TheAgitator.com
Afternoon Links
Thursday, February 18th, 2010- New Yorkers embrace Bloomberg’s Nanny State. Bill of Rights probably wouldn’t win a popular vote there, either.
- Interesting reaction to my column on DNA exonerations discussing false confessions and the lessons for torture.
- Spies, assassins, and fake beards.
- This seems like a bad sign.
- See, we have to watch all this gay porn so we know how bad it is. Seriously. What? Why are you looking at me like that?
- This story about a school district using school-supplied computers to spy on students via webcam is making the rounds right now. Remember that it is one side of a lawsuit. I’m a little dubious. It seems awfully brazen to me. If it’s true, I’ll be the first to call for tar and feathers.
- He was immediately offered an internship at Dunder-Mifflin.
- What every parent should know about the TV show Glee. Wonderful bit of satire.
- Village of 292 people hires a Washington lobbyist.
- Atlanta woman arrested after asking a cop “why” when he demanded she move from a public sidewalk.
So much bad news, so little time…
Lower Merion is my alma mater and, frankly, this sounds exactly like the kinda shit they would pull. Perhaps we can take a cue from the sexting scandals: have the administration charged under child pornography laws and make them all registered sex offenders. That should keep them from harming any more children.
“See, we have to watch all this gay porn so we know how bad it is.”
It’s all bad these days. Gone are the sophisticated plots,cinematography, nuanced screenplays, and soundtracks of Misty Beethoven, Devil and Miss Jones, and Maraschino Cherry. Twas the Golden Age.
Come to think of it, the whole world has schmaltzed out.
Britney Spears? Lady Gaga?
But whatever.
On the NY calorie-posting issue, I have to side with those who want it. Whenever I have time, I go on a restaurant’s website and/or search for their nutritional info online and then base what I order on that information. Sometimes, I don’t have a chance to do this beforehand, so I get stuck “guessing” at what food is less-bad for me. However, if the info was clearly posted, I wouldn’t have to guess. And, since the law is geared towards restaurant chains (those with at least 20 locations), the mom-and-pops aren’t affected. The cost of posting the already-known information is minimal to the companies but helpful to the consumer.
As for the school activating the cameras on kid’s PCs, if the kid was changing and was caught naked, would they be arrested for child porn?
If it had been a 19 year old black male asking “why” I’m pretty certain the OPS would have acted differently.
I’ll also bet every black male in Atlanta (and Detroit, Chicago, LA, New York …) would agree with me.
Lets see… New Yorkers want healthy food or to be informed of which food contains what nutrients, the government does it, how is this a bad thing?
It’s also specious reasoning that just because we support bloomberg on what you call “nanny-state” issues we don’t support the bill of rights. Give me a break.
Additionally not only is soda extremely unhealthy for you (which I drink in moderation myself) but it often contains a DRUG. I’m sure Radley has no problem with marijuana being legalized and taxed (neither do I) so can you please explain to me how taxing soda is any different? You must really hate our “nanny” cigarette taxes as well.
How about you complain about some other nanny state issues like building codes and fire codes. Those really are awful as well. How dare the government create a minimum standard of safety for its citizens. We can always trust the free market to do what’s right! /sarcasm
The “schools using web cams in school-supplied laptops to spy on students” thing does happen, though.
CC
George fucking Soros…guess he’s gettin gready for the inflation he helped to create.
Tour Guide 2110
“Welcome to our tour of the ruins of New York City, once the center of commerce for the entire world.
Trillions of dollars once were exchanged daily in deals struck in the buildings that surround you. (Yes sir, I realize that a trillion dollars is only 20 Yuan, but a century ago, you could actually get a hot dog for $5.)
As the great Obamaflation took hold and the tax rate reached 98% on the average taxpayer while the City government outlawed everything but fortified soy paste for food, productive people left the city in droves, leaving only parasites behind them.
Speaking of the parasites, it is expressly forbidden to open the windows of this Armorbus®. If we were so foolish to do so, the parasites would suck the blood out of each and every one of us in a few seconds.
First, on your left, we see the Freedom Tower, which was never occupied after completion due to the onset of the Great Great Recession and the exorbitant rent demanded….”
Way to go LOlcat, you completely missed the premise. Thanks for playing.
People shouldn’t be taxed more for the things they do to their own body. It’s none of your damn business. Pot shouldn’t be taxed either. It should just be legal. If you don’t like what’s in cigs or soda, don’t consume and leave everyone else alone who does. Why can’t you just do that? Leave people alone and not push your values onto them. It’s not about safety or standards, its about controlling others.
Please step down from your high horse.
“Bill of Rights probably wouldn’t win a popular vote there, either.”
That’s a bunch of BS, Radley. I think you’re just pissed that calorie count laws work after all.
From the Atlanta woman arrested story:
I’m torn between wondering if she thinks her treatment would have been more okay if she hadn’t been a citizen and wanting to tell her that her citizenship is pretty much simply the government’s claim of ownership over her.
I agree. They would have beaten him first and then arrested him for resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer, resulting in less media attention because somehow it’s easier to believe that a 19 year old black guy would randomly assault a police officer than a 61 year old was being a problem by standing around on an empty sidewalk.
#5 Yes, I am in favor of scraping fire and building codes. I trust the market much more than I do any government employee.
#10 If by “works” you mean increasing the costs for businesses, then you are right, they do work.
I wonder if both of you also support your mayor’s conspiracy to violate Federal gun laws? You know, sending paid agents to make straw purchases. I wonder if they could get him on RICO charges?
The Bill of Rights probably wouldn’t pass a popular vote anywhere. After all, the Bill of Rights says that porn is legal, requiring prayer in school is not and that rapists and murders are supposed to get fair trials. You think those ideas would stand up to a popular vote today?
Building codes are great, especially when the government uses them as the basis to condemn vast stretches of homes so they can turn the property over to developers. Cause the government never fails or takes advantage of people, only the free market does that.
I would say that we should see who can be the snarkiest on this thread, but fucking Dave Krueger would probably win.
That Glee thing is hilarious. The show is good, but they autotune every song. That’s why I think it’s ruining America’s youth, not the gay thing.
I’m not advocating for torture, but I am advocating for honest argument. This has been beaten to death, but just to get this out there again. In the Guantanamo cases, the US did not torture to get confessions from anybody. For the three cases that we know of, we knew who they were and had a good idea of what they did.
As we know and agree, torture sucks at getting confessions, because everybody confesses (except William Wallace). On the other hand, torture is likely to be great at getting other information. There’s a reason for this. Your tormentor is going to go verify the information that you’ve offered, and if it’s wrong, he’ll be back.
In a forced confession, the victim is incentivized to give the confession even if it’s a lie so that the torture will stop.
In an information gathering session, the victim is incentivized to get correct information so that the torture will stop.
See the difference?
I really don’t like us going down that road (as we know, when you give the government a power to use against “them” it will *always* end up being used against “us”) but we have to be the honest side in the debate, something that liberals and conservatives have issues with.
If you want to see the wonder that is “lack of building codes”, check out what’s left of Haiti.
That’s why I’m a libertarian and not an anarchist. There are plenty of good uses for government, it just has to be kept on a leash. A very short leash.
I don’t have a problem with building codes in theory, just how they are implemented. The people who run inspections are corrupt like crazy, but there are legitimate public safety reasons for it (e.g. if I’m in an building adjacent to a giant fire hazard).
@Mattocracy
This is why libertarianism gets laughed at and is generally reviled except by those looking to exploit its ideas. The belief that something as benign as building codes exist solely to give the government more power to mess with your freedom shows a low-brow level of cynicism that relegates libertarians to public library basements. While building codes in at least some instances have been abused, to throw out the baby with the bath water is beyond support. Anyone who considers themselves a libertarian or anarcho-capitalist or anything of the sort should really evaluate what battles to pick. Building codes would not be one of them.
@17:
Probably true. I suspect that if it’s right, he’ll be back as well. After all, you’ve demonstrated your value as a source.
A little criticism (at least) would be welcome regarding the US unblinking support of all things Israel.
At some point they must stand on their own or we might as well make them the 51st state.
Michael Chaney, I know it is not a complete argument, but check out NOLA/Katrina and Fanny/Freddie for what government inspections and regulations can do. I wish a government inspection came with a guarantee, but it doesn’t.
Haiti has a government. Did having that government make the overall building quality worse, or better? And further – thought experiment: suppose we gave Haiti the building codes that Japan has, and enforced them stringently. What do you suppose would happen? Could they afford to comply? From where I’m sitting I assume that the Haitians mostly made the best choices they could, and that being terribly poor in a corrupt country just sucks. For example, you end up having to choose between having a flimsy house and risking an earthquake, or having no house at all.
‘In an information gathering session, the victim is incentivized to get correct information so that the torture will stop.’
That must be why they waterboarded KSM what, 160 times? Your theories about how Spock would torture someone have diddly/squat to do with what happens in the real world.
Jon Gray,
Could it be possible that there is another way? A private inspection coupled with motivation to improve safety and reduce capital loss can make tremendous advances. Most building code inspectors will confirm the state is often both behind current standards AND enforcing meaningless codes. There’s room for improvement and it would be dishonest to both eliminate a private market option out-of-hand and default that the state is the only entity capable of inspections. Again, I wish the state would ensure/insure safety when they inspect, but they assume no liablity. THAT alone is enough to cause a skeptic to question the process.
I don’t expect to convince you, but a good mind would be at least as skeptical of the current state model as they would with an optional private model.
That’s an unfortunate thing for you to say. And no libertarian is going to be caught dead in a PUBLIC library basement. At least be philosophically consistent with your insults.
Remember, you are beautiful and God loves you, Jon Gray.
Awesome bbartlog
+100
Don’t pay attention to Soros, but do watch Jim Rogers. The flight to gold (and the expected collapse* of the US$) could very well be the best thing to happen in the last 100 years. That is if you want to finally get government spending reduced to a level Ron Paul would appreciate. In the meantime, I strongly encourage Congress to pass endless trillions of dollars in budgets…which will hasten the collapse and help to eventually defeat the prevelant dogma.
*yes, “collapse” needs to be defined…later.
Classic. Citizens need to take a lesson from cops. NEVER TALK TO COPS (or any agent of the state). Fucking police union is amazing.
Regarding the fat tax, I am beginning to think that the business of forcing us to behave differently for our own good is such a growth industry that it will eventually employ every single adult in the country.
Between this site and scouring the web for content for my own site, it’s practically all I read about anymore. Pick any activity and there is someone claiming that it is harmful, needs to be regulated, studied, licensed, tested, and is especially dangerous to children. They all use the same time-tested strategy of defining the activity as broadly as possible so as to inflate the statistics (mostly guesses anyway) and then characterize everyone doing it in terms of the extreme cases. The mainstream media, which prides itself on real journalism as opposed to mere blogging, gobbles it up and reports as fact whatever numbers they’re fed by some advocacy group (which basically means all organizations outside of the realm of commerce) no matter how transparently ludicrous they are.
Drugs are used by millions and all drug users are helpless addicts. It’s an epedemic. It produces crime. We need a law. We need funding. For the children.
It’s the same with gambling, overeating, porn, video games, smoking, sex, driving, foul language, child neglect/abuse, excessive TV, violence/sex in movies, cell phone use, exploitation, hate crimes, work hours, human trafficking, obscenity, objectification, sun exposure, vitamin deficiencies, crimes against animals, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, disrespect for the poor/retarded/disabled, etc, etc, etc.
Whatever you’re planning to do tonight after dinner, there is probably someone out there who wants legislation to change how you do it. If there is anything constant about human nature, it’s the irresistible compulsion to force people to be more like we want them to be. While there has always been laws against almost everything imaginable, we have now lost the freedom that comes with privacy, with not having the government and your neighbors watching our every move. Not only have the laws proliferated and become more complex, but there is no escape, not even for a moment. Almost everything you do is observable by someone.
Imagine you’re painting a picture in a crowded city square where everyone in the square comes by and makes changes to your painting because they think you’re doing it wrong. That’s what our lived have become, except it’s not just the people in the city square, it’s the entire population of the country, if not the world. And they are all busy forming alliances and interest groups and political parties and religions, gathering power so they can overcome your resistance to the plans they have for you.
Yeah, I know what you’re thinking and the answer is, no, I don’t get invited to many parties.
# 29 DK
+ 1 million
The “painting a picture” analogy is a keeper.
Yeah, I know what you’re thinking and the answer is, no, I don’t get invited to many parties.
You can come to my party!
It looks like the school district is admitting the allegations without admitting them: http://www.lmsd.org/sections/news/default.php?m=0&t=today&p=lmsd_anno&id=1137
Arrested for asking why – Well…for anyone who doubts the growing arrogance and petulance of our police force…
This is a great example of what you get from decades of being lenient and accepting of the apologists for the police and pandering politicians who cater to the fear mongering, “we are all that stands between you and lawlessness….worship, obey, and dare not question us….and where’s my free fucking doughnut and coffee because by god I deserve it you worthless civilian nobody puke”, crowd.
EVERY community with a police department should be required BY LAW to have a civilian review board that is completely independent of the PD and other politicos.
I was responding to the drooling argument that “torture never works, everybody knows that. duh!” Clearly, it does. And, clearly, at some point KSM started talking when he realized that it wasn’t going to stop until he did. You’re right – it took a lot for him to realize that cooperation was a good idea. I read that, in the end, the guy was essentially giving seminars on al Qaeda.
Again, I’m not advocating torture, just honest discussion. The honest truth is this: torture can be effective at getting information out of people who have it. You might not like that fact, I know I don’t. But I’m not going to conflate two related but different uses for torture (false confession and information gathering), point out that the one doesn’t work and then build an argument based on that the other also doesn’t work.
I’m serious when I say this. One reason that I’m a libertarian is that I’ve found that, by and large, libertarians are intellectually honest in arguments. That’s how most of us arrived at our set of beliefs here. Sometimes that means acknowledging truth that we might not like.
The biggest problem in the torture debate with conservatives is that they start from a known truth (i.e. “torture is useful for getting information from people”) and then use that as a reason to perform the action (i.e. “because torture is effective, it’s okay to torture bad people to get useful information”). If you deny the original truth then you’ve lost the argument with these people because you’ve been caught in a lie.
The correct argument is this: yes, it works, but we’re better than that. We can’t talk about all the atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein and then do similar things. We’ve lost our moral standing if we do. America doesn’t do morally repugnant things even if they are expeditious.
The other argument is that if you give a government a power, even if it’s only used against “bad people” or “criminals” or whatever, it will eventually be applied to everybody. Case in point is asset forfeiture and the mess we currently have with innocent people having their money stolen at gun point by agents of the state.
@ Jon Gray,
So often people say, “Oh yeah, well this regulation exists and stop these bad things happening!” But they never consider that the same regulation can act as tool for wrongdoing. That’s what the comment is meant to convey, not that all building standards are bad. You read a little bit too much into, but that’s as much my fault.
My point is that there is no perfect system to alleviate the wrong doings of the world. The Free Market isn’t touted as a perfect system by libertarians that never allows harm, as LOLcat suggested. It just allows the least amount of harm because people have options and competition. No regulation is all good and vice versa.
#13 “If by “works” you mean increasing the costs for businesses, then you are right”
No by “works”, I mean it allows consumers to make informed choices, giving the added benefit of reducing calorie consumption.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/125807de-fb9c-11de-93d1-00144feab49a.html
Since Radley has argued that this wouldn’t happen and cited less comprehensive and inconclusive studies in support of his argument, I think it’s relevant.
YES! Completely independent citizen review boards which have the power to punish and/or fire a cop (without pension) and make it stick in spite of the police union.
#29 Dave – I’d invite you to a party. But I don’t throw many. You’re more than welcome to come over for a beer, a bong hit and some Frank Zappa though. Yeah…that’s about as wild as my middle aged ass gets these days…wooohooo. You can watch my 12 year old do bad card tricks.
The government doesn’t need to resort to building codes to condemn buildings. If you have a perfectly up-to-code home in a great neighborhood, our system still allows the government to condemn it for anything that can be construed as a “public purpose” — anything from building a highway to selling it to a developer –- they just have to pay you for what they claim is the market value of the property (with no allowance for moving costs).
My day just wouldn’t be complete without at least one tale of outrageous police misbehavior.
Having just read the criminal case associated with the Cocoanut Grove Fire, I think there’s a good argument in favor of some established building and fire codes. Without them, business proprietors have no standard against which to measure their behavior, leaving them wide open to civil or criminal charges of negligence or recklessness any time something bad happens.
In the Cocoanut Grove case, Barney Welansky was convicted on 19 counts of manslaughter on a theory that by running his club the same way most other club owners did, he was being reckless. He basically did prison time because he just happened to be the unlucky club owner whose club caught fire.
Having some level of regulation (we can argue over the correct level) allows business owners to avoid uncertain liability — as long as they’re adhering to a set of clear rules, when something goes wrong the presumption is that their behavior was prudent.
Haiti has a government in roughly the same way that Somalia has a government. Technically there are some people who serve nominally governmental functions, but their power is limited mostly to skimming large amounts of money for themselves from foreign aid packages. There’s no military, the National Police have no presence in most of the country, and the local “police” often amount to one guy who doesn’t have the resources to address serious crimes. As a result Haitian laws are pretty much just “suggestions” — most justice is “community” justice.
If you’re ever so inclined, take a trip down there and get the hell our of Port-au-Prince and into the countryside (in all earnestness, the people are incredibly nice). You won’t find much evidence of government.
Calorie labels? Ah, yes, a clear indicator that the people of New York would be as hostile to the core gaurantees of the Bill of Rights as would the ruling elites of Singapore or Zimbabwe.
First, they came for the salt shakers. Next thing you knew, the democracy protestors were all under house arrest.
If they are negligent or reckless, why should “regulations” shield them. Will we start holding the inspectors criminally responsible if people are hurt in a building they OK?
I thought Haiti’s problem was not lack of building codes, it was poverty. You can have all the building codes in the world but if most people are putting up a hut made out of whatever bricks and sheet metal they can find, it’s not going to help them magically be safe in an earthquake. Nations with wealth can afford to make their buildings earthquake-safe. Nations with barely any money at all are going to spend what they have on food, not on complying with a code. Sucks when there’s an earthquake, but if it’s that or have starved 5 years ago it seems like a silly regulation to be pushing.
Can I get a source on this? The only sources I can find making this argument can’t even loosely be described as credible and even they admit their source is the government’s press release.
I’m not overly bothered by calorie labels.* I suppose someone that doesn’t realize a Big Mac, a gallon of soda, and six pounds of fries is unhealthy might happen to glance at it and figure out they’re headed for a heart attack. Informing people isn’t really nannying. What IS nannying is taxing them in order to force them to make choices we approve of. If we’re really going to tax things that contribute to obesity, what’s next? A sitting in front of your TV or computer too long tax? It would be a lot more effective. Both in reducing obesity and in increasing outrage at government overreach.
*As long as they aren’t designed to hurt small businesses, which most of them are.
“As we know and agree, torture sucks at getting confessions, because everybody confesses (except William Wallace).”
Only reason Wallace didn’t confess was because they got all rushed and sloppy. Some people can resist the intense short-term torture that accompanies a gruesome medieval execution (they can only chop your balls off and tear your guts out and rip your limbs off once, after all); I doubt anyone could resist confessing if they were held indefinitely and gradually broken down.
“And, clearly, at some point KSM started talking when he realized that it wasn’t going to stop until he did.”
Well that sure would’ve been helpful in a ticking time bomb scenario. He might’ve told them all about it and exactly how to stop it only weeks after it blew up.
I agree that torture will likely get you accurate (though probably not useful) information… eventually. Though it’s not as sure as a confession – a victim CAN win by giving you false leads and otherwise fucking with you long enough that he can commit suicide or something, or until you just give up and execute him and/or move on to someone else.
I also agree that the best case against torture is that it’s just plain wrong, period, whether or not it’s useful. That doesn’t mean the pro-torture arguments are intellectually honest, and that we might be able to persuade torture apologists if only we grant their practical arguments. I also don’t think that the people who argue that “torture doesn’t work” are intellectually dishonest or even necessarily wrong – just imprecise.
Also, I think the very fact that torture is so good at extracting confessions is a very close second-best argument against it.
The biggest problem with governments trying to force restaurants to provide nutrition information and tax unhealthy items is that government doesn’t know what’s healthy or not. Trans fats, HFCS, vegetable oils, and the like have all been promoted because of bad government policy in other areas (such as corn subsidies, for instance). Real food has been under attack by the government for years.
Government forcing restaurants to post the nutritional information of their food is one of the few issues that my libertarianism compels me to oppose only grudgingly. Obviously, I don’t think the government has any right to force at gunpoint or threat of confiscation that a restaurant post any kind of nutritional information. But on the other hand, it really is low-cost, it’s not really that intrusive, and it really does help facilitate the transmission of information necessary for informed consumer choice, even if it’s only for a minority of consumers that choose to exercise it.
>>>>>Lets see… New Yorkers want healthy food or to be informed of which food contains what nutrients, the government does it, how is this a bad thing?<<<<<<
Because your statement is wrong. "New Yorkers" do not want healthy food or to be informed. SOME New Yorkers would like that, not all. There are a good number of New Yorkers, I imagine, that want good tasting unhealthy food. What about them?
Why not let the market decide? People who want that info should patronize estsblishments that publish that info…if they make money others will follow.
Yeah, I know what you mean. There are plenty of things I would like businesses to do that I know there will never do voluntarily. I’d like them to stop calling me at night with junk sales calls, and quit using rebates and “cash back” as sales ploys. I’d like doctors to guaranty their work with a refund if you die. I’d like my cable company to reimburse me when they have an outage. The list is endless.
But, because my libertarian principles tell me that government coercion is worse than doing nothing, I don’t campaign for these benefits (or rights as some people might refer to them). On the other hand, parties that aren’t saddled with that pesky need to be faithful to any principles, have no problem demanding government step in to regulate and control businesses (especially those that mostly support the other party).
Imitation pot – scrambling to criminalize possession:
http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=104&sid=1890821
A good reminder that the U.S. is nowhere close to ending the drug war. After all, there are still people alive who are not in prison, so there is clearly plenty of work yet to be done.
Amen. Whatever the US government decides is healthy…will be wrong. It will also be highly influenced by lobbyist$$$. Americans eat a whole lot of red meat and dairy after all.
So again, if the government wants to legislate away the bad and promote the good they should be liable when their advice AND force does damage. We’ll just wipe our mouth with the Constitution so it won’t get in the way of defining the role of government.
@#53
They can ban K2 and spice but that does nothing to ban the ingredients (JWH-x) that make it active. The pigs in missouri must be furious that there’s “pot” going around for which they can’t bust people. You know, for the children. Any 10 year old can walk into a head shop and buy this stuff. And as we all know, 10 year olds love frequenting their friendly neighborhood headshop.
Luckily there are people who actually know what they are talking about who disagree with you, JOR.
#15 Matt
I’d encourage you to look at the first image on the second page of this PDF if you think building codes are bad.
http://www.nationalgypsum.com/literature/hstudwall.pdf
A couple of things:
1) @ #36 Boomshanka — According to that study, 3/4 of the decrease was caused by people buying fewer items. Could that be because people were starting to buy less due to a declining economy as opposed to wanting to eat healthier?
2) For those of you that think that without government building codes and standards, all the building in America would fall down, you are forgetting one key factor. Building codes are independent of government entities. The IBC and UBC are standards commitees like ASTM, NECA, ASME, and incorporate those same standards. Governments can adopt these codes and add or subtract from them. Without government, owners could still pick a code to build to, hire a third party inspector, and have a quality, safe building. They could even use that as a sales advantage against competitors who choose to not build to a standard code. The last hospital I built was done that way, as it was technically on state land, so had no governing municipality. The new hospital I am building is in a different state, and that state requires to you to meet all sorts of new and interesting codes for seismic restraint. The owner is forced to hire an inspector approved by the state, who has no responsibility to the project, but does have the authority to interpret the code as he see fit and direct us as to how he wants us to build. HE can not be held liable for his interpretations of the codes, so even if he tells us to do something, and it is wrong, he has no liability, it is all on us. This is already starting to pop up in a couple life safety issues, where he wants a lesser installation than what we prefer to install.
Basically, it all comes down to accountability and liability, which can be determined via contract law.
#55 You’re right – the federal government currently influences food policy negatively by promoting unhealthy foods with legislation written by lobbyists. I get that. It’s “crony capitalism” as some here call it. So if Bloomberg gets a law passed mandating that the beneficiaries of this lobbying provide information about their food to the public, I’m all for it. Consider it a very, very modest attempt to wrestle some local control from the corrupt politicians in Iowa, Georgia, and other places who are willing to sacrifice the health of the country’s population for campaign contributions.
How can people affect change of bad national policy? Only through the collective purchasing power of an uninformed population? Is that the only idea libertarians have? Sometimes, a man has to sue Oreo for using transfats in cookies marketed to children. Sometimes, Calpers has to sue reckless bankers for gaming the system. And yes, sometimes, a local government official has to pass a law that requires the disclosure of poison in our food.
Adhering to a set of principles is one thing, but being slave to a rigid ideology…
@ #58 Ben — That literature doesn’t mention one word about building codes. It is a sales brochure about a type of shaftwall. It includes some typical details and a canned spec for an architect to include in the contract documents. I do see that it mentions UL Design U347 which is the standard for all fire-rated assemblies, not just this wall. As a matter of fact, none of their details have a UL Listing on them, so I’m not sure they have actually been tested and listed. There is also a listing for an ICC ES Report. I also see that the gypsum products are made in accordance with ASTM standards. All of those entities, UL, ICC, and ASTM are independant organizations. So, once again, I don’t see where government involvement is needed.
# 60 Nick M
No. From the article: “It also compared the New York data with sales at stores in Philadelphia and Boston, which did not have calorie counts on menu boards.”
#34 | Michael Chaney | The honest truth is this: torture can be effective at getting information out of people who have it.
[Citation Needed]
#62 | Nick M. | I don’t see where government involvement is needed.
Very simply because area separation walls are a pain in the ass to install (and, in the grand scheme of things, expensive) builders wouldn’t put them in if they weren’t required by law. But they’re the most effective way to protect adjoining units in a multi-family building.
@ #65 Ben — Really? Builders can just ignore the requirements of the architect’s drawings and build whatever they want? No matter that they are contracted to the drawings with the owner? Or are you saying that the building owner/developer wouldn’t have them because of the expense? Because, once again, that is covered by product liability.
#17 | Michael Chaney | February 18th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
#34 | Michael Chaney | The honest truth is this: torture can be effective at getting information out of people who have it.
I bet with a car battery, restraints, razor blades, some jumper cables, and a copious supply of IV administered dimethyltryptamine, I can make you say all kinds of shit. Doesn’t necessarily make it true just because I label these fun and games as “information gathering”.
“In a forced confession, the victim is incentivized to give the confession even if it’s a lie so that the torture will stop.
In an information gathering session, the victim is incentivized to get correct information so that the torture will stop.
See the difference?”
Semantics. One man’s forced confession is another man’s information gathering. If I believe in magic, and that it is accurate that you’re a witch engaged in the black arts, then getting you to admit this is merely information gathering to confirm my suspicions.
The problem with the current torture regime is not simply that torture is immoral or that it was applied to innocents. It’s that -we have no way of knowing- what was done to who.
The idea that the government can take someone and do anything to them and the only way we know they deserve it is because the government says so is the most inimical idea to liberty there is. It doesn’t matter what actual bad guys are out there who actually deserve torture–the problem is that once the government starts torturing them without review, it will eventually move on to torturing people who don’t deserve it.
Whether or not torture works or is moral in any circumstance is a red herring. If there is a circumstance where it is moral, and it is applied there, eventually it will be applied in immoral circumstances, and if it is applied without review, -we will never know- when that line is crossed.
jb – I agree completely. My point is, though, that if you want to create a convincing argument, you have to be honest. The linked text uses the “torture never works” argument, so the rest of what he says doesn’t matter since he’s either dishonest or clueless.
From what I’ve heard, calorie counts are dangerous for anorexics who are working on recovery.
Or are you saying that the building owner/developer wouldn’t have them because of the expense?
I’m saying that, given a choice, builders are going to go for the least expensive and easiest firewall designs. The Gypsum Assoc. is the final say on rated firewalls using gypsum. They say that 3 layers of 5/8″ FC gypsum is a 2 hour firewall, same as the area separation wall design I showed. The difference being the area separation wall allows the burning unit to fall away from the not-burning unit, making it more structurally sound during a major fire.
So, they can get the same rating and do it cheaper and easier. Except that the government (state in the case of CT) requires area separation walls as opposed to just a 2 hour fire wall.
WHATEVER. is the GLEE article satire or not??!! i can’t tell!! help please.
Originally Government had nothing to do with building codes. Building codes were created by insurance companies. Insurance companies formed and funded the first professional fire departments as well. UL and the other certification groups got their start from insurance companies as well.
The way it worked was that if you built your building to the codes set by the insurance company and used fixtures and equipment certified by an approved certification group, the amount you paid in insurance premiums was greatly reduced compaired to someone who didn’t.
If you were insured by a company, you had a large bronze medallion that you hung on your building that identified the insurance company. This meant that your building was protected by that company’s fire department. If somebody saw that the building was on fire and notified that fire company, they would come and fight the fire. The person who sounded the alarm would usually get a cash reward.
Lightning arresters, elevator emergency brakes and grounded electric plugs were all intitated by insurance companies. In fairness, this was done more to maximize their profits than as a public service, but in the long run both sides benefitted.
I saw Mike Huckabee at CPAC, and although he didn’t mention that he’s a homosexual, you can bet he’s the type of cleric who appreciates sweaty male on male porno
That Glee article was hysterical as satire. It was satire, right? I mean, nobody really thinks that “Golden Girls” was watched by teenage boys, much less that it turned them gay? Right?
‘M’ above comments about the autotune on Glee – he’s right. The autotune is so over-done that the show actually has it’s own particular sound. The vocals all have a weird digital after-effect, especially in the upper register.
For those who haven’t seen the show – the pilot was a bitingly funny satire and had some brilliant musical numbers. The series is pretty lame – it abandoned many of the things that made the pilot so brilliant, such as the a capella background music. Still, the pilot is worth a look on Hulu.
#18 | Michael Chaney — “That’s why I’m a libertarian and not an anarchist. There are plenty of good uses for government, it just has to be kept on a leash. A very short leash.”
Hey, Michael, be what you want. That’s what liberty is all about. But at least acknowledge that it is government that has YOU on a short leash, and it can never be otherwise.
Update on the school webcam fiasco. The feds are now taking a look at the story.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100219/ap_on_hi_te/us_laptops_spying_on_students
QFT.