TheAgitator.com
Firearms Training
Monday, May 10th, 2010This weekend I took a defensive handgun course at the FPF training range in Culpeper, Virginia. The instructor John Murphy and I share a mutual friend. John is also a libertarian (at least I’m pretty sure he is).
I’m a gun novice, to say the least. But John’s great at bringing along beginners while challenging more experienced shooters in the same course. In a single weekend I went from having never shot a handgun (perhaps when I was very small, I don’t remember) to feeling quite comfortable around one. And it turns out I’m not a half-bad shot. I learned a lot. I also had a lot of fun. Shooting stuff is cathartic.
I’m now qualified to apply for a concealed carry permit in Virginia. And in Tennessee after I move. So I guess the next step is to purchase a handgun.
But I wanted to give John some advertising to Agitator readers, who I’d imagine are more likely to take advantage of his class than your average bear. If you’re in or anywhere near the mid-Atlantic area, consider giving his course a shot (pun intended!). You don’t need to already own a gun. He’ll supply you with one.
I’m-a wait til I move to Vermont, where there are almost no gun laws.
Oh noes! Another Libertarian gun-nut!
Just kidding. I carry a Bersa Thunder .380. It is a little heavy, but I like the hammer-block safety. Any idea what type of pistol you are looking for?
The kids might be taking rifle courses this summer, which makes me jealous. We don’t have guns because of the kids, naturally. Safer that way.
Like I said on your Facebook page… watch out! You’re a libertarian activist who doesn’t trust the government who’s taking a firearms training course. You’re probably going to be featured in the next SPLC bulletin, if you’re lucky enough not to be raided by DHS first.
S&W M&P or a Glock would work well for you.
Make sure you discover what you like in a handgun before dropping 500$-1500$ on one. If you’re going to carry, make sure to also spend money on the two most overlooked, but critical, items: a proper gunbelt and a custom holster. Then, make sure you can draw and reholster safely while following the four rules.
Keep in mind that, even if the course you took is very good, you probably learned how to shoot a gun, /not/ how to carry a gun. Take it slow.
I hope you know that owning a gun is right up there with not owning a gun as a leading cause for cops to shoot your ass.
We have a great range down here. Maybe we can have a agitator range day meetup sometime – I’d bet most of us are firearms owners.
Welcome to a wider world of self-determination and responsibility. Good on ya mate.
10 posts deep and the Agitatorship hasn’t chimed in on what to buy?
I’ll start. I recommend the Springfield Armory XDm. I own it in 9mm.
I’ll second ZK on the belt and custom holster, as it’s often overlooked when purchasing a gun.
Walther PPK. (.380). I can pretend I’m Bond, James Bond.
You could make an entire thread about gun/holster/belt recommendations (and maybe you should!). But in the end, don’t listen to our recommendations alone. Spend some time and money borrowing or renting some guns, and figure out what you like, what you can conceal, what features you like, what controls you like, and what fits your hand.
Everything from a full-sized 1911 to a pocket .380 have a place, and what works for you is the most important factor. Of course, I suspect us readers would happy to suggest what might work for you!
Owning a handgun also lets you indulge in a bit of history collecting if you do it right. WW II Colt 45′s are great shooters and overflowing with history! For concealed carry, I like a Beretta M1934 in .380 (or 9mm Corto in Italian). They were officer’s side arms, hardly used, and a nice bit WW II history.
Oh, and defenders carry autos, while criminals carry revolvers. Defenders don’t have to worry about shell casings left behind.
I strongly recommend Springfield Armory XD pistols matched with Galco leather holsters. If you want full size, the XDMs are incredible.
http://www.springfield-armory.com
http://usgalco.com
I personally shoot and 4″ XD40 and a subcompact Glock 27. The XD’s safety mechanism is optimal.
Unsolicited advice-Go to a range that will let you rent a variety of guns so you can find one you like. The opinions on which gun is the best is as variable as the number of handguns on the market. It’s really a personal preference and the more you try the better you will feel about your choice.
Personally I like a Colt .45 semi, but its big and heavy, but accurate, reliable, and plently of knock-down power. I bought a compact .40 Beretta because the wife can handle it (its very light), it has great safety features, adequate knock-down, and a 10 round magazine. It’s drawbacks are a big kick (due to its light weight), and limited accuracy (a feature of all compacts, but good enough to reliably hit the target at 7 meters), and a heavy trigger pull required (safety). From a sitting position, my wife can pick it up off a table, release the safety, cock the hammer, and put three rounds on the target in a little over 3 seconds.
Only get a 9mm if you get hollowpoints, and I’ve heard that is not always enough power.
S&W .38 are a great, reliable compact, but you only get 6 tries, it takes time to reload, and has marginal accuracy.
I’ve heard a lot of good things about Glocks and the 9mm I tried was very nice.
Invest in a gun safe for when you have visitors or are away
Good for you.
If you’re interested in finding stories about law enforcement abuse of power and similar stories, with an emphasis on gun rights, David Codrea’s War on Guns has a constant stream of links–so many that I don’t have time to read him every day.
You may or may not always agree with his political views, but he is a good source of stories, if you’re interested.
Libertarian trivia: Culpeper is home to the Culpeper Minutemen, who first flew the Gadsden Flag.
Always makes me a bit nostalgic every time I hear of someone learning to use a firearm. I was 5 when my dad started to teach me to shoot, and I remember exactly what he said, ‘Anything you line up on and squeeze that trigger against is going to die, now remember that, because it can’t be undone.’ I remember being so afraid of the gun after that I didn’t even want to touch it, of course that taught me 2 lessons that are deeply ingrained. One is gun safety, but the other was a respect for life.
The XD’s safety is NOT optimal and it does fail when dirty and hinders one handed manpulation.
Recommend a Glock 19, Smith&Wesson M&P, or HKP30.
I’ve had a pamphlet for Mr. Murphy’s training course on my desk for a few weeks now. I’ve been thinking on honing my rifle skills. My co-workers regard him very highly.
The Glock 19 is a great choice for a first gun, it’s their mid-size 9mm model. It is durable, easy to shoot, high-capacity and it takes the larger models’ 9mm magazines as well (can use the larger Glock 17 magazines and the 33rd mag).
The Springfield XD’s are great guns, but I like the ubiquity of the Glock (for gunsmiths, parts) and its bore is lower (closer to the hand) reducing muzzle flip during recoil.
I’m partial to Barettas. Mine’s a 9mm loaded to the brim with hollowpoints… Yes, liberals like guns too.
I don’t like the feel of a glock but they sure do a good job of going “bang” every time you pull the trigger and the bullets go where you tell them to.
Get something you can afford to practice with on a regular basis. Some rounds can get expensive.
http://www.appleseedinfo.org
Go get the best basic rifle marksmanship training there is to offer. All instructors are volunteers and most have hundreds of hours of hands-on training.
I think the best advice is take your time and find the right firearm for you. I have several handguns in everything from .22 to .454 casull (not for typical carry situations). I carry a lightweight .38 most often out of convienence. Remember, a handgun will typically last you the rest of your life and maybe then some, so don’t go cheap just to save a few bucks. Brands I personnally like: SigSauer, HK, Glock, CZ and older Colts. For carry purposes find something you can and will carry. If its inconvienent, you won’t carry it often.
Radley-
Why were you firing guns when you were too little to remember??? Yikes! Where did you go to pre-school?
Also, to your point that the next step is to buy a gun… wouldn’t the next step be to get the concealed weapon permit first and THEN buy the gun?
Shooting stuff is cathartic.
Uh-oh, Radley’s starting to think like a cop.
I have a Sig P238 I like because it fits in my pocket…Kahr PM45 for when I don’t mind something larger…number of full size ones I wouldn’t want to pretend I could conceal.
The two most important things about concealed carry selection (to me):
1) Convenience. Period. You can’t shoot what you didn’t bother to carry that day. (S&W airweights are great)
2) Ergonomics/quality. You have to like the way it works in YOUR hand, not on someone else’s chart at a range half a world away. Much like #1, if you can’t shoot it easily and accurately it’s just a scary chunk of metal, not the weapon it should be.
sub-point about #1…don’t worry about caliber. I’d like to shoot every bad-guy on the planet with naval artillery, but it doesn’t fit in my pocket. There’s an awful lot of dead people that would disagree with anyone who says a .22 long rifle cartridge isn’t powerful enough. Buy the baddest bang that fits #1 and #2, don’t try to make them fit around your cartridge preference.
@ #28
I agree completely. One note about the .22, it’s usually got enough penetration to go into someone, but not go through them (usually), so it just bounces around inside, doing way more damage than a much higher caliber.
John Murphy’s a great guy. I know him from the Quantico range complex and the gun club down there when I used to volunteer as a Range Safety Officer.
Congrats, Radley! I haven’t taken this step yet myself.
I am employed as a healthcare security officer (non-sworn) at a large regional hospital in the midwest, and we are formally prohibited by medical center policy from carrying firearms on duty (Per administration, I guess it would be better to wait for government police, who may be unfamiliar with the campus and its culture, to deal with any active shooters or other threats). That’s what passes for sound security policy in our organization! Thus, I will probably have to go elsewhere to get firearms training.
People who aren’t stifled by government policy, or the stupidity of their employer, should investigate the possibility of arming themselves, and should seek out the kind of training Radley is discussing. As Grizzly inferred above, it can lead to new found feelings of self-determination and personal responsibility. After all, YOU are the first line of defense.
Why would you want to concealed carry? I’m not against it, but at the same time I just don’t understand the need to have a gun on you at all times.
Are you living in a particularly dangerous area? Or, is it because of your work?
Sorry, not trying to be a troll, or pick a fight here, I’ve just never understood this.
I have a Ruger SP101 hammerless snubnose that can shoot .357s or .38s. It’s only a five shooter, but takes hollowpoints. A little heavy, and it pinches my finger, but is easy to clean and convenient for carry. Good luck and congratulations on soon becoming a gun owner. It is empowering. Cars, computers, and guns have done great things for freedom.
Radley didnt ask for advice on what gun to buy, but since everybody is chiming in with idiotic suggestions I thought I would say something.
Don’t listen to any of them. Go to the range, get a wide variety of guns to try out, and go with what you feel most comfortable with.
BTW all of you XD and glock fanboys are annoying.
I carry a full size, all-metal IMI baby eagle, in .45. It’s comfortable, it fits my hands perfectly, and it is very reliable.
#32 Justin:
It’s not necessarily about WANTING to concealed carry. It is about having the option, and not being forcibly disarmed by the state.
Many people would not want to carry. They would not want that responsibility if an emergency occurs, and that is fine. Concealing a firearm can also be difficult. Your clothing options can be limited, so people might not want to bother with that. That is fine.
I am not a huge gun fan. I know only the basics about guns, mostly from my criminal justice education and internships. I know more about what firearms can do to the human body, and it can be very ugly. But this does not justify making it illegal for law abiding citizens to arm and defend themselves.
If I carried a weapon, it would probably be related to my work. I would carry just in case, not because I am trying to present a tough guy image. Basically as an insurance policy. And yes, I do live in an area with a higher than average crime rate. But people who live in relatively crime-free rural areas also have valid concerns that may lead them to carry weapons. Not too many deputy sheriffs or troopers around in some of the counties in my state.
Hope that answers your question.
#32. For the same reasons that police officers carry firearms. Which is to say, to have the firearm immediately available in the unlikely event that it is needed. The last time I checked, most police officers never drew – let alone used – a firearm for any purpose other than qualification. However, police officers – like other civilians – do sometimes need to use a weapon to protect themselves or others. When the need arises, the firearm needs to be immediately available (the firearm in the safe at home likely will not satisfy the need).
There is a non-zero probability that each of us will need a firearm on any given day. The negative consequences of not having the firearm when needed can be quite substantial. Accordingly, many people choose to carry a firearm at all times. There are of course costs/risks associated with this choice. But, the right of the individual to make decisions for himself (or herself) is the central philosophy of libertarianism.
Justin, my primary interest in having the license at all was to legalize the gun in my car. When I drive long distance (family in several states, business in other states and countries) I run across idiots in construction zones, creeps at gas stations, gang bangers at Chicago rest stops, etc etc etc…two of these run-ins with “bad people” resulted in a gun being pointed at them. One involved a knife, the other three large men closing in cracking knuckles. I’ve bullshitted my way out of a lot of situations I was pretty sure were intended to end with me being robbed or just attacked, but the firearm shifted the potentially lethal situations back to my favor because it was ready at hand, not locked in the trunk separated from the ammunition and disassembled (in some states). Neither of those “gun being drawn” situations involved me having a legal license to carry but I’ve grown tired of doing so illegally.
Don’t think I answered the question correctly…It’s not to have a gun on oneself at all times, but to have a gun on oneself when it’s important, or nearby and available when a situation makes one useful (in my car).
#34 | asscore |
“I carry a full size, all-metal IMI baby eagle, in .45.”
I think you mean “IWI” instead of “IMI”. The “IMI” only had 9mm, .40 and .41AE. The newer “IWI” stuff looks similar and is available in .45 but is made by a different company now. Still a good gun. Feels a LOT better in your hand than a glock but doesn’t shoot any better and is a pretty heavy pistol to carry around all the time.
Totally agree with the advice to try as many as you can. Everybody’s hands are NOT the same.
Dear Justin (#32):
“I just don’t understand the need to have a gun on you at all times.”
I just don’t understand the need to wear a seat belt at all times while driving.
“Are you living in a particularly dangerous area?”
Are you driving on a particularly dangerous road?
“Sorry, not trying to be a troll, or pick a fight here, I’ve just never understood this.”
When I go boating, I wear a life jacket.
I hope I never need it.
When I get in my car, I put on my seat belt.
I hope I never need it.
In my house I have a fire extinguisher.
I hope I never need it.
I carry a gun for self defense.
I hope I never need it.
A gun is just another piece of safety equipment…
I hope I never need it.
If you have ever watched any of those “caught on camera” shows you will notice that offenders are shocked and terrified when a private citizen actually tries to defend themselves. Often, even a hint of resistance can cause a criminal (particularly an inexperienced one) to run away rather than try to complete the offense.
I have no doubt that criminals fear citizens who are armed and/or prepared to defend themselves more than they will ever fear police intervention. They expect most of there intended vicitims to be helpless and afraid, neutered by the idea that people should just cooperate and then call the police. when they find out otherwise, criminals often don’t know how to react.
Congrats, but be careful, shooting can be addicting and gets expensive. My first piece of advice would be to ignore anyone that says brand X is the only gun you should buy. There are multiple highly reliable makes. Reliability and fit are my top 2 criteria in a handgun.
Try some newer guns with adjustable grips: HK P30, S&W M&P, Gen 4 Glock(coming soon). I agree with other commenters who have said go to a range and rent a variety of guns to help you choose.
As for caliber, ignore most of what u read online and hear in gun shops. There is an absolutely astounding amount BS when it comes to terminal ballistics. For example, .22s defying physics and bouncing around inside of people, and hit them in the arm with a .45 and they’ll stop right there. Most handgun calibers are suboptimal, however carrying a rifle or field artillery is inconvenient, possibly illegal. I would consider .380 to be the minimum and each step up is marginally better in terminal performance, but with trade-offs such as weight and recoil. I prefer 9mm, but .40 and .45 have marginally better terminal performance.
A good holster and belt are a must for concealed carry. Good gun belts look expensive at first, but will last a very long time, and make carrying much easier.
I carried a Commander size stainless steel 1911 for a couple years (nice looking gun, fit my hand great, extra gun-nut cred), then took a pistol shooting class over a couple days and 1k rounds. The XD and Glock shooters were in much better shape than us 1911 shooters. More reliable weapons and higher-capacity magazines. It’s hard to go wrong with a Glock, even if they’re ugly and common.
Life jackets, seat belts, bike helmets, etc… are all non-confrontational. You use them in case of an accident. A gun isn’t just another piece of safety equipment. Its use would require someone to confront you in an aggressive manner. And, feeling like you need it means you feel like there are reasonable odds on that situation coming up. I would think.
And to be clear, I never said I think carrying a gun should be illegal, or that seat belts should be required.
It just strikes me as odd that there is this whole group of people who are apparently so concerned that they may encounter some kind of aggressive confrontation in their day to day lives that they feel the need to walk around armed.
Maybe it’s just my own experience, and good luck in all my years of hiking, camping, traveling, walking, and going out alone that I’ve never once encountered anything threatening.
Maybe you all have some experience in your past that leads you to be more cautious?
Maybe your fear is totally irrational, and you just feel better feeling like you might be able to protect yourself? I’ve got my own irrational fears, so I’m not knocking anyone.
A person with a concealed carry license doesn’t need to carry a gun at all times. Someone with such a permit may choose to carry a weapon only 0.1% of the time he is away from home. In such a circumstance, that 0.1% of the time would would be legal.
Don’t make assumptions about the motives of others.
Elliot, you’re right, they may choose to not carry most of the time.
And, all I’m looking for is to understand the motives. I don’t understand them now. And, maybe I never will. It’s entirely possible that we’re so out of sync on what is motivating us, what you fear vs. what I fear that I just won’t ever see your point.
For me, walking around armed in your day to day life seems like an incredibly aggressive stance to take against something that is incredibly unlikely to happen.
And, again, I’m not saying it shouldn’t be allowed. I want to emphasize that. I’d really like to hear honest answers on why people feel like they need, or just want a concealed weapon on them.
#28,
I fall into the category (probably the majority) who disagree about lower calibers being effective for self-defense. Don’t get me wrong, I love my mark III for target shooting, but if I’m in a situation where I need to actual discharge a firearm to defend myself I want to drop the person immediately. The assailant collapsing 10 minutes later doesn’t do much to remedy the problem. .38 and above can do this very reliably, .22 not as much.
My favorite handgun for concealed carry is my Kahr K9. If you are interested in getting a gun I second the advice above, to go to a range and try a variety of guns, since them things ain’t cheap.
Also, #11, that is a great gun. It is unfortunate the S&W took over Walther. Unless something has changed very recently, there guns are total shit now, jam up all the time.
I can only speak for myself, but if I were to carry, it woudl be because I CAN. Not because I feel in danger out on the streets. But I don’t currently own a gun because the gun laws in Virginia are too restrictive.
#43 “Life jackets, seat belts, bike helmets, etc… are all non-confrontational. You use them in case of an accident. A gun isn’t just another piece of safety equipment. Its use would require someone to confront you in an aggressive manner.”
We use life jackets, seat belts, bike helmets to enhance our chances of survival (or minimize injury) in the event of an unplanned event (in common parlance, an “accident”; I don’t like the term because “accidents” are frequently caused by negligence and not by uncontrollable circumstances). A firearm carried for self-defense is similarly intended to be used in the event of an unplanned event (an assault).
I cannot agree that carrying a firearm is inherently “aggressive.” Aggressive means “showing a readiness or having a tendency to attack.” Certainly, a felon is carrying a firearm with the intent of committing a robbery would be considered aggressive. On the other hand, a frail/elderly person (or for that matter 7′ lumberjack) carrying a firearm for purposes of self-defense is not aggressive. The self-defender is not intending to attack. A porcupine is not an aggressive animal.
A firearm is a tool. Yes, it is a tool that is designed to inflict bodily damage – potentially fatal – to other living organisms. Again, it comes down to choices. You can choose to carry a firearm to attack other people or you can choose to carry a firearm to defend yourself/others (I am not limiting the reasons for carrying a firearm to these two).
Although I have some control over how I live my life and what I carry, I cannot decide how Joe Q. Felon lives his life and what he carries. This conclusion is inescapable. You concede as much when you indicate that carrying a firearm might make sense if “you feel like there are reasonable odds on that situation [i.e., someone aggressive] coming up.” We all of us weigh risk differently. Person A might conclude that a .01% chance of needing a firearm each day merits carrying a firearm all the time. Person B might conclude it does not merit the hassle of carrying a firearm all the time.
It’s really as simply as that. Some people believe “reasonable odds” means something very different than you.
Kristen, I’m not sure that’s an answer. I CAN wear elbow pads, knee pads, wrist guards, helmet, shin guards, and shoulder pads to walk down the street to the grocery store, but I don’t, because I have absolutely no concern about being injured while walking through the neighborhoods on the side walk.
I do, however, carry an avalanche beacon, probe and shovel while traveling in avalanche terrain, because I do worry that, despite the low odds, someone in my party, or me, might get buried, and we’ll want to be able to do a rescue.
In the first case, I have no concern, so I’ve put no effort into purchasing any of that gear, let alone using it. In the 2nd, I have some concern, so I’ve spent over $1000 on gear, and training that I use.
People getting who specifically buy a pistol that’s good for self defense, and can be reasonably concealed and carried, then go to the trouble (in some states) of getting the permit must have some reason for doing so, other than, meh, I can, so I will.
An additional thought. Carrying a concealed weapon is inherently non-confrontational. That is the purpose of carrying the weapon in a concealed manner – to avoid confrontation. This is true for agressors and defenders.
Kukulkan, yes, I agree. Everyone will have a different feeling for what reasonable odds are.
I still disagree that seat belts and helmets and the like are safety gear just like a gun.
There’s a big difference in attitude towards the people around you, I think. For me to feel like a gun is a good thing to have on me, I have to feel like there’s a reasonable chance that I’m going to encounter malicious people looking to do me harm. That’s part of what I don’t get. I’ve never really encountered that myself. It makes me wonder if other people have, and that’s where their desire to carry a gun comes from? Or if it’s something they’ve seen? Or something that happened to someone they know? Or if it’s just an irrational fear they have from watching too much news?
For me to feel like wearing a seat belt is a good idea I just have to feel like, sometimes people don’t pay enough attention when they’re driving, or drive out of their ability to control a car, or that I might be the one losing control, or not paying attention. I’m not expecting the people around me to be malicious.
#52 Kukulkan
Yeah, I suppose that is true. It’s not as in your face as open carry. But, it still seems like the desire to carry must come from you feeling like confrontation is reasonably likely. So, maybe you’re not actively looking for confrontation, but you are preparing yourself for it.
And I specifically wonder why Radley wants a concealed carry permit. Is it the work he does? Is it just to fill out his libertarian creds? Is it because of that weird run in he had in DC, I believe, where he ultimately sped away in his car, jumping a curb to get away from someone threatening him?
Sorry, I don’t know how to quote/reply to other posts.
JUSTIN @46
we dont get to choose the time or the place of a violent confrontation. If we are lucky and exercise situational awareness we may avoid it ever happening but better to be prepared (have a gun) and not need the safety equipment than to be in a situation where you need it and and dont have it.
It is about self ownership, self responsibility, self preparedness.
If you have ever been on the receiving end of a violent encounter you might think differently. And there is nothing “aggressive” about being prepared.
I agree with Justin that the comparison between seat belts and guns is not really a good one. They are not analogous to one another. First, in only the most bizarre of circumstances, a seat belt never makes a situation more dangerous. A gun carries a high likelihood of doing so. I don’t know the frequency of events, but there are definitely scenarios that are made more dangerous by the presence of one or more guns. A seat belt also has no risk of collateral damage. It is solely a personal decision. If I wear it, I’ll likely be safer. If I don’t, I take on the risk. A gun can potentially put others at risk and not just those who deserve to be at risk staring down the barrel of a gun.
I would also venture to guess that the odds of being in a traffic accident are higher than being the victim of a violent crime. And the success rate of seat belts are higher than the success rate of personal hand guns.
Now, none of this really constitutes a legitimate argument against allowing citizens to carry. I am no in no way attempting to head down that path. BUT, comparing a gun to a seat belt is a bit of a false analogy.
I am a retired LEO; started in uniform then became a detective. Thirty years total.
One thing I’ve learned is that you MUST be ever vigilant around hand guns. Accidents happen, even to the best of us. There are so many opportunities for a negligent discharge during very mundane tasks; unholstering, loading, unloading, cleaning etc. This is especially true with semi autos.
My department went to Glocks over 15 years ago. I chose to stay with my S&W .38, like Lenny Briscoe in Law and Order! While an excellent weapon, the Glock has NO safety. Don’t try and tell me that it does.
I second the recommendation to seek out the best holster. It has to be comfortable on you and easy to use (draw) when you need your weapon. Remember, when the adrenaline starts pumping you lose a lot of your motor skills. The last thing you need is the hammer catching on your clothing.
Real life use of weapons is very difficult to simulate. But you have to practice as best you can.
Since I stay qualified I am permitted to carry concealed. Quite frankly I do not carry much of the time, but only where I think there is a remote chance I will need it. Tends to be at night in urban areas.
Advanced Defensive Handgun Skills
Schedule: Culpeper, VA No Courses Scheduled for 2010
:(
BSK
Airbags explode in your face and have killed children-is that a better comparison?
As far as seat belts go I know some people refuse to wear them because they think the seatbelts may trap them in the vehicle.
Pinandpuller-
I would say that airbags are probably a better comparison.
I suppose my larger point was that a comparison is not necessary because I don’t know that there is really a direct analogy between guns and other types of safety equipment… which is not to say they aren’t deserving of the same umbrella term. Just that the serve a purpose and a function unique (at least as far as I know). We can play comparison games all we want. Rather, I think the best argument on behalf of something is to argue it’s specific merits instead of analogizing it to something else and then arguing on behalf of the something else.
So, are guns the same thing as seat belts? No. Does the fact that that comparison doesn’t hold mean they are not legitimately cast as a safety device? Absolutely not. There are sound arguments on both sides of the concealed-carrying debate. Talking about seat belts does not get us any closer to figuring out which argument is stronger.
A seatbelt is not like an airbag is not like a bike helmet is not like a can of pepper spray is not like a gun. They are all different and should be judged on their individual merits.
(Again, I’m not making a case AGAINST guns or concealed-carrying; rather, I’m pointing out that, specifically, I don’t think the gun/seatbelt comparison is apt and, more generally, it doesn’t matter, because the pros/cons of seatbelt use have no bearing on the pros/cons of concealed-carrying.)
Bigjay-
I know nothing about guns handling. Looking at your point… I wonder, can something be done about this? Could guns be improved to the point that they will always fire when they need to and will never fire when you don’t want them to? (Or, they’ll fire as reliably as they do now and do a better job of not firing when you don’t want them to.) I would assume advancements like trigger locks and safeties have made a world of difference, but are there reasonable improvements that could still be made or is the technology required not invented/not available/not feasible?
I know there is a lot of debate around some of these “improvements”, as many on the “pro gun” side of things view them as an impingement on their right to own. To me, some of this is legitimate and some of this seems to come out of a “dig in our heals, don’t give an inch” mentality. Again, disclaimer, this is an outsider’s perspective.
Anyway, many of the arguments against gun ownership is that too many “accidents” happy. Now, as someone pointed out earlier in a different vain, many of these “accidents” are not true accidents and are often the result of human error/negligence. But, for the times when the gun simply malfunctioned, are there reasonable improvements that could be made that aren’t being for one reason or another? Or are guns about as efficient as possible given reasonable expectations?
Justin,
I live in Montana where we have open carry so I don’t need permit as long as my weapon is plainly visible. Which it is sometimes depending on where I’m going and what I intend doing. Violent crime is almost non existent where I live but, I live in bear country and am always armed when out and about.
I also do a fair amount of driving outside my state. I stop at many places where I don’t know the people or the area and I keep myself prepared. I have family in California and traveling to visit them I pass through some shitty areas that are known for their crime rates. I’m not going to let myself become a number. Nor my family.
For the record, I’m a Para fan and will generally have in my truck a GI Expert, bear spray. When I’m traveling I carry a Warthog. Anywhere on my land a S&W 500. Like I said, I live in bear country.
#61
Legitimate accidents that have nothing to do with improper handling has much to (in my experience) with the quality of the weapon, poor QA from the manufacturer or even bad gunsmithing. Hell, it could even be a crappy design by a reputable manufacturer trying to get a less expensive model out.
My .38 Taurus revolver is a my sweetie pie! She’s got a cute little wood grain grip and a gold hammer and trigger. Could win a beauty pageant.
I’ve shot everything from a .22 Derringer to an SKS Police Assault Rifle to a 12 gauge and 20 gauge to .45 to a .357 Glock, and an AR-15 which I own as well.
My .38 travels everywhere I go.
I DO need to get a CCW though. Thanks for reminding me!
Sorry, as for trigger locks and shit like that. Some need them, some don’t. I have no use for them as the majority of my collection is safely locked away. Depending on the location the laws can be pretty stupid and nonsensical. I’ll bet my eight year old girls can handle weapons better then most cops.
Radley
All these clowns don’t know nuthin bout guns, ignor’em.
You want a BFG9000!1!!
>;-D
Brian@65-
Thanks for the info. I’m not talking about laws necessarily. But I would think we could all agree that guns with less manufacturer defects or other design flaws that contribute to accidents with no loss of effectiveness are better than those that have more. The gun industry is probably the most maligned legal industry in our country save for tobacco. To me, it’d seem to behoove the gun manufacturers to make every effort possible to genuinely make their products as safe as possible. That might lead to more sanity in the gun control debate (though I’m probably diluting myself if I think the intense gun control advocates would get off their soapboxes). I suppose that is asking something of the gun industry that we don’t of any other. But I, for one, would consider the pro gun argument a lot stronger if we knew that guns were being made as safe as possible. Maybe I’ve been influenced by one too many horror stories/Law&Order episodes, but there does seem to be enough sloppiness on the gun manufacturers’ part to justify the concerns about collateral/accidental loss from fire arms.
Of course, if I’m off-base here, please correct me.
BSK -
Notice how I said “negligent discharge” not “accidental discharge”. In cop-speak they are the same thing. Like pilot error, it is always your fault.
During the Clinton administration and the mass lawsuits against gun makers, there was a lot of talk about a recognition system on each sidearm, so that through prints on the grip your gun would know it is you. Kinda died when the lawsuits disappeared. As a practical matter, I thought it was a stretch at best.
Other than Hi-Point most guns are pretty well made and not susceptible to failure. Even bad guys have Glocks, Sigs, HK’s etc. All are world class weapons.
A last point: In order to be prepared as a concealed carry holder you need to have a round in the chamber at all times. This is what makes carrying scary. For non shooters, this means that all you have to do is flip the safety and pull the trigger. In the real world there is no time to cock a round into the chamber. One of my friends recently got his CCW and carries without a round “in the pipe”. I told him just to use it as a night stick and save money on ammo!
Thanks, BigJay. It sounds like, then, that the solution is more training/education for gun carriers and higher accountability, even for a negligent discharge and maintaining high standards for gun manufacturers. I’m not opposed for gun ownership, just irresponsible gun ownership. And given that guns have the possibility of incredibly severe negative externalities, I don’t think this is unfair to ask of those who choose to own/carry.
Envy here.
I’ve always wanted to learn. Why oh why do I live on the Eastern Seaboard, with no car, and probably will be living for the next four years on campus housing where weapons aren’t allowed? The gods conspire against grad students. Well, there’s a shooting club, and if I ask nicely maybe they’ll teach me.
(By the way, I’m not a violent nut. It’s just that I don’t feel good being entirely dependent on other people for my safety. It’s a skill I want to have, just in case.)
Justin,
Shit happens. We don’t get to pick the time or place. I’m sure George Tiller wasn’t expecting to be murdered when he got dressed for church that morning. None of the people at Luby’s in Killeen EXPECTED a looney tune to crash into the restaurant and walk around killing people. My brother in law was beaten severely with a pipe outside a Dunkin’ Donuts during a mugging years back. His handgun was in his car, in the glove box. They hit him as he was unlocking the car. Lot of good it did him in the glove box. He certainly was planning to be beaten and mugged that day. But it happens. Me, I ride a motorcycle all over the country. In my travels, I frequently cross paths with people of suspicious character. I ALWAYS travel armed. Never had to use it, but that Dunkin’ Donuts moment could happen anytime. Old saying in Texas “I’d rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6.”
Sarah-
To be fair, not having a gun does not making you solely dependent on others for your safety. In lieu of a gun, or until you are in position to own/use one, there are other methods of self-protection. They most likely are not as effective as a firearm, but let’s not reduce those of us without guns, either voluntarily or otherwise, to helpless runts incapable of defending or otherwise caring for ourselves. Take kickboxing or tae kwan do; get some pepper spray or a stun gun. Date Ben Roethlisberger… wait a minute, that would put you in FAR greater danger. (Sorry, cheap shot.) Guns are a GREAT way to protect yourself, if you know what you’re doing. If guns aren’t an option, there are still others.
As far as being on the East Coast, you are not necessarily SoL. I know there is a shooting range in downtown Manhattan, accessible via subway, for instance. Few people know about it, but it’s there. I don’t know if other cities have things quite that convenient, but I’m sure if you look hard enough, you can find something. And, if you really can’t, well maybe that is what you should be doing with yourself!
BSK – YW. BigJay is correct that most weapons manufacturers make quality products there are still some pretty shitty guns on the market. Like I said, I favor Para and it’s a little more high end. There are plenty of really well made weapons that are on the lower tier cost wise. BigJay is also correct when he notes that most accidents are human error. I applaud people that choose to protect themselves in any way possible including firearms, however a lot of folks get themselves a gun, shoot it a few times at the range and that’s about it. Maybe they shoot a few times a year at most. Ammo isn’t cheap but gun owners, especially those that are going to carry, need to make sure they are proficient with what ever gun they choose to carry and that means spending time shooting.
Sara – If you are not in a position to be able to carry a firearm the best thing you can do is learn a self defense like Krav Maga. Kickboxing is great but it does not teach you to be as hyper-aware of your surroundings which is the most important thing. I trained in Kickboxing for a few years and it’s comforting knowing that I can handle myself but like I noted above, I live in a very safe place. Also, get yourself a telescoping baton.
Take care.
Brian-
Do you think that gun ownership would be an appropriate place for the government to have stricter oversight/regulation in the form of courses required for licensing? I know that, generally, libertarians (which I don’t count myself as but am drawn to many of the ideas) are opposed to government oversight/regulation in all or most forms. However, given the potential for negative externalities, it seems like this might qualify as an exception. If you want to take a gun out in public, I think there is a common interest in you knowing how to use it. Now, obviously someone could slippery slope this to just about any thing someone might do it public… but that’s why I hate slippery slope arguments. If most gun accidents are the result of human error and the potential for gun accidents to have horrible impacts on those who might have no bearing on the situation, it would seem that requiring, rather than admiring, courses before licensing makes sense. These would not be utilized as a way to curb or restrict gun ownership, except in the case of someone so egregiously incapable of operating the firearm in a safe manner. Rather, they would simply be required courses that one must take/pass that offer practical experience for safe gun ownership. Also, these would only be required for people seeking concealed-carrying licenses or other licenses that allow the guns out in public. If you want to be a buffoon with your gun on your own property, I suppose that’s okay… just don’t aim at your neighbors’ windows.
Thoughts?
BSK -
Short answer is no. Licensing requirements differ from state to state and that’s ok by me. If one doesn’t like the laws one can always move. CCW’s issued in one state aren’t always acceptable in others. That’s their prerogative. You can leave your gun at home or not visit or break the law and deal with the consequences. Your choice. When purchasing a hand gun you have to show basic competence with the weapon. Load/unload magazine, safety on/off, chamber a round and such as well as having passed a basic firearms course (eight or so hours on the range with an approved instructor) in many places. This all seems reasonable to me. If one is going to voluntarily take on the responsibility of carrying then you need to also take responsibility for your bullet once it leaves your weapon. Everyone I know or associate with that has a CCW takes it very seriously and all have spent time at the range as well as defensive shooting courses. I’d hazard a guess that most if not all accidental/negligent discharges occur by owners that do not have a CCW. Perhaps those numbers are something Radley could look into.
Basically, if you have proven that you are not a violent criminal I believe you have the right to own a firearm. I also believe that you have the right to be prosecuted if you harm or kill someone due to your incompetence.
Brian
Buy a champion size 1911 for carry.
/end thread
Beretta 92FS, forever.
No nonsense about caliber, please. I put 147 gr. Hydra-Shoks on target.