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on Thursday, November 5th, 2009 at 12:49 pm by Radley Balko
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Guy, can you explain that more? I’m asking in earnest here because I am constantly debating with others trying to help them see how serious it is, not just that we tortured, but moreso how significant it is that we don’t seem to care in even the slightest most meaningless, or gesturing way! Acountability is the only way to avoid implicit or tacit endorsement of brutality.
Sorry, but I don’t feel sorry for at least the first 3. I quit watching after those idiots were profiled. Just because they were never charged doesn’t make them “innocent”.
Beggs was well traveled within Bosnia and Afghanistan. H was found with NVG’s, encrypted files, and a Flak Jacket. He also had a propensity for jihadi literature and there seems to be a payment voucher from al-queda with his name on it. His argument is he was there helping build a school. Sure, I’ll buy that. He talks so lovingly about his daughter, too bad his friends make it a habit of killing girls attending schools. He’s a lying dirtbag.
omar deghayes, another chechnyan “rebel” spouts the same kind of torture nonsense you’d expect from someone trained to do so. Check out what he claims:
* Saw a soldier shoot a captive.
* Witnessed the partial drowning of captives.
* Saw a guard throw a Koran into a toilet.
* Saw a Moroccan/Italian named Abdulmalik beaten to death.
* Saw another captive beaten until the floor poured with blood and he was left permanently brain-damaged.
* Was permanently blinded when a guard stuck his finger in his eye.
* Had excrement smeared on his face.
* Experienced sexual abuse, which was too traumatic to be described in detail.
* Was subjected to electric shocks.
* Was kept naked in the freezing cold and had freezing water thrown on him.
* Was starved for forty-five days.
* Received repeated death threats.
You guys buy all that? Of course the fact he was in afghanistan on a fake passport, belonged to a libyan terrorist organization, is seen on al-queda training videos and staying at the house of an al-queda operative is pure coincidence. Obviously he was just an innocent bystander.
Like I said, I stopped watching the video after the bisher al-rawi portion. Al-rawi, who had multiple ties to al-queda, gave monetary support and helped hide other al-queda operatives within the UK is by no means an innocent bystander.
If these dicks want me to feel sorry for them they’re sadly mistaken. The planet would be a better place if they weren’t on it. Should I feel badly for feeling this way? No. They belong to a violent, radical and extremist ideology and sometimes Karma works. I wouldn’t feel bad if fred phelps got hit by a truck, and I don’t feel sorry for these asses.
Maybe I should make myself a little clearer, I’m certain the US picked up people who were actually innocent bystanders. The first three guys on this video though, are not in any way innocent. They’re dirtbags. They don’t just hold beliefs that are the exact opposite of liberty, justice, and equal opportunity but they enforce those beliefs through violence and brutality. They’re actually worse than lynch happy Klansman and sometimes kharma is a bitch.
I’m right there with Token42. These people laugh at us, we are a big joke to them! The bleeding heart Americans who want “fairness” for all no matter what they think of us or are willing to do to us? Sometimes protecting our Country and American lives is not pretty and politically correct. Sometimes it is ugly and harsh and I for one am glad that there are people who have the balls to do what it takes to keep our Country safe and protect American lives. I don’t believe all of the allegations of abuse by any stretch of the imagination!!
Guy, are you for real?
karma is a bitch? that is just one step away from the view that “so what if i execute an innocent man – he will get his reward in heaven”.
The point is not whether or not these men are telling the truth about being innocent or being tortured. The point is they were held in a military prison with no oversight by the courts, and we have no way of knowing what is true. no court transcript, no taped interrogation, no recriminations for either wrongful arrest or mistreatment in custody.
Let’s see. So because someone is a lying jihadi douchbag, we (that’s you and me, good ol’ USA), as a nation deserve the right to do whatever we want with them? This is the opposite of justice and should never be tolerated within a “free” and just democratic society. Since these people are not POW’s (eyes rolling) they deserve at the very least a fair trial proving or disproving their alleged criminal acts. Of course we all know that that’s impossible. See comment above. Eye for and eye and all that. Our nation has zero moral credibility now. Zero.
The first three guys on this video though, are not in any way innocent. They’re dirtbags.
I haven’t watched the video yet.
Nevertheless, if they’re the evil people you claim they are, why weren’t they charged and convicted of anything? From the US government’s point of view, this whole problem could have been avoided by convicting them of just about anything. So why didn’t they?
Check out what he claims:
You guys buy all that?
I obviously can’t state with confidence that it’s true, in whole or in part, but given what some police officers are willing to do to their neighbors, on camera, in broad daylight, and in front of witnesses, it’s doesn’t seem to me like it’s beyond the realm of possibility that some or all of that happened to people behind closed doors who were labeled as evil terrorists.
#12, there is a massive difference between US citizens and foreign jihadi’s. We owe our citizens a certain debt that we don’t owe to violent, misogynist, homophobic to the point of murder, anti-liberty foreign asshats who have declared war on the rest of the planet.
There isn’t anyway anyone can argue that, at least the first 3 guys in the video, are in anyway innocent. The fact they weren’t put on trial doesn’t change anything. They were all picked up in foreign countries, not out of mistaken identity but because they are, ya know, jihadi’s. By all rights they could have been picked up and shot or just held forever, so the fact they were only held 4-6yrs should make them happy. Since we know, or you should know, they’re jihadi’s we shouldn’t believe a word that comes out of their mouths so I’m not buying their “I was horrifically tortured” b.s..
I don’t understand how anyone can feel even the tiniest bit of sympathy for these dirtbags, they got better than what they had coming. These assholes owe us, their families, the UK, and the rest of the planet an apology, not the other way around.
It isn’t blood thirsty or cowardly to believe that violent jihadi’s should get what they deserve.
But that’s not what you believe. You believe that these 3 specific human beings, for whom the evidence points strongly towards them being innocent of any wrongdoing (or else why are they being released), should suffer a fate worse than death due to having been labeled “violent jihadi”.
If that’s not bloodthirsty, cowardly, and evil, I don’t know what is.
If there is evidence of any wrongdoing by any of them, bring it forth, put them on trial, and give them whatever they deserve. Until then, sir, fuck off.
Do you think there’s a difference between jihadis who are fighting for Chechen independence (or for that matter, Uighurs who are fighting the Chinese government), and jihadis who claim to be fighting the U.S., Israel and Western Europe?
If you could go back in time, would you have rounded up the jihadis who were fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan and put them in Gitmo, too?
(That would be the same jihadis the U.S. was supporting with arms and money.)
Come on guys, this Begg guy traveled to foreign countries like Bosnia and Pakistan! Also in 1994 in his home he had a flak jacket (like aid workers use in Bosnia to survive mines)! And a handheld night vision lens! And after his store was raided numerous times by police, he started encrypting his computer! I think its totally clear this guy is an Islamofascist killer, and possibly also his wife and two children.
But wait, Al-Queda paid him to do something or other. We know this because the document was never presented to him or his lawyer or any court in his three years in prison. So clearly this ironbound proof must exist.
Having talked to many soldiers back from Iraq and Afghanistan, all this kind of stuff has just made them feel like they are better off just killing the combatants in the field rather than capture them and deal with all this crap. Just saying ….
The ‘higher moral ground’ won’t mean much to most Americans when a nuke goes off in a place like New York, LA, or Washington DC.
yeah, that “detained, tortured (LOL) and released without trial” is just like our friends in The Religion Of Peace practice it back home, so they shouldn’t feel too uncomfortable. unless they were homesick for *real* good old-fashioned middle eastern torture, not the “they yelled mean things at me!” kind going on at gitmo.
#8, unfortunately that “don’t give fairness” attitude has, for many years, been bleeding into the treatment of the citizens of this country on a daily basis. Pretty much everything on this blog is evidence to back my statement. People then become desensitized and don’t care what happens to their neighbor and community.
Tokin, I gotta tell you, the Chechens were in the fucking right. If Chechens want to kill Russian soldiers or government officials, more power to them. I don’t support their attacks on civilians, but until we start torturing Russians for what they did to Chechen civilians, I don’t favor torturing Chechens. Sorry.
And what the fuck do you mean by “traveled extensively in Bosnia”? The Bosnians were the good guys, dude. If some guy was in Bosnia shooting at Serbs, more fucking power to him too.
You don’t realize it, Tokin, but you’re ALSO a jihadi. If I took your post and changed the nationalities around, I could label it “jihadi literature”. You want to have people killed and tortured extralegally because you feel you have an indirect grievance based on attacks on third parties by third parties. Since you’re a jihadi too, can I torture you for a while? I promise only to use electric shock a few times. Or until you’re in a mass grave outside Bagram prison – accidents happen, you know.
No, I don’t. I think the majority of Chechen rebels are religious jihadis just like the majority of the Palestinians. I put them in the same camp with the jihadi’s within SA even though we all know the Saudi government is, in all phases, corrupt. Their ideology remains the same regardless of the government they happen to be fighting against and religious jihadis go wherever there is a fight.
If people want to argue the Uyghers and Chechens, like the KLA before them, aren’t actually jihadi’s since they’re fighting for their national independence and not necessarily their religion, then that’s a tougher argument but that isn’t what happened with these 3 or the Uyghers formerly held at gitmo.
I’m sure there are chechens, uighurs, and palis who are actually fighting for their national independence but those aren’t the ones traveling the globe to join any fight they can like these 3.
James D., so if we get nuked, it will be because we didn’t just kill them all? Really? It’s funny, because there are a lot of terrorists who argue that the reason Muslims get attacked is because they’re not killing enough Westerners. You have a lot in common with them.
If a nuke goes off in Washington DC or LA, it will be because of people like Tokin. My firs statement the minute the ticker goes across the screen on CNN will be, “This is that cunt Tokin’s fault.”
Do you really think a jihadi, a religious zealot determined to physically force you to “submit”, gives a real shit what either of us thinks about them beyond the whole “submit or else” thing?
Thanks to letting these 3 go we have absolutely made this world a more dangerous place. It doesn’t matter if the US pulled back within their borders, or the soviets leave chechnya, or the chinese carve out a nation for the uighurs, It’s only a matter of time before these three take their act back on the road again. When that happens, I’ll remember what fluffy said.
Tonkin42, you’re very, very quick to believe the government’s case against these guys and very, very quick to dismiss their claims. Why? Gut feeling?
Why do you think that the government should have the power to hold people indefinitely without evidence of wrongdoing? What has the government done to justify such profound trust?
I mean, our Constitution was created with the notion that the government is not to be trusted, so they have to provide evidence before they imprison people. Why were the Founding Fathers wrong to design the Constitution this way?
Fluffy “If a nuke goes off in Washington DC or LA, it will be because of people like Tokin. My firs statement the minute the ticker goes across the screen on CNN will be, “This is that cunt Tokin’s fault.”
You don’t realize it, Tokin, but you’re ALSO a jihadi. If I took your post and changed the nationalities around, I could label it “jihadi literature”. You want to have people killed and tortured extralegally because you feel you have an indirect grievance based on attacks on third parties by third parties.
Somehow I missed this. I missed where I said we should pick people up willy-nilly, torture them, and hold them forever. Maybe you could point out where I said that for me. What I said was these 3 are not INNOCENT in any fashion of the word. These 3 are religious zealots traveling the world trying to reek havoc. These 3 were not picked up by accident. If you want to take these 3 at their word when they claim torture then go ahead and knock yourself out, but I don’t believe a word that comes out of their mouths.
2 of the 3 were captured in afghanistan and the other in Gambia. We can argue some other time about the makeup of the average Chechen Freedom Fighter but that is missing the point of what happened here, in this instance, with these 3. None of these 3 are from Chechnya, they went there to fight for their religion not for the national pride of Chechnya.
BTW, today is a really bad day to be arguing religious zealots are not a danger.
#35 You call the putin regime what you like, and I’ll stick with the word I like. Maybe when he stops assassinating political opponents and critics and stops invading his neighbors I’ll be able to look in his soul and see the change. Until then….
#34 & #36 Les,
I’m not sure how people can look their history and the cases against these 3 and come away with any idea other than they’re jihadis and pointing out religious zealots are dangerous isn’t a strawman argument. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, travels to all the islamic jihadi hangouts, and films jihadi videos for al-queda, then it’s probably a duck.
“violent, misogynist, homophobic to the point of murder, anti-liberty foreign asshats who have declared war on the rest of the planet”
I suggest checking out Blackstone’s formulation: “better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”. If the US government doesn’t have proof then they have absolutely NO right to detain anyone.
Another thing to ponder: Bad thoughts are not illegal, you cannot be tried for thinking illegal things. If you act on these thoughts then yes, you can be tried.
If you came to my country (yes, it is a western nation – not that it matters) and committed a crime then you would tried by lawful legal process.
If you came to my country and simply thought your murderous, violent, liberty-hating thoughts then we wouldn’t do a damn thing.
I put liberty-hating in there for a reason. You should take a closer look at the US Constitution, more specifically the Fifth Amendment. Your nation is based on that document yet you seem to have little regard for the bits you don’t like.
Tokin, what is your theory as to why they were released if they were obviously aiding and abetting al-queda?
…pointing out religious zealots are dangerous isn’t a strawman argument.
If all religious zealots were the same, maybe it wouldn’t be. But they aren’t. And it doesn’t matter if these three were or weren’t religious zealots, because it’s not illegal to be a religious zealot. What matters is what crimes they committed and why the government released them if there was sufficient evidence to charge them with crimes.
Frank Hummel |
November 5th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Brings to mind a conversation from Judge Dredd:
Herman Ferguson: Dredd? What are you doing here?
Judge Dredd: I was convicted of a crime. Wrongly.
Herman Ferguson: [laughs] That’s kinda weird! What are the odds? Two wrongly convicted guys sitting right next to each other?
we all know the Saudi government is, in all phases, corrupt. Their ideology remains the same regardless of the government they happen to be fighting against
Replace Saudi with USA and you have equivalence. It’s all about whose empire is going to rule and who kills the most. Sometimes I wonder if religious fighters or whatever you want to label them are being more honest in their actions compared to the USA government.
“James D., so if we get nuked, it will be because we didn’t just kill them all?”
Um, where did I or Tokin say “kill em all!” I missed that part. I also missed where I said “cut off their arms/legs/appendages and torture them at will!”. You guys sure put words in someone’s mouth when you want to.
I’m pretty sure our basic point is that unlike what your ‘sources’ would have you believe, some of use have heard from ‘insiders’ that: a) most people at Gitmo deserve(d) to be there and b) we’ve gotten some invaluable intelligence and you don’t even know what’s been prevented by ‘enhanced interogation’ because when something is prevented it isn’t always reported.
And yes, some of us think there IS a cut-off point between torture (the kind most other countries have done to our soldiers) and something like waterboarding. Just like abortion, some will never agree what is ‘too far’. Sorry.
I’m sure some of you on your moral high horses have no problem when a fetus’s brain is crushed and sucked out of a woman’s body. That’s the kind of innocent death that keeps me up at night … not most of these asshats.
You are truly a beacon of freedom. Your bravery and patriosm are unsurpassed. Our nation is better because you live here, and share your beliefs and question authority. I thank you for your agitation, you are a great American.
Um, where did I or Tokin say “kill em all!” I missed that part.
Here’s what you said, James.
“Having talked to many soldiers back from Iraq and Afghanistan, all this kind of stuff has just made them feel like they are better off just killing the combatants in the field rather than capture them and deal with all this crap.”
Okay, well, what is “the field?” Is it anywhere these guys were captured? Because it certainly wasn’t during a battle.
I’ll ask you what I asked Tokin. What crimes did these guys commit?
As far as your “insiders” go, there are plenty of folks in the military who have gone on record denouncing waterboarding as torture and opposing the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. “I know this guy in the army who says…” is not a valid argument for violating the Constitution.
If you think we need to torture folks and hold them without charges to prevent a nuclear attack, then I’m afraid your opinion is not only un-American, but cowardly, as well.
[…] The ACLU produced this video about men who were held at Guantánamo for years without charge then, after being tasered, suffocated, raped, punched, blinded, and spat upon, were released without charge. (Via The Agitator) […]
We’re obviously going to disagree on what we think the needed level of “proof” is in order to detain someone. The way I read the geneva conventions all we have to do is believe they are a threat in order to hold them and we’re allowed to hold them as long as we continue to believe they’re a threat. Our constitution gives our elected officials, not judges, sole responsibility in these matters. I take that to mean our founders understood war is not only a military issue but a political one as well. It’s up to the voters to determine if we approve of the handling of detainees, not anyone else.
I’m not making any other judgments in this argument other than the situation of the first 3 men on this video. In all of their cases I think the evidence is more than enough to believe they’re a danger, you obviously disagree.
Unfortunately Tokin, we’re wasting our breath. Seems like some people here equate these barbaric people as no different than occasional marijuana users who are victims of wrong-door raids. Some of us can see a difference though ….
November 6th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Ahh, gotta love the spineless bleeding heart libertarians that try to sympathize with violent terrorists.
I’m not making the case either way but when you ask:
“Why weren’t they tried? Why were they held for years and systematically tortured?”
… my understanding is they weren’t tried because they were treated as enemy combatants and prisoners of war. And to some extent, interrogation methods can be employed. I’m not going to step into the fracas and make the case for either side – but that is my understanding of the Fed Gov’s position. To some degree, the interrogation process was assisted by the Executive branch which only exacerbates the problem.
In my opinion the government has straddled the enemy combatant divide by essentially crafting a new class of combatant which is essentially a terrorist with no formal army. By playing on the razors edge of classification, they’ve fallen on both sides in order to protect their method of reasoning and justification for their actions.
Now before you start calling me a soft-cock liberal that should be thankful that other people are protecting my freedom you should know that I have served honourably in the military of my own country (and may re-enlist sometime in the future).
i wonder if someone’ll make a weepy documentary about “justice denied” about the 13 soldiers killed by an officer and a gentleman who practices a religion that doesn’t have anything at all to do with his brave, manly, unprovoked attack on his unarmed, unknowing brother soldiers. with lots of deep, mournful cello music as the friends of the dead realize tearfully that the massacre was actually all the fault of the dead guys, and the shooter – who biased, hateful, inflammatory reporting is saying was shouting “allahu akbar” as he bravely shot at his unarmed victims – was really a messenger of justice sent from above to punish us for our sins at guantanamo, where the poor, tortured souls entombed there continue to gain weight and clamor for more harry potter books. “ending the series is torture!”
well, i’m sure this is all just a matter for the courts to decide, as *clearly* there are no other issues in play here.
still, it *was* pleasant to see that he was gunned down by a **girl**. i hear that’s kind of a burn in some cultures.
your stirring line about “america” aside, i’m afraid that’s not how it’s gonna be for hassan the mighty; nidal the brave. he was a military officer committing a crime against military personnel on a military installation.
that makes him subject to military justice, IIRC. with any luck, they’ll find him guilty of murder *and* treason, and have him shot or hung – whichever hurts the most. i’m personally hoping for an all-female firing squad, but that’s just me. maybe they could all yell “jesus saves!” as they fire. maybe obama could give a “shout out” to the execution unit.
still, i’ll give the guy credit: as opposed to the oppressed innocents at guantanamo, nidal the warrior at least wore an identifiable uniform when he opened fire upon unsuspecting innocents.