“We’re Tired”

Thursday, January 19th, 2012

Kristol says at one point that he sympathizes with soldiers who have had to serve “two or three” tours of duty. If I’m not mistaken, we were at the “some guys have served two or three tours” point back in 2005. We’re now at five, six, and seven.

But hey, we’re almost out of Iraq! Kind of. And just in time for the war with Iran.

 

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45 Responses to ““We’re Tired””

  1. #1 |  Bob Mc | 

    All that cheerleading for death & destruction can wear a neocon chickenhawk out.

  2. #2 |  Benny275 | 

    Some have even more than that:

    http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_19207573

  3. #3 |  divadab | 

    How is this guy Kristol qualified to discuss anything to do with war matters? He never served, avoided the draft, inherited his father’s business, and has never done anything but be a propagandist for war profiteers.

    That he is on TV as if he had anything true to say is a disgrace. Let him do something useful for the community for once in his life and maybe he would have some credibility. But all I see is a war-mongering parasite, a lying propagandist, a net negative to the world.

  4. #4 |  Marty | 

    I didn’t like her solution of implementing the draft…

  5. #5 |  William Kern | 

    So wait….how many tours in Iraq did Kristol serve?

  6. #6 |  BamBam | 

    Kristol is a Trotskyite. And usage of “we’re tired” is grossly demeaning, as he is the chickenhawk urging OTHERS to take the hit. He takes no hit.

  7. #7 |  Yizmo Gizmo | 

    “How is this guy Kristol qualified to discuss anything to do with war matters? He never served, avoided the draft, inherited his father’s business, and has never done anything but be a propagandist for war profiteers.”

    Get real. I’ve seen this guy on the front lines,
    guns blazing, Ak-47 in one and a fifth of Jack Daniels in the other,
    usually with a hot blonde in tow. You aint seen nothing
    til you’ve seen Pistol Kristol in crazy-ass damn-the-torpedoes trench mode.

  8. #8 |  BamBam | 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m5iK8weAb0g

  9. #9 |  StrangeOne | 

    #3 Marty,

    Me either, but to be perfectly honest it’s about the only thing that will end the current administration(s) obsession with perpetual war. The American people don’t really suffer for thier war mongering government, economic effects are too indirrect and blowback just serves to justify more war.

    Hunter S. Thompson said that ending the draft was the worst thing we could do, it dehumanized the military by only employing carrer soilders. Without a draft the consequences of war, which indirrectly effect all of society, become issolated to too few people. War-mongering ceases to be a political liability.

    …and this coming from a freshly laid off person of draft age.

  10. #10 |  Z | 

    Just a little bit of history repeating.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War

  11. #11 |  CyniCAl | 

    Just slightly OT, more blurring of the line between soldier and cop, more expansion of the “battlefield” to the entire surface of the Earth:

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/nyc-police-developing-electronic-frisking-device-171749275.html

    “The Department of Defense and the New York Police Department (NYPD) are developing a remote controlled device that could detect if individuals are carrying concealed firearms or explosives.”

    Note that the article’s headline only mentions NYPD.

  12. #12 |  CyniCAl | 

    Re: Kristol

    All this war won’t end until each individual decides that he/she will no longer participate. Military volunteers bear a tremendous amount of responsibility for the current situation.

  13. #13 |  EBL | 

    Kristol is an idiot. You can disagree about Iraq and Afghanistan. But now that we are out of Iraq…it is sort of like a bad relationship. Do you really want to go back?

    Here is another example, Kristol recently recommended Ron Paul leave the GOP. Really Bill? Is that a good idea for the GOP? Drive out Ron Paul and his supporters so they run third party? Maybe the GOP, just maybe, would be a better party if it adopted some of Ron Paul’s crazy ideas like promoting civil liberties, fiscal restraint, and less intrusive smaller government?

  14. #14 |  EBL | 

    There is not going to be a war with Iran for a host of logistic, fiscal and other reasons. There may be military strikes over incidents (like the Straight of Hormuz), but ultimately if Iran gets the bomb (and given even NoKo could make one, as could any competent nuclear engineer grad student with the right materials), if they can delay it great, but I have to assume Iran will eventually get one if it wishes to do so. I hope it is never used.

    The better long term strategy is to help Iranians over the long term get rid of its oligarchy of ruling mullahs.

  15. #15 |  EBL | 

    That is a jumbled sentence above. My bad. I assume Iran will eventually get the bomb. If we can delay it, fine. But the bigger issue is Iranians getting rid of their oligarchy of mullahs.

  16. #16 |  MassHole | 

    I always wonder how Kristol and his ilk manage not to be spit upon in public.

  17. #17 |  Goober | 

    I do not care what “good” people think would come of a draft. Involuntary servitude is slavery and you cannot take the moral high ground in any discussion in which your position relies on the enslavement of another. Doubly true when that enslavement is likely to take the enslaved person’s life. I am miserable every time I think of all of the unwilling draftees who died for this country against their will, doing their best to carry out a duty that they never wanted, didn’t choose, and were forced by the barrel of a gun to go and perform; all for a country that told them that they should be proud to die for their cause, while it was forcing them to choose between the enemy’s bullets or prison.

    I will not be a part of it. I’ll fight to the death against it. All this coming from a man who is beyond draftable age and was never fit enough due to injury to ever be drafted, anyway.

    In a time of national emergency, when we really need “all hands on deck” you won’t need a draft, anyway. The lines at the recruting depots will be miles long. And whether they want me or not, i’ll be in one of them.

  18. #18 |  shecky | 

    As repugnant as the neocons are and continue to be, I have a hard time taking seriously the complaints about service members being over worked. Military service is still voluntary. As long as there are sizeable numbers volunteering, we’ll have neocon chickenhawks more than willing to send them off to do what they signed up for. Service members may think of themselves as defenders of their country, but in my view, they are simultaneously enablers of the worst aspect of big government: the manpower behind big government’s most powerful and destructive institutions and instincts, which time and again are used for purposes other than defending the country. The US military has long been at odds with any notion of small government. Anyone with qualms about government and its power really needs to think long and hard about becoming a cog in it’s most powerful machine.

  19. #19 |  Ben | 

    Real nice, a woman whose husband volunteered to join the army and go kill foreigners, wants to re-institute slavery so that the rest of us can be forced into the awful situation her husband volunteered for. :vomit:

  20. #20 |  Cynical in New York | 

    #4

    In my personal discussions with people about the draft it comes down to two reasons for people that are pro-military slavery.

    1. A draft will help install “patriotism” in people who have been “poisoned” by public school leftism.

    2. With a draft people would be more cautious about quickly waving the war banner around.

    Both points are wrong as much Libertarians know.

    Granted this piece by Jacob Hornberger doesnt have to do with the draft but it explains how principals are forgotten in the name of war.

    http://www.fff.org/blog/jghblog2012-01-17.asp

  21. #21 |  Stephen | 

    Hell yes they are tired!

    I did the first Iraq war (before, during, and after) plus 9 months of Somalia. I WAS TIRED! These guys have done a lot more.

    I still say NO to a draft.

  22. #22 |  Dave Krueger | 

    #14 EBL

    There is not going to be a war with Iran for a host of logistic, fiscal and other reasons. There may be military strikes…

    You see, that’s where I guess I differ from most people. I think when you start bombing them, you are at already war. In fact, I think you’re already at war when you begin the process of taunting another country to justify a war. The decision is made and the process has begun.

    But, you’re right that Iran will get the bomb eventually, which makes our policy of making them hate us as much as possible seem a little odd, especially when it’s done in the name of national security. Because, once they do get the bomb, they might feel compelled to try it out here first. Then we can act all surprised and claim we didn’t see it coming and that they did it because they hate our freedom.

    I know I’m totally fucked up, but I think the best thing to do would be to establish a policy that convinces Iran that we are not a threat and make them dependent on us as a trading partner (ie: the same policy we should have towards most of the world). Absent a threat, countries usually don’t like to bomb trading partners.

    And, being a cold-hearted libertarian, I don’t care in the least how they run their own affairs and I don’t see any need to “help” them over-turn their government or deliver thousands of tons of airborne laser-guided peace and democracy. The best thing we can do for any other country on the planet is to set an example that makes them want to over-throw their own tyrannies because they want to be like us.

    The problem with going to war is that the guy who makes the decision, saying he thinks it’s “worth it”, is never the guy who has to pay the price.

  23. #23 |  Dave Krueger | 

    #19 Ben

    Real nice, a woman whose husband volunteered to join the army and go kill foreigners, wants to re-institute slavery so that the rest of us can be forced into the awful situation her husband volunteered for. :vomit:

    Perfect. I should learn to be so concise.

  24. #24 |  Graham Shevlin | 

    William Kristol is a bloviating idiot, most of whose predictions have been consistently shown to be wrong. The guy is a waste of any sort of bandwidth.
    However, I am in favour of reinstating the draft if it helps to rid us of the Serving Military Guilt Syndrome that infects our approach to military personnel these days. Because We The People know that those people fighting overseas are (a) going into a dangerous place, and (b) are supposedly upholding US interests (leaving aside whether they actually are), military personnel are lauded to the heavens to the point where they are almost exempt from any criticism (note Rick Perry attempting to suggest that mild punishment or no punishment should be imposed on the personnel who thought it was cool to urinate on the bodies of dead adversaries), and they are the beneficiaries of numerous acts of positive discrimination, ranging from priority boarding on commercial airline flights through to priority when it comes to applying for government jobs. IMHO, this is nothing more than a feel-good response to the unspoken reality that, because there is no public enthusiasm for the return of the draft, We The People know that the front-line military people are the fall guys for US military adventures, We The People feel bad about this, so we attempt to compensate for it in numerous mostly symbolic ways.
    Of course, if we are going to reinstate the draft, let’s learn from the Vietnam era. No long list of deferment options, and no ability for the well connected to be parked in “champagne crew” non-assignments stateside.

  25. #25 |  Dave Krueger | 

    Volunteering for military service should not be conflated with volunteering to die.

    And when someone volunteers for the military, they should be able to trust the government not to send them off to war for frivolous reasons (such as defending the freedom of defense industry executives to line their pockets).

  26. #26 |  JOR | 

    #20, Well, at least one of those lines of argument are wrong (I’m not sure the first one is, but then I don’t use an idealized definition of “patriotism” – I just use it with its common sense meaning of “loyalty to and faith in one’s government”), because they’re incompatible. It kind of reminds me of the way that government health care was/is pushed both by bleeding hearts who don’t want to see anyone go without care for any reason and people who think we need government to run things to cut down on costs and inefficiency (i.e. let more people go without care). And they never seemed to realize how radically different their premises and goals were.

  27. #27 |  JOR | 

    As far as I’m concerned, people need to stop whining about “chickenhawks”. The problem with chickenhawks is that they are evil, lying blowhards. They wouldn’t be better people if they were also hired murderers for the state.

    Would that all of those hired murderers had been satisfied with a life of malevolent mendacity.

  28. #28 |  Marty | 

    #9 StrangeOne-

    I grew up reading HST, but I’m not lining up behind any draft. The poor and middle class will still fight (it may be worse because of how unaffordable college has become) and those with means will exploit loopholes.

    Piss on the draft. Hell, I get irritated when hs kids have to do community service.

  29. #29 |  JOR | 

    A volunteer military, all things considered, is a good thing: the risks and costs of war are borne by the thugs* who are willing to hire themselves out to shoot and bomb people for a bunch of politicians, rather than by everyone who couldn’t find some way to evade the draft.

    *Well, the costs and risks are mostly borne by the victims of the shooting and bombing, but that’s the case when a slave military is used, too.

  30. #30 |  Glumskull | 

    I can think of a solution that solves a couple of problems. Your Gummint is owed billions of dollars by young, (presumably) educated people, in the form of student loans for college/university. The Gummint can call in these markers; debtors can either pay off their loan IMMEDIATELY or get drafted. There are two consequences; some parents will sell their assets if it means getting lil’ Johnny off the hook, giving the Feds hundreds of millions of dollars to kill filthy, dirty foriegners, who have the GALL, the SHEER GALL!!! to live in their own countries and actually believe their resources belong to themselves. Those that caint pay, fight! Another benefit, those that don’t fight when drafted can get sent to your privatised prison system, thus making the stock market rise. Aaaah Imperial designs & crony capitalism…Dog bless Amerika.

  31. #31 |  Delta | 

    (#9) — “Hunter S. Thompson said that ending the draft was the worst thing we could do, it dehumanized the military by only employing carrer soilders. Without a draft the consequences of war, which indirrectly effect all of society, become issolated to too few people. War-mongering ceases to be a political liability.”

    While I’ve agreed with this in the past, it won’t make any difference either way in the near-future when most of the fighting’s done with drones & robots. Only American human deaths seem to create any pushback against our wars.

  32. #32 |  Noel St. John | 

    Covered an assignment for American Legion last week. I cannot cite my source by name as requested by my client other than to say this person is an active duty officer in the US Army. This individual explained that some of our soldiers are beyond 2000 days of combat duty. This is unprecedented in US history as well as quite possibly world history. Another fun fact: combat soldiers make up 0.68% of US population yet account for 22% of suicides. “You don’t see attempts; we are pretty effective.”

  33. #33 |  KBCraig | 

    A local family in Hope, Arkansas –remember Bill Clinton?– has lost two of their three sons in Afghanistan. One was a Navy SEAL. The second, killed just this week, was an Army Ranger. The third and surviving son is an active duty Marine.

    Yeah, we’re tired.

  34. #34 |  Pi Guy | 

    …Your Gummint is owed billions of dollars by young, (presumably) educated people, in the form of student loans for college/university. The Gummint can call in these markers; debtors can either pay off their loan IMMEDIATELY or get drafted[emphasis mine]

    On first glance I loved this idea. Clear out the OWS crowd and send them straight over. *gleefully rubs hands together*

    Then I thunked, “Maybe that lot wouldn’t make such swell soldiers…” Our projected force military would be pretty weak.

    See- now I’m torn. The get drafted scheme simultaneously weeds out the useless while likely exposing ourselves to greater risk. *scratches head, then crothch, then head again*

    Then sanity prevails:

    In a time of national emergency, when we really need “all hands on deck” you won’t need a draft, anyway. The lines at the recruting depots will be miles long. And whether they want me or not, i’ll be in one of them.

    We’ll know that war is the just response when We the People “support the war” by queueing up at the recruiting centers. If I feel that war is justified, I’ll be in one of them as well.

  35. #35 |  JOR | 

    I would rather a million Good American Boys who want to Serve Their Country come home shredded and mangled in body bags than just one stupid hippy should stub his toe. Because the former are far worse than useless.

    On the other hand, weakening the military sounds good…

  36. #36 |  2nd of 3 | 

    “In a time of national emergency, when we really need “all hands on deck” you won’t need a draft, anyway. The lines at the recruting depots will be miles long.”

    Debate on the morality of the draft aside, is this actually true? Didn’t the U.S. needed to resort to the draft in both the Civil War and WWII? Many of the people in those long lines simply wouldn’t be fit for service for various reasons.

    In any event, the debate on the draft will soon be moot. A robotic drone military is not science fiction, it’s in the early stages of implimentation, and the final stages will come more quickly than most suspect. The government won’t need to draft anyone when it can simply build an army in a week.

  37. #37 |  Contrarian | 

    “In any event, the debate on the draft will soon be moot. A robotic drone military is not science fiction, it’s in the early stages of implimentation, and the final stages will come more quickly than most suspect. The government won’t need to draft anyone when it can simply build an army in a week.”

    That’s assuming the factory in China doesn’t have a big production run of IPads scheduled…

  38. #38 |  2nd of 3 | 

    @Contrarian – Of course.

  39. #39 |  Boyd Durkin | 

    @#10 Z,

    Just a little bit of history repeating.

    Propellerheads and Shirley Bassey: good song for Friday

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTUIHK7gHRE

    There is not going to be a war with Iran for a host of logistic, fiscal and other reasons.

    Those aren’t in the decision criteria for war. The guys who decide are always positively impacted by war.

  40. #40 |  Ed Dunkle | 

    I recommend the documentary “Why We Fight.” The well being of the people actually fighting the wars is never a consideration. And our “volunteers” are usually very poor, uneducated people with few options.

  41. #41 |  Joe Bar | 

    @#40 Ed, I was in the Army for 29 years. You couldn’t be more wrong on your last point.

  42. #42 |  Jim | 

    I’d say 29 years amply proves his last point.

  43. #43 |  MPH | 

    I notice that there are not very many actual service personnel complaining about multiple tours. Perhaps they have enough historical knowledge to recall that in WWII, you were in until you were dead, wounded too badly to continue after treatment, or we won (with the only exception I am aware of being those who served in europe in the bomber corps, where 25 mission completions ended your term of service; of course, until very late in the war, only 50% of bomber crews survived that long). And going home for leave from theater? Ha!

    War is hell, no matter what war you’re talking about. But if WWII had gone on for ten years, there would have been soldiers and sailors who hadn’t seen home for that amount of time.

    BTW Ed and Jim, unlike 7-11 or McDonalds, the Army (and the other services) generally won’t take High School drop outs. Our current military is probably the most well educated in history. Army personnel have a high school graduation rate that matches the general population (the rest typically have GEDs), and the rest of the services have a higher graduation rate than the general population (so our military personnel are better educated than our general population). Officers in all services are required to have a Bachelor’s degree. You should both STFD and STFU until you have some actual knowledge to impart, rather than just some ignorant prejudice to spout. Look here to start: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/genjoin/a/asvabminimum.htm

  44. #44 |  Goober | 

    Debate on the morality of the draft aside, is this actually true? Didn’t the U.S. needed to resort to the draft in both the Civil War and WWII? Many of the people in those long lines simply wouldn’t be fit for service for various reasons.

    As for the civil war- just remember that it really wasn’t that popular of a war at the time – the suspension of habeas corpus was for people against the war up NORTH, not against the southern rebels. If it was so bad that they couldn’t drum up the will to fight it without imprisoning the folks speaking out against it, I’m thinking that it really doesn’t even apply to this conversation. Many, if not most, folks in the North didn’t see this as a war of national survival at first. it took a lot of talking by Lincoln to get them on board, along with a lot of “shutting up” the opposition.

    In WWII, I’d be interested to see if we really NEEDED to resort to a draft. I know that we had one, but did we really NEED it? Would many of the draftees have signed up anyway, but found out that they were going to be drafted and just let it happen? Would we have had enough volunteers to fight that war?

    I don’t know. What I do know is that I’ve heard a lot of folks say that when there was a draft, they were planning to sign up anyway, but just got drafted first.

    THe sad fact is that my “all-volunteer” plan in time of emergency has never been tried. Our government has always been quick to enslave men instead of giving them the chance to join on their own accord, so we really don’t have any way to know whether this is true or not.

    What I do know is that we’ve had enough volunteers in the last ten years to fight two foreign wars, which aren’t all that popular, in bad conditions with bad politics and shitty ROEs. If you can do that, why couldn’t you get enough of a force together to fight off a true threat to our existence?

    If it came down to it, and I got in line with everyone else, chances are they wouldn’t take me, but even THAT wouldn’t keep me from fighting or supporting the fight in any way I could. I know that most men would do the same.

  45. #45 |  donnel fenton | 

    Yes-Reinstate the draft!. Polish up your children to march to death for
    the war profiteers. It would reduce overcrowding. Of course the
    politicians children would be exempt. Save money close all the VA hospitals. Re-elect all the same politicians. Do not vote for Paul-he
    doesn’t like war-the party pooper! How about a war with IRAN!Remember
    strait of Hormuz/Gulf of Tonkin-nothin too it. You sign up too Dad and mom, My friend Johnny Peeps will watch your home/belongings.
    Yours truly, donnell, Vietnam class of 67.

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