I’m glad I didn’t disappoint you; it is always good to be of service. I don’t really have anything more to add, though I do think it’s important to clarify an important point about terminology and intellectual honesty:

“Post-modern moral equivalence b.s. at its most annoying!”

I’m going to be nice and just gently point out that you don’t seem to grasp that “post-modern moral equivalence” is, if you’re using (as I suspect) the silly epithet “post-modern” to indicate something like moral antirealism or relativism, an oxymoron. Now granted, usually “moral equivalence” is a just fudgy snarl word people employ when they don’t like the conclusion of an argument, so it could just be tacked on to “post-modern” or “relativist” or what have you purely as an intinsifier, I guess, without rendering the sentence meaningless. But to the extent that it actually means anything, it means “judging the actions of different agents by the same standard”. So either I’m practicing moral equivalence (i.e. objective moral reasoning) or I’m being post-modern. And I don’t see how you can claim with a straight face that I’m being post-modern (anymore than Augustine was when he said that a kingdom, absent justice, is merely a great robbery, with the implication that unjust kings and their men-at-arms deserve whatever robbers deserve).

If they are going to claim on national TV that they were never thrown out of an ACORN office and never caused a disturbance while being thrown out, which they have done, and the Philly office has a police report to the contrary, then yeah, I’d like to see their video of what really happened.

Other than seeing who is lying about Philadelphia, I don’t care all that much, although it would be interesting to see whether they have videotape of their visits to Chicago, Miami, LA and two other cities where ACORN claims to have records of them stopping by and being kicked out.

I’ve got mild interest, though of course, the people who really want those tapes released are the folks at ACORN. Again, my guess is the real reason behind their lawsuit is to get the entire set of tapes as part of discovery.

((((I’m not sure where that argument comes from.)))

Then we’re even. I’m not sure where yours is coming from.

((( The press routinely edits their video to make whatever point they’re trying to make regardless of the reality of the situation. The “layers of fact checkers” are non-existent. If you haven’t learned by now that you cannot trust a word that comes out of their mouths then I don’t know what to tell ya.)))

I judge things on an individual basis and try to look at a lot of sources. I’d say blanket disbelief is as irrational as blanket belief.

((( If I accept your argument that they’ve only released edited video to make someone look bad that still isn’t any different than any of the CBS/NBC/ABC/Cable news programs.)))

If CBS/NBC/ABC/Cable news makes claims that something didn’t happen that they would logically have on tape if it had, and a police report strongly suggests that it did happen, and the network refuses to release the tape, then you’re correct. Otherwise, I’m again not sure where you’re coming from.

((((BTW, it was an easy thing to go to:
http://biggovernment.com/author/jokeefe/
to find the unedited videos and transcripts, minus the philly video thanks to the lawsuit.))))

That’s very strange. Because they aren’t getting sued in Pennsylvania, they are getting sued in Maryland and the Maryland tape is still up as of right now.

So what you’re saying there doesn’t make a lot of sense. As far as I know, the Philly tape has NEVER been on biggovernment.com, though Giles and O’Keefe have not denied that it exists.

((((One last thing, if the Philly sting went down like ACORN says, then why did they fire the guy and how is that Okeefes fault?)))

Nobody in Philly got fired. As far as I know, there’s no tape of the Philly folks doing anything that even looks wrong. Stands to reason that if there was, they would have released it. The man who got fired was in San Diego.

((( If the man didn’t do anything wrong, then ACORN was at fault for the firing, not the two kids. )))

If you don’t know that “didn’t do anything morally wrong” and “didn’t do anything that could get your ass fired” are different things, then I don’t know what to tell ya. By playing along with those kids and getting lots of information by pretending to be a thug himself, he made his employer look really bad even though morally he was doing the right thing.

(((These two kids took down a multimillion dollar organization on their own, that’s impressive no matter what you think of ACORN.)))

I’m not sure what you mean by “took down.” A very small percentage of ACORN’s funding was federal and my impression is that they aren’t going anywhere.

I’m also not sure what you mean by “on their own.” At this point O’Keefe and Giles have admitted that they had a help and coaching from various conservative bloggers and the like.

So yeah, it doesn’t seem so impressive. It just seems like Micheal Moore’s bullshit, except coming from the other side. I feel like one Micheal Moore is enough for the world.

CC

Are degrees really an accurate measure of intellect anyway? Perseverance maybe. (But hey, at least everyone’s goin to college, wooo!)

“I’m just saying, lets advocate for an end to the maddness without giving into blood lust.”

I’m missing how “i’m glad they got hurt after putting themselves in danger” equals “blood lust”. Someone better let the darwin awards guys know that theyre incredibly insensitive and immoral for fueling their readers’ “blood lust.”

If youre a cop, and you have ANY concern for your own safety, you would not participate in this sort of activity. You’d follow the guy to the quickiemart and grab him out in the open, preferably during daylight so you can actually see the suspect well.

Or you quit and find a line of work that wont get you killed. Sure, you wont get that pension, but i think your family would rather have you than your pension any day. And you’d be surprised at the thrill you can get being a wal-mart greeter.

Since government attracts the kind of person who craves power and is dangerous to society, it acts as a magnet, pulling those people from society and publicly identifying them.

Thus, private citizens have the opportunity to know exactly who certain dangerous people in society are and, while disadvantaged because of the official power vested in those individuals, can at least take some preparatory steps to defend against said dangerous people or at least know them when they see them.

Just think how dangerous the world would be without government, where no one would know who was dangerous until they acted. A government official has tipped his/her hand.

The problem is, most police officers never shoot anyone during their careers. Many draw their service weapons only occasionally. Most spend more time doing interviews, completing reports, and engaging in service-oriented tasks (motorist assists, traffic direction, first aid on EMS calls) than they ever will on pursuits, riot control or fighting with citizens .

In addition, most officers are not SWAT/Narcotic officers who involve themselves in actions such as these. And as I pointed out, these events don’t occur everywhere. Some tactical units are used only in emergencies and not for regular warrant service. Law enforcement is very fragmented in the U.S., and for good reason. Thus, there can be rather striking regional and local differences.

Part of the reason I’m urging you guys not to act in this manner is that this is my field (sort of). I was a criminal justic major. I work in a related public safety field. I understand the system as an insider, and as a dissenter. I continue to believe that without the baggage of the drug war, American policing could take a different form that would be much more compatible for a free society. I understand that tactics such as no-knock raids are bound to result in deaths for ALL involved. I’m just saying, lets advocate for an end to the maddness without giving into blood lust.

Maybe…still doing a happy dance though. If I had been alive back in the day, I would have rooted for Bonnie and Clyde and Dillinger : ) The fact that they are cops participating in an unconstitutional no knock raid is enough reason for me to do a happy dance. Want to tread all over the constitution? Then I will feel no pity when it comes back and bites you in the ass…I make no apologies for my lack of sympathy. I reserve it for those I feel deserve it.

“Thus, I have the same question for you as Zappa Crappa. Unless you guys know for sure that these officers in NJ were involved in all sorts of illegal and immoral acts, then you are punishing people for the faults of others in their occupation.”

Uhhhm…I’m not sure how your logic works but I am punishing no one. I just don’t have a lot of respect ( I used to…back in my days of ignorance). But on that same line, I DO hold the good ones accountable for the faults of others in their occupation because THEY allow them to continue by their code of silence and lting to cover each other’s asses. In my book, that makes them just as guilty and in some ways, maybe even more so.

Until things change, I will continue to do happy dances when cops get a dose of what they dish out on a regular basis…they are big boys, I’m sure they can handle the disdain and lack of sympathy of yet another civilian nobody.

JOR did not disappoint me. I suspected that he was a moral degenerate, and his attempt (#60) to justify his earlier comment (#45) proved it. Post-modern moral equivalence b.s. at its most annoying! They’re all gangsters, blah, blah, blah. Gotta side with somebody, yadda, yadda, yadda. Are your really that intellectually lazy? The policies that lead to no-knock raids and illegal wars must be overturned. The architects of such policies must be held accountable. Rooting for gang members or religous extremists, on the other hand, solves nothing. It just proves you are an immoral simpleton. This is not a damn football game, this is real life.

As bad as things are, the public can still influence the police department. If departments and government agencies don’t listen, then there is always YouTube. I am a big supporter of “little brother.” In some communities, this public influence is obvious, because shit like this doesn’t happen (I’m thinking specifically of some college towns I’ve examined, where the police are held on a tight leash by citizens and city councils alike). But what influence do we have over actual gangsters, JOR. The people DO NOT have mechanisms in place to regulate their behavior. As Orwell grudgingly pointed out (paraphrasing), “if I must deal with a bully, I’d rather deal with a policeman than a gangster.”

We don’t know exactly what brought this raid about. But I don’t think it was a b.s. raid. Federal agencies generally don’t get involved in petty drug or gun cases. Hopefully more will come out soon, but keep in mind that not everyone involved in these raids is a Mayor Calvo or Kathryn Johnson type. That doesn’t justify the drug war, and it damn sure doesn’t justify these reckless tactics. But I rather doubt this is a case of a completely innocent homeowner standing his ground.

Zappa Crappa: “Why should I be held to a higher standard than the ‘glib’ cops who laugh and celebrate after they have hurt/maimed/killed someone who might or might not be guilty of anything more than have an address similiar to the one they were trying to go to? Why? I have hurt no one. Directly or indirectly…unlike them.”

Do you know any of the officers that were shot in NJ? Do you know for a fact that any of thes officers have ever in their careers acted in this fashion. If not, that would be a strawman argument, and a very poor excuse for you to do the “happy dance.” Puke.

Dave Krueger: “…But, this website is a witness to the chronic institutionalized imposition of precisely that kind of suffering and tragedy on non-violent, often innocent, citizens by law enforcement who’s only qualifications for membership are a single digit IQ, an ego nurtured in testosterone, an unabashed certainly of their own self-importance, and an absolute lack of regard for the public they ’serve and protect’.”

Dave, I am a regular on the Agitator. I know all this. My problem with some of these comments is that they involve overgeneralization and gleeful cruelty. Thus, I have the same question for you as Zappa Crappa. Unless you guys know for sure that these officers in NJ were involved in all sorts of illegal and immoral acts, then you are punishing people for the faults of others in their occupation. All I know about this case is that this was poor strategy that resulted in multiple injuries.

You and Zappacrappa also made light of the qualifications of LEO’s. I share your concern about the jock, bully behavior covered on this sight. But comments about IQ miss the point (Is IQ really an accurate measure of intellect anyway?). More officers today have bachelor’s degrees, or at least associates degrees. Many command level officers seek advanced degrees. I would like to see some college level education mandated, personally, but that will not solve the problem. You are above “cops are stupid” rhetoric, Dave. Please don’t add to the confusion.

People have to stand up and end the delusion that there will ever be a “drug free America.” This is what it will take to make us more safe and more free in this country. Shootouts with law enforcement will not lead to more freedom for anyone.

Unreasonable searches and seizures are illegitimate. The Supreme Law of the Land says so quite plainly.

A government agent who conducts an illegitimate no-knock is a robber. Such a person fully deserves any harm that may befall him.

Without knowing about the particular case at issue, I can’t be sure that the government agents deserved what they got, but since the vast majority of no-knocks are conducted unreasonably, it would seem a fair guess.

you forgot to add “After all, it’s for the kids.”

God knows we’ve seen what the state views as acceptable collateral damage.

I don’t for a minute hold against anyone on this site the animosity or anger they hold toward law enforcement, prosecutors, or courts. I think there’s an infinite difference between someone who wishes misfortune on someone in a moment of anger and someone who systematically imposes misfortune on someone as a career choice.

Why should I be held to a higher standard than the “glib” cops who laugh and celebrate after they have hurt/maimed/killed someone who might or might not be guilty of anything more than have an address similiar to the one they were trying to go to? Why? I have hurt no one. Directly or indirectly…unlike them.

Sorry…still doing a happy dance and will do so until there is some accountability and some changes made that stop giving former high school bullies with teeny weeny peeny syndrome badges, guns, and approval to terrorize the citizenry at their whim.

These police officers I won’t feel bad for unless and until I see that search warrant application.

If police put the serial number of the gun that shot them on the application for the search warrant I have some empathy. Otherwise, they basically deserved what they got.

A no knock warrant is no place for a fishing expedition. That is the type of issue one should be expected to quit over. On moral grounds.

If I’m understanding your points, you’re argument is the MSM routinely releases all the video/audio when they do an expose so Giles/Okeefe should do the same? I’m not sure where that argument comes from. The press routinely edits their video to make whatever point they’re trying to make regardless of the reality of the situation. The “layers of fact checkers” are non-existent. If you haven’t learned by now that you cannot trust a word that comes out of their mouths then I don’t know what to tell ya. If I accept your argument that they’ve only released edited video to make someone look bad that still isn’t any different than any of the CBS/NBC/ABC/Cable news programs.

BTW, it was an easy thing to go to:
http://biggovernment.com/author/jokeefe/
to find the unedited videos and transcripts, minus the philly video thanks to the lawsuit.

One last thing, if the Philly sting went down like ACORN says, then why did they fire the guy and how is that Okeefes fault? If the man didn’t do anything wrong, then ACORN was at fault for the firing, not the two kids. These two kids took down a multimillion dollar organization on their own, that’s impressive no matter what you think of ACORN.

It is perverse, however, that these injuries in a “no-knock” raid will almost certainly be used to justify the necessity of the practice.

Yes.

“The soldiers, like the officers in this raid, are fighting an ill-considered, counterproductive war. So do you celebrate when they are hurt.”

I don’t celebrate it, but I also realize that they’re dangerous gangsters and them getting killed or at least rendered physically incapable of gangbanging is probably the most helpful thing they’ll accomplish in the long run.

Logically, I’m forced to side with “the cops and soldiers” and “the types of people cops and soldiers harass, rob, kidnap, assault, torture, and kill”. Given this, and noting that the second category includes some people who have it coming, surely not all of them do, and I’ll side with that disparate group over any particular enterprise or gang that intends to deliberately hurt a disparate group of people that includes innocents.

Now if you ask me what my attitude is toward any given individual or enterprise or gang the cops/soldiers target that does happen to have it coming, well, I feel the same way about them as I do about the cops/soldiers, and I don’t mind so much when one side or the other thins the rivals’ ranks. I got no favorites.

“If so, I have no respect for you…”

‘kay