TheAgitator.com
Now Appearing in Oklahoma: Arizona’s Immigration Law
Tuesday, May 4th, 2010Oklahoma state Rep. Randy Terrill wants to adopt Arizona’s immigration bill in the Sooner State, only with added asset forfeiture provisions.
Because what’s the point of passing a new law if you can’t also take away people’s stuff?
Those rich Mexican illegals. Senor Gomez was just on Fortune’s brown 500.
American dystopia: it’s not longer just a hypothetical.
You’re in it.
I oppose this entire movement, but the most depressing part of this article is the last sentance. “Civil rights groups in Oklahoma said the plan would encourage racial profiling.”
It’s a weak response that screams “We’re not cool with harrassing a slightly tan person just because he’s tan, but if he had a busted tail light, go nuts.”
You know what I SHOULD have read there instead?
“Civil rights groups everywhere said the plan is part of the continued assualt upon the founding principles of our country that we have held as an ideal during most of our history.”
Why is it the answer to every problem is to give police more ‘tools’?We have a 2000 mile border with Mexico and it will never be possible to close it off.The main problem in that country is the step in the drug war that is being encouraged and funded by Washington.The drug war can be traced back to fear of immigrants during the 30′s.It ironic,seeing most people here came in much the same way as people do now.
That is going to hurt their tourism industry. Oh right…they don’t have one.
Those rich Mexican illegals. Senor Gomez was just on Fortune’s brown 500.
I’m sure the asset forfeiture is intended for people who hire illegal immigrants. Something along the lines of, say, a person hiring a day worker to clean up her yard being subject to losing her house, or her car if an illegal is the passenger seat.
I am sure David is right.
I am not an immigration expert. I don’t know the ins-and-outs about the cost benefit analysis of having illegal immigrants in the workforce. However, it seems to me that they are the ones doing the dirty work (i.e. the work nobody else really wants to do). If you want to discourage illegal immigrants, it seems to me that the best way is to provide the tools for business owners to verify their employee’s status and then penalize the employers who hire the illegal immigrants. This I wouldn’t have a problem with.
But trying to pass a law to where you use a city/state/county LEO to seek and detain illegal immigrants (through racial profiling) is just flat-out wrong. There are many other ways for a city to improve (be it financially or by lowering crimes), but racial profiling isn’t one of them. As such, my family and I have boycotted AZ and will not be visiting anytime soon (even though my inlaws live there. We will do family gatherings in Las Vegas instead).
‘If you want to discourage illegal immigrants…’
throughout history, this has been battled with, from Franklin hating German immigrants, to Chinese migrants not allowed to own property, to Europeans during the 30s, to Vietnamese refugees, etc. I challenge anyone to show me where immigration has made us poorer. The way to eliminate illegal immigration is to eliminate laws that are difficult (if not impossible) to navigate. I tried posing as a Mexican male and legally immigrating to the US- I couldn’t do it. It takes years to legally move into the US and up to 10 more years to bring your family.
“Why is it the answer to every problem is to give police more ‘tools’”
I agree with your sentiment and the rest of your post, but must quibble with this particular phrasing. These are the same tools that they use for everything else and that is part of the problem. The only tools they seem to posses are arresting people and stealing their stuff. “When the only tool you have is a hammer…”
I saw Jay Leno at Correspondent Dinner his best line was; “That was my favorite story (this year) Republicans and a Lesbian bondage club. It’s ironic, Republicans don’t want lesbian getting married but they do like watching them “tie the knot”. So I thought that was interesting.”
You can say the same about Tea Party (they are haters not debaters or as others have dubbed them screamers not dreamers), they say they respect the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence but they do not mind passing laws, through weak Governors (no one voted for this crazy) who only care about getting reelected on the backs of undocumented workers, that will not pass Constitution muster, just like Arizona’s House Bill 2779 from two years ago, keep passing them Arizona and the rest of us will continue to challenged them in a court of law and you will fail again (and yes we will Boycott Arizona). Their phony patriotism is sickening; they are just racists going by another name. We all know you are just itching to put a sheet on their head? Let’s face it the Republicans had eight years to deal with health care, immigration, climate change and financial oversight and governance and they failed. It appears that the Republican Party is only good at starting wars (two in eight years, with fat contracts to friends of Cheney/Bush) but not at winning wars as seen by the continuing line of body bags that keep coming home. The Republicans party will continue turned inward to their old fashion obstructionist party (and their Confederacy appreciation roots) because they continue to allow a small portions (but very loud portion) of their party of “birthers, baggers and blowhards” to rule their party. I will admit that this fringe is very good at playing “Follow the Leader” by listening to their dullard leaders, Beck, Hedgecock, Hannity, O’Reilly, Rush, Savage, Sarah Bailin, Orly Taitz, Victoria Jackson, Michele Bachmann and the rest of the Blowhards and acting as ill programmed robots (they have already acted against doctors that perform abortions). The Birthers and the Tea party crowd think they can scare, intimidate and force others to go along with them by comments like “This time we came unarmed”, let me tell you something not all ex-military join the fringe militia crazies who don’t pay taxes and run around with face paint in the parks playing commando, the majority are mature and understand that the world is more complicated and grey than the black and white that these simpleton make it out to be and that my friend is the point. The world is complicated and people like Hamilton, Lincoln, and Roosevelt believed that we should use government a little to increase social mobility, now it’s about dancing around the claim of government is the problem. The sainted Reagan passed the biggest tax increase in American history and as a result federal employment increased, but facts are lost when mired in mysticism and superstition. For a party that gave us Abraham Lincoln, it is tragic that the ranks are filled with too many empty suits and the crazy Birthers who have not learned that the way our courts work is that you get a competent lawyer, verifiable facts and present them to a judge, if the facts are real and not half baked internet lies, then, and only then, do you proceed to trial. The Birthers seem to be having a problem with their so called “facts”. Let’s face it no one will take the Birthers seriously until they win a case, but until then, you will continue to appear dumb, crazy or racist, or maybe all three. I heard that Orly Taitz now wants to investigate the “Republican 2009 Summer of Love” list: Assemblyman, Michael D. Duvall (CA), Senator John Ensign (NV), Senator Paul Stanley (TN), Governor Mark Stanford (SC), Board of Ed Chair, and Kristin Maguire AKA Bridget Keeney (SC), she wants to re-establish a family values party, that’s like saying that the Catholic Church cares about the welling being of children in their care, too late for that.
Don’t agree with the forfeiture parts of the bill, but it’s pretty hard to have a county if you dont have borders!
I agree with djm. Obviously the racial element of this is problematic but like with the Henry Louis Gates incident last year I feel like it misses the forest for the trees. The real issue is more power ripe for abuse being given to police without even the dubious justification that it is an effective means of law enforcement.
Should we do away with our borders?
God damn this has to be a liberal site! I would have to think that even a member of the libertarian left would have to agree on having borders! Canada has borders, so does Iran. You will get locked up in both of those countries if you don’t have the proper paper work, citizen or not! If you were to look at the bill you would see that it is nothing more than a copy of the federal law.
Re: Marv Hamlish
“Canada has borders, so does Iran.”
My, what great examples of libertarian governments those are!
Libertarians are not opposed to having borders, what we are opposed to is having armed, militarized borders where people can be arbitrarily denied entry or exit on a whim.
I have a lady that works for me in Manila. Last time I was there I asked her if she ever comes to the US for vacation or to visit family. She looked at me like I was stupid (which I was).
Unless she owns property and has at least $100,000.00 in the bank (pesos that is, to prove she will come back) the US will not even consider granting her a visa. She is not welcome in our country. She does not have the right to bring her 2 little girls to Disneyland, or come visit the family members she has here (that came over or are descended from people that came over after WWII).
So for everyone that says they would be ok with immigrants if they just went through the channels and came here legally, please understand that there are no such channels for these people. They do not meet the requirements to even be considered for the years long wait method. Sneaking in is all they have. People will continue to risk death to come here as long as this country is worth risking death to get to.
But at the rate we are going, that won’t be much longer. Maybe that is our secret plan. Stop people from coming by making the US a place nobody would want to be. That will work out well for us.
Marv, many people I know would call a conservative in many respects,but,I know a unworkable policy when I see it.It has become a habit to write laws in such a vague and over reaching manner that they are ripe for abuse.The 4th and 5th amendments have been gutted ,along with property rights.Teenagers are being charged as sex offenders for normal teenage behaivor,the list goes on and on.Doing the same thing over and over is not working.See,I’m a small government guy and most so called ‘conservatives today are not.
The AZ law is the same as the federal law! Argue that!
The border between Austria and Germany is armed!
It was nice of the Nazis to figure all of this out and leave the blueprints so that lazy modern-day government agents wouldn’t have to reinvent the wheel.
Actually, that’s not fair to Nazis. States from time immemorial have been doing this. Nothing special about the Nazis after all. My bad.
#21 What does that mean, you sound like you’re drunk?
God damn this has to be a liberal site!
Welcome to The Agitator. I love this damn site.
Q. How do we solve the problem of illegal immigration?
A. Make immigration legal!
Fluke are you saying we should do away with our borders?
Marv Hamlish:
Are you saying your IQ exceeds your age?
#16 Matt I.: Excellent, succinct, retort to Marv.
#22 Marv Hamlish: “#21 What does that mean, you sound like you’re drunk?”
He’s not drunk, Marv. He’s an anarchist :) . And yes, HE thinks we should do away with borders.
Non-anarchists like Matt I. and myself don’t believe we should totally do away with national sovereignty, we just believe that it makes little sense to keep people out who want to, gasp, WORK AND IMPROVE THEIR LIVES!!! (these are acceptable “conservative” goals unless you are kind of tan and speak Spanish, I guess).
I am ok w/ Customs and Border Protection checking on people coming in to make sure they are not criminals or terrorists. But I don’t think you understand what a terrible, bureaucratic mess our immigration system has become. If my German and Irish ancestors had to deal with this crap when they arrived in the late 19th century, I might not be here.
Regarding Oklahoma’s attempt to out fascist Arizona, I will just say that my Mexican born bride and I will not set foot in either of these states any time in the near future. Any state that demands papers on “reasonable suspicion” is a dangerous place to be, in my opinion.
#17 Chris in AL: “Unless she owns property and has at least $100,000.00 in the bank (pesos that is, to prove she will come back) the US will not even consider granting her a visa. She is not welcome in our country.”
Very true, Chris. My wife’s parents brought her from Mexico to the U.S. when she was in grade school. She has explained this aspect of immigration to me before. When she reflects on the struggles of working people to gain entrance to the U.S. to work (and not to stay, in many cases), she gets very angry at the fact that wealthy people have a fast track way of becoming naturalized. She tells me that members of the cartels (read: wealthy people) live quite comfortably in El Paso and other border cities while non-criminal, poor people die in the desert trying to get here to make a little money to send home.
It doesn’t have to be this way!
Since my other comment was deleted I’ll say it again. If you don’t live in Arizona with these idiots, you have absolutely no right to say anything! And as for “Z” and his comment about illegal wealth, every Mexican I pass on the road drives a better car than me (I’m a senior engineer, I knock down some bucks). My entire neighborhood turned from white to brown 12 to 14 years ago (even the blacks moved out), so they own houses as good as mine. And I specifically know the ones in my neighborhood are illegal because they had the audacity to ask me if I’d write letters to Immigration and lie by saying I’ve known them for 10 or 15 years. And as for the bleeding hearts who think I’m a racist I’ll repeat what Penn and Teller said on their show “Bullshit”, just because you brought your sorry ass to my country, doesn’t mean I have to like you!
I am definitely not a nationalist Marv. I was quoting Kim Peek. When his father asked him what should be done about illegal immigration he just said “make immigration legal”. I always have gotten a kick out of that.
I think it should be much easier to be legal than it is. It costs thousands and thousands of dollars and takes years and years. It is a bullshit racket in my opinion.
I live in Georgia. My exposure to Hispanics has been for the overwhelmingly most part positive. They work hard. They believe in family. They mind their business. But to tell you the truth I never know if they are legal or illegal because I never ask to see their papers.
Oklahoma must not have thought the Arizona law was evil enough, so they added asset forfeiture to the mix, as if to say, “Now THAT is a wicked law!”
Really. Jail people for months or longer, separate children from families, take everything they own then drop them off in downtown TJ, impoverished and homeless. Could it possibly get more cruel?
A lot of folks just plain don’t like Mexicans. So they support laws that hurt them in the meanest ways possible and then say they are just concerned about law and order. Maybe some are, but for many the law is just a mask for their cruelty.
@straybeat,
it sounds as if those immigrants are working hard, and making a better life for themselves. you implied no illegal activities in their day-to-day lives, so it seems that you are just jealous of them doing well. i feel sorry for you…
“And I specifically know the ones in my neighborhood are illegal because they had the audacity to ask me if I’d write letters to Immigration and lie by saying I’ve known them for 10 or 15 years.”
Can you believe the nerve of those filthy illegals, asking a neighbor for help?!
Thanks for standing in for me Helmut, it’s good to see you back here.
Thanks Cynical. I’ve been around, just observing more than commenting I guess.
The real flaw in the logic here is that some folks believe that the violence and illegal activity is due to undocumented workers. In reality, violent crime is down in Arizona but the media and the hard-liners in AZ make sure that if an undocumented worker is involved, it’s big news, but the facts are that violent crime has slowed in the last few years in AZ. The law passed isn’t going to stop the real problem which are drug runners and smugglers, It isn’t even going to slow them down.
There was a great article in the LA Times featuring an interview with an ex-Phoenix cop who had to deal with these issues. (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/immigration/la-me-0502-lopezcolumn-20100502%2C0%2C2732982.column)
And he said it very plainly after a white cop was killed: “I told people that it’s not whites or Hispanics who killed Marc,” he said back then. “It’s drug-dealing cop killers. The issue isn’t ethnicity — it’s crime and drugs.”
And this is the real problem with this law is that it doesn’t address the real issue, at all.
Can you believe the nerve of those filthy illegals, asking a neighbor for help?!
I read about this one guy who, you know, said you should help your neighbors and stuff. Even love them!
I hope that every American, regardless of where he lives, will stop and examine his conscience about this and other related incidents. This Nation was founded by men of many nations and backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that all men are created equal, and that the rights of every man are diminished when the rights of one man are threatened. All of us ought to have the right to be treated as he would wish to be treated, as one would wish his children to be treated, but this is not the case.
I know the proponents of this law say that the majority approves of this law, but the majority is not always right. Would women or non-whites have the vote if we listen to the majority of the day, would the non-whites have equal rights (and equal access to churches, restaurants, hotels, retail stores, schools, colleges and yes water fountains) if we listen to the majority of the day? We all know the answer, a resounding, NO!
Today we are committed to a worldwide struggle to promote and protect the rights of all who wish to be free. In a time of domestic crisis men of good will and generosity should be able to unite regardless of party or politics and do what is right, not what is just popular with the majority. Some men comprehend discrimination by never have experiencing it in their lives, but the majority will only understand after it happens to them.
“All Men are created equal”! The founders had it right, when attempting to form a perfect union and they also knew that they were not there yet but knew we one day would get there. Lincoln moved us forward as did JFK and LBJ. This Nation was founded by men of many nations and backgrounds. It was founded on the principle that all men are created equal, and that the rights of every man are diminished when the rights of one man are threatened.
It is my contention that this AZ law is not constitutional and will fail when challenged (unless they add more amendments), pretty funny for this so called perfect law.