists together to set a broad policy or set of standards for what constitutes &quot;good&quot; and &quot;bad&quot; science would solve any problems. The very nature of (real) science is that the facts themselves are fluid: or more precisely, the &quot;facts&quot; are really &quot;our best possible interpretation of data collected to date&quot;. Setting a broad policy based on science is very difficult, because science is itself undergoing continuous revision. Policy would have to be continually revised as well to keep up. Our political and justice systems are poorly suited to this.

As a scientist, I sometimes find myself arguing against points I made myself just a few years ago. That&#039;s how fast it can move. 

An alternative might be to set up a mechanism of scientific review of scientific evidence on a case-by-case basis, probably something that would be a sort of hybrid between a grand jury and an NIH study section. This would have to be completely independent of the legal review for admissibility to be truly scientific. 

I don&#039;t know the law well enough to say how feasible that sort of thing really would be, but I imagine that there would be significant constitutional issues with that, both in terms of the independence of the judiciary and the integrity of the jury system.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Skeptical as I am of blue ribbon commissions, this may be one area where we’re best off having an established, accredited panel of specialists set policy.</i></p>
<p>I actually don&#8217;t even think getting a bunch of scientists together to set a broad policy or set of standards for what constitutes &#8220;good&#8221; and &#8220;bad&#8221; science would solve any problems. The very nature of (real) science is that the facts themselves are fluid: or more precisely, the &#8220;facts&#8221; are really &#8220;our best possible interpretation of data collected to date&#8221;. Setting a broad policy based on science is very difficult, because science is itself undergoing continuous revision. Policy would have to be continually revised as well to keep up. Our political and justice systems are poorly suited to this.</p>
<p>As a scientist, I sometimes find myself arguing against points I made myself just a few years ago. That&#8217;s how fast it can move. </p>
<p>An alternative might be to set up a mechanism of scientific review of scientific evidence on a case-by-case basis, probably something that would be a sort of hybrid between a grand jury and an NIH study section. This would have to be completely independent of the legal review for admissibility to be truly scientific. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the law well enough to say how feasible that sort of thing really would be, but I imagine that there would be significant constitutional issues with that, both in terms of the independence of the judiciary and the integrity of the jury system.</p>
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