Al Franken reads the Fourth Amendment to a DOJ official. Good to hear that Al’s a Fourther. His time in the Senate may be of more value than I thought.
Jack Shafer about sums up my thoughts on Andrew Breitbart and the ACORN videos.
Four New Jersey cops shot during 2am no-knock raid on drug suspect’s home. Stay tuned.
What does America’s biggest Nanny eat? A lot of the stuff he’s trying to stop you from eating.
Fire department saves man’s penis.
Nice story about an Indian girl who has become a national hero by refusing to become a child bride in an arranged marriage.
The ABA profiles Institute for Justice co-founder Chip Mellor.
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on Thursday, September 24th, 2009 at 12:15 pm by Radley Balko
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TheAgitator.com
Nice start, Sen Al.
Now, how do you feel about the “seizure” part of the 4th?
I’d like to think someone was capable of getting off four good shots, but I’m betting that most of the cops were hit by other cops.
“It’s not the same world it used to be, people killing each other all the time,” said neighbor Robin Kumar. “Police are here to protect us; why would you do such a thing?”
Poor deluded Robin Kumar.
If it’s not the same world she remembers, it’s because America is a colonized land, the civilian population ruled by an occupying colonial force.
From the NJ cops article…
“It’s not the same world it used to be, people killing each other all the time,” said neighbor Robin Kumar. “Police are here to protect us; why would you do such a thing?”
rubber spoon, rubber spoon, rubber spoon. yes. ok.
Yeah, I’ll bet they shot each other in their bowel emptying panic.
There you go, Cynical, being all constructive and shit while I just stand here with my mouth open in shock.
Were they female firefighters, and did they perform cpr?
I believe that the ACORN employee in question subsequently contacted the authorities, as you’d expect him too. Meanwhile, where’s coverage of Gale Norton’s antics? You’d think if Jack Schafer’s going to laud somebody getting ACORN (who have received $53 million), he’d be more excited about Gale Norton’s alleged corruption in the distribution of billions of dollars. But naaaaaaah. Let’s not be consistent with these things.
Sounds like someone tried to adopt the cops own strategy: Kill everyone else and you can make up any story you want about how things went down.
Uh, consistent? It’s one article. Does every article about ACORN have to be complemented by an article attacking some corrupt figure on the right? Stop being so reflexively partisan.
Shafer is a media critic. There’s no media angle to the Norton story, other than that it is being covered, or you wouldn’t have heard about it. Shafer was commenting about where Breitbart and the amateur video makers fit in to the media landscape.
I believe that the ACORN employee in question subsequently contacted the authorities, as you’d expect him too.
Actually, I’d expect him to not provide any assistance at all to someone claiming to pimp for 13-year-olds.
Meanwhile, where’s coverage of Gale Norton’s antics? You’d think if Jack Schafer’s going to laud somebody getting ACORN (who have received $53 million), he’d be more excited about Gale Norton’s alleged corruption in the distribution of billions of dollars. But naaaaaaah. Let’s not be consistent with these things.
While I agree that there are plenty of bigger fish in the corrupted sea, Shafer’s column wasn’t as much about ACORN as it was about the unusual and independent source of the story and what it says about news organizations in the U.S.. So, you can’t really blame him for not talking about a standard corruption story discovered in standard ways. You might as well blame him for not getting upset about the awful fact that the U.S. still employs Blackwater (Xe).
Let me pull an Al Franken here and preceed my question by saying that I am not a lawyer (IANAL).
Now, having said that IANAL, isn’t video and audio taping people without their consent illegal? Shouldn’t these people that recorded the videos be sued/prosecuted?
Nando,
Some states yes, some states no.
I would feel better about this story if ACORN was a model of spotless integrity and government just woke up to the fact that they have no business financing them, or any similar organization, to begin with.
http://www.katu.com/news/local/60743457.html
Portland OR police chief Rosie Sizer finds cops did no wrongdoing in tackling and crushing James Chasse
What a shocker! I couldn’t have guessed that the police would find that their own didn’t MURDER the guy, joke about it, lie about it, etc. as the video and eye witness testimony shows.
I’ll be impressed with Al Franken once he reads the rest of the Constitution. Preferably to the rest of the Senate whenever they try to pass some more paternalism, budget bills, pork bills, etc.
regarding recording and whether it is illegal: ACORN has sued those who conducted a sting on its Baltimore offices based on Maryland law that requires both parties to consent to any electronic recording. This was used to prosecute Linda Tripp for her recording of Monica Lewinsky. There is a question whether such “two party” laws (found in several other states) are constitutional if used to record public activities where one party consents. See volokh.com on point
Can’t say I’m surprised. Portland, despite its progressive rep, has plenty of thuggish cocksuckers on its police force, along with a surprising number of repressed civilians eager to see their violent fantasies enacted by those cops.
On the story about the Indian girl, I salute her courage.
It takes a hell of a lot of guts to stand up for your rights against “traditional ways” and parental pressure. Even more amazing in a 13 year old.
I hope some of our cultural relativists who say we shouldn’t get involved in protecting the rights of those in other countries read the story.
Radley,
I think you missed a good one.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20090924_Animal-cruelty_charges_dropped_against_Burlington_County_cop.html
For what it is worth, at least one of the ACORN employees played along on the video to keep them talking, giving them terrible legal advice that would get them caught if they followed it, and then contacted the Feds.
Another thought that they were obvious pranksters (not a difficult conclusion to reach given the “Pimp’s” big hat and fake fur jacket) and more or less made fun of them, pretending to be a gangster herself and admitting to murdering an ex-husband who is very much alive.
And the videographers have been caught in a bunch of lies.
I agree with some of Shafer’s points, but the story isn’t as black and white as he presents it.
Oh, and yes, what they did was illegal wiretapping in some states. ACORN filed suit in Maryland yesterday.
From the comments on the Al Franken story;
Thank You Al. Hey Republicans and Democrats – this is what is called defending the Constitution! You know that contract with the people that defines what you and the rest of the Federal government can and can’t do? Yeah that dusty piece of paper you haven’t read since junior high school.
I’m not entirely sure that the ACORN video performance art was intended to stop at just showing ACORN min-wage workers as being morons. There are elements of simple genius on the part of the video creators (and I salute them). I wouldn’t be surprised if rabid public reaction is the intended second act (such as condeming all ACORN actions, charging the “pimp” with illegal wiretapping, and generally acting like a country full of idiots).
“Ali G meets 60 minutes” I agree with. Not sure where the Michael Moore reference comes from.
Yeah, if you can’t tell, I really feel for the guy who played along with people he thought were human traffickers, got lots of information, gave fake information, contacted the feds, and then got fired for his trouble because on the video it looks like he’s helping them and there are lots of people who don’t really care about what really happened beyond what the video appears to show.
I think what he did took a lot of courage as I don’t doubt real human traffickers would kill you for doing something like that. As far as I can tell he’s the only one in this entire situation whose conflict was truly spotless and he got fired.
Sigh.
CONDUCT was truly spotless.
Can’t think today.
Al Franken Article–I don’t think Kris’ point was without merit, about it being the courts job to interpret the language of the fourth amendment, but if they’ve held that these kinds of warrants are consistent with the fourth amendment then what do we need that provision in the patriot act for?
Hmmm…a no knock raid at 2am.
Officer shot in the face, downward trajectory.
I’m no Sherlock Holmes but I bet the target of this raid thought he was being robbed. Got up from his upstairs bedroom and shot at the people (most likely dressed in all black) coming up the stairs.
Debate about whether they announced “POLICE” begins in 3….2….
When a 13 year old takes charge and rebels against tradition and culture in way we like, she’s a bigger than life hero worthy of praise and worldwide admiration. When she takes it upon herself to violate cultural norms in way we disapprove of, she’s a mindless victim with no responsibility for her actions (unless, of course, we’re planning to try her as adult).
Ofcourse David Kris refered Franken to the courts. Why wouldn’t he? They on on the same side. He knows full well that the court grants exceptions to the 4th Amendment all of the time.
Does Hoag Memorial Hospital call the Fire Department when folks’ wedding rings get stuck on their fingers too?
“Kris explained that the courts have held that the law’s requirements that the person be described, though not named, is sufficient to meet the demands of the Constitution.”
The fourth states, “…particularly describing…” As my 3rd-grade daughter is learning, ‘particularly’ is an adverb of ‘particular,’ which would make interpreting the fourth in any other way other than to require naming the PARTICULAR person, wrong.
“Although a bill was introduced in 2005 to ban bestiality, New Jersey still has no explicit ban on the sexual penetration of animals, which is why the Burlington County Prosecutor’s Office charged Melia with animal cruelty.”
Ah, New Jersey! Land in which I was raised. I was not aware there was any freedom left there. Good to see some forms of personal expression are still tolerated!
In more Fourth news, the Virginia Supreme Court ruled that automobile passengers can’t be searched without specific cause.
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/29/2909.asp
I look at the NJ cops story from this perspective, based on the story being true as reported now – those cops didn’t need to get shot, if only they had performed the raid when the suspect was exiting the building or sometime other than the middle of the night with surprise. Yeah, sorry, I can’t see how these raids are good for anybody but adrenaline junkies.
“Mellor’s crusade in public policy law grew out of his experiences at Ohio State University in the early ’70s. ‘I became convinced the law offered a final avenue for social change,’ he says. ‘There was an epiphany that occurred in the midst of protests in the Vietnam War. I saw the left and the right were really after the same end: to capture government power for their best purposes, to make other people do what they wanted them to do.’
I commend the IJ and Mellor for crusading for individual freedom. I also commend him for his honesty that he is out to “capture government power for their best purposes, to make other people do what they wanted them to do.”
However, I must leave it there, for subscribing to the system perpetuates it, regardless of his occasional victories. But in this society, IJ may be the best it can get. Depressing.
What can you say about Costa Mesa? That kind of stuff just doesn’t happen in Santa Ana.
It’s too bad Franken didn’t follow up and ask him whether he agreed with the courts and whether they had it right. Just because the courts say something is Constitutional doesn’t mean the discussion is over, and just because the courts say that the President can get away with something doesn’t make that thing right.
Thom
You know very well that “right” and “wrong” are purely academic exercises and have nothing to do with government.
;)
He called the cops on the two people posing as criminals. What else would you have them do?
Radley,
Look at the comments that came afterwards: what Breitbart’s people did, besides being entrapment (sniffed out and reported by the victim), lead to this man losing his job. What had he done that you vociferously disagree with? Fine, you like coverage of this kind, that’s great. But when the guy who gets fired didn’t deserve it, and when there are much bigger examples of corruption going on routinely, why focus on this one minor thing? Just to praise Breitbart? Have you seen some of the shit that guy is associated with?
I’m no fan of Franken (at least not a political fan) but kudos to Al. Now just remember that there is alot more to the constitution. Protect the other parts also please.
I’m now going to do a happy dance for the 4 cops in New Jersey…those no knock raids just rock out loud don’t they boys…hope you enjoyed the rush….while it lasted.
What is ironic is the comment that Kris makes in response to Franken’s straightforward question.
“this is surreal”
it’s only surreal when someone actually asks an intelligent question and does not give the war on terror a rubber stamp
Radley, i agree that more amateur journalism is a good thing, but there still has to be a standard. For someone who routinely faults the police (which i couldn’t agree with more) for not releasing evidence or slanting things in their favor, those videos are anything but clear. If they released all the unedited videos with transcripts, that might be something, but this was just a hit job. Slate is right, the intended effect was to get them defunded, not to actually prove any wrongdoing.
I look at it like this, i work for a large company, and if i found out 10 of my co-workers were doing something unsavory, i wouldn’t insist the company as a whole be investigated. I would expect those people to be fired. In the case of ACORN, that is exactly what happened. Other than this case, every other allegation has been for voter registration fraud, and as far as i know, they have turned in people for it themselves.
You of all people should expect some standard of reporting that doesn’t involve edited videos and a glaring omission of fact. When out of the four videos, one calls the cops, and the other treats them like the idiots they are, how do you not question the remaining videos? If they were real journalists, they would have released everything at the beginning. It still would not have excused what the other two offices did, but at least you could take it at face value.
I might disagree with Al Franken on most issues, but based on this, as well as the vid of him addressing people about health care, he seems to be taking the job very seriously. Good for him.
As someone else mentioned, I’d like to see more action on the rest of the Constitution.
Sadly, all of the cops are expected to survive.
I think the DOJ’s response was classic.
“What? A Congressman asking whether or not some law enforcement tactic is constitutional? This is surreal!”
Don’t worry, Dep’t of Justice: Sonia Sotomayor has your back.
Thanks for the link KBCraig (#33). I’m glad the court upheld Di Re and Ybarra and rejected the state’s probable-cause-through-process-of-elimination argument.
I was still taken aback by the sentence the first court handed down. From the article:
Holy crap! 22 months for simple possession!?! (BTW, the sentence was actually five years, with the remainder suspended.) I am not familiar with the case, so there could be other circumstances involved, but that seems outrageously harsh for a possession conviction, no conviction on intent to sell (since there was only residue), or anything indicating Whitehead was something other than a user.
Seriously, I have to guess that part of the reason the sentence is so harsh is because Whitehead didn’t agree to a plea unconditionally and insisted on fighting the ruling on whether there was probable cause to search.
Guidonet,
You need to realize these videos come on the heels of years of these types of accusations — that the workers are more interested in gaming the system than helping people — and more serious accusations of embezzlement and other corruption from former board members. If this is the straw the breaks the camel’s back, what’s wrong with that?
Sam,
It’s not entrapment. It doesn’t meet one standard of being entrapment. And why don’t you focus on the other corrumption? Go out and journalize that shit yourself. That article was supposed to be empowering to do something other than throw a bitch fit in a comment section.
Al Franken is as liberal as they come.
Cynical – The quote about “capturing government power” wasn’t about what IJ wants to do, it was a comment about what he saw the left and right trying to do. His quote was fighting that in order to stand up for personal freedom in all cases. I don’t know if you misread or intentionally attempted to spin it, but it’s totally off base in either case.
Why is it we have two ways of dealing with sex in this world? In one country, a 13 year old girl can forced into a sexual relationship within the confines of the law, but in our country consenting sex between teenagers is a crime.
WTF!
re: Al Franken
Holy crap, I hope crow tastes ok with hot sauce. If he’s like this his entire career, I could end up eating a lot of it. :(
1-) I saw ACORN´s budget and I find astonishing that such a small group can cause so much debate. There must be bigger problems in America.
2-) Building a brothel shouldn´t be such a scandal.
Should have mentioned that the Oregonian headline says “Sizer on Chasse: police force acceptable”. They decreed it so after a painstaking investigation, and everyone has been cleared to murder again. Apparently tackling and dog piling a person is acceptable force, as is laughing about it at the police station as shown by their video, and letting a guy die in the back of your squad car.
In all fairness, there were multiple videos and not all of the ACORN folks have been able to prove that they either called the cops* or didn’t take them seriously.
Though again, Giles and O’Keefe really did look like college kids headed to a frathouse Pimp and Ho party, so if one of them were to tell me that they took a “humor the weirdos and get them out of my office” approach, I would be inclined to believe.
CC
*I’m sure the Feds treat this differently. I’m guessing a call to the local police would go something like this:
“Hello, Officer, I’m from ACORN and there were some people in my office talking about starting a potential human trafficking organization.”
“Had they actually done anything illegal?”
“The woman’s a hooker, but as far as I could tell the scheme was theoretical.”
“Did they fill out any paperwork?”
“No.”
“you know, discussing the possibility of opening a whorehouse is not actually a crime.”
“Sorry for wasting your time, sir.”
“No problem, call us back if they give you any proof they’ve done something illegal.”
So it doesn’t surprise me that there are several offices who claim they called the cops but do not have a police report. The Philly office did have a police report, but it focussed on how Giles and O’Keefe made a fuss and refused to leave.
Oddly enough, O’Keefe and Giles have never released the Philly video. My impression is that the purpose of ACORN’s lawsuit is to try to get O’Keefe and Giles to release ALL the videos, not just the edited versions they put on the web.
I think it’s wonderful that Sen. Franken read the 4th amendment to the official as it’s apparent that just about everyone in the government needs to be reminded of its content.
However, the distinguished gentleman needs to be reminded that it was the House and the Senate that drafted the Act, debated the Act, voted to pass the Act, and sent it on to the White House for George the Lessor’s signature.
For those of you who, like #45 JOR, are in a festive mood because of what happened in New Jersey, I have a question. Do you also make glib comments when soldiers are injured or killed in Iraq. The soldiers, like the officers in this raid, are fighting an ill-considered, counterproductive war. So do you celebrate when they are hurt. If so, I have no respect for you, but you have a right to your opinion. If not, please explain the differences.
I am on record as being vehemently opposed to the drug war, and vehemently opposed to paramilitary tactics, especially at 2 AM. This was a terrible mistake. It did not have to happen! I know all this, but more blood and will not make life better in this country. Real human beings, real families are involved in this case. This is not some libertarian strategy session. This is real life. If you believe this will make things better, then your mind is more brutal than the most committed drug warrior.
Talk to you later guys. I’m going to take a day or two to cool off.
Helmut: Members of the U.S. Military cannot quit their jobs. Police officers face no such restrictions.
“Do you also make glib comments when soldiers are injured or killed in Iraq.”
Yes.
“The soldiers, like the officers in this raid, are fighting an ill-considered, counterproductive war. So do you celebrate when they are hurt.”
I don’t celebrate it, but I also realize that they’re dangerous gangsters and them getting killed or at least rendered physically incapable of gangbanging is probably the most helpful thing they’ll accomplish in the long run.
Logically, I’m forced to side with “the cops and soldiers” and “the types of people cops and soldiers harass, rob, kidnap, assault, torture, and kill”. Given this, and noting that the second category includes some people who have it coming, surely not all of them do, and I’ll side with that disparate group over any particular enterprise or gang that intends to deliberately hurt a disparate group of people that includes innocents.
Now if you ask me what my attitude is toward any given individual or enterprise or gang the cops/soldiers target that does happen to have it coming, well, I feel the same way about them as I do about the cops/soldiers, and I don’t mind so much when one side or the other thins the rivals’ ranks. I got no favorites.
“If so, I have no respect for you…”
‘kay
There’s no reason to believe that these cops deserved to get shot. Rooting for the death of a stranger is just plain ghoulish. Assuming that the “illegal weapons” charge amounts to more than missing paperwork, it looks like the police went after the right house.
It is perverse, however, that these injuries in a “no-knock” raid will almost certainly be used to justify the necessity of the practice.
Guido and CC:
If I’m understanding your points, you’re argument is the MSM routinely releases all the video/audio when they do an expose so Giles/Okeefe should do the same? I’m not sure where that argument comes from. The press routinely edits their video to make whatever point they’re trying to make regardless of the reality of the situation. The “layers of fact checkers” are non-existent. If you haven’t learned by now that you cannot trust a word that comes out of their mouths then I don’t know what to tell ya. If I accept your argument that they’ve only released edited video to make someone look bad that still isn’t any different than any of the CBS/NBC/ABC/Cable news programs.
BTW, it was an easy thing to go to:
http://biggovernment.com/author/jokeefe/
to find the unedited videos and transcripts, minus the philly video thanks to the lawsuit.
One last thing, if the Philly sting went down like ACORN says, then why did they fire the guy and how is that Okeefes fault? If the man didn’t do anything wrong, then ACORN was at fault for the firing, not the two kids. These two kids took down a multimillion dollar organization on their own, that’s impressive no matter what you think of ACORN.
There’s no reason to believe that these cops deserved to get shot. Rooting for the death of a stranger is just plain ghoulish. Assuming that the “illegal weapons” charge amounts to more than missing paperwork, it looks like the police went after the right house.
If police put the serial number of the gun that shot them on the application for the search warrant I have some empathy. Otherwise, they basically deserved what they got.
A no knock warrant is no place for a fishing expedition. That is the type of issue one should be expected to quit over. On moral grounds.
Dave W: they obey orders. Obeying those orders keep the paycheck coming and the pension accruing. To ones of their mentality, that is what counts.
I feel bad for the people killed as collateral damage in Afghanistan and Iraq. Wanna feel bad for somebody? Feel bad for them.
These police officers I won’t feel bad for unless and until I see that search warrant application.
To #58 Helmut O’ Hooligan:
Why should I be held to a higher standard than the “glib” cops who laugh and celebrate after they have hurt/maimed/killed someone who might or might not be guilty of anything more than have an address similiar to the one they were trying to go to? Why? I have hurt no one. Directly or indirectly…unlike them.
Sorry…still doing a happy dance and will do so until there is some accountability and some changes made that stop giving former high school bullies with teeny weeny peeny syndrome badges, guns, and approval to terrorize the citizenry at their whim.
I don’t know a single person who is so cold that they don’t feel sorry for someone who suffers needless and unjustified pain, injury, and tragedy, whether it be cops, soldiers, or innocent civilians. But, this website is a witness to the chronic institutionalized imposition of precisely that kind of suffering and tragedy on non-violent, often innocent, citizens by law enforcement who’s only qualifications for membership are a single digit IQ, an ego nurtured in testosterone, an unabashed certainly of their own self-importance, and an absolute lack of regard for the public they “serve and protect”.
I don’t for a minute hold against anyone on this site the animosity or anger they hold toward law enforcement, prosecutors, or courts. I think there’s an infinite difference between someone who wishes misfortune on someone in a moment of anger and someone who systematically imposes misfortune on someone as a career choice.
If cops getting shot in NJ moves us closer to ending no-knock raids, then that is a price I’m willing to pay.
God knows we’ve seen what the state views as acceptable collateral damage.
Don’t delude yourself Boyd Durkin. When the no knock raids become too routinely dangerous and not just the adrenaline rush and chance to wave their guns that they are now they’ll just take off and nuke the site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
ktc2 “Don’t delude yourself Boyd Durkin. When the no knock raids become too routinely dangerous and not just the adrenaline rush and chance to wave their guns that they are now they’ll just take off and nuke the site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”
you forgot to add “After all, it’s for the kids.”
If all the facts surrounding each no-knock raid were put before a panel of twelve randomly-chosen people who were asked the question: “Do you think that the raid was carried out in a reasonable fashion so as to minimize risk and harm to persons and property”, for what fraction of no-knock raids do you think the panel would answer “yes”?
Unreasonable searches and seizures are illegitimate. The Supreme Law of the Land says so quite plainly.
A government agent who conducts an illegitimate no-knock is a robber. Such a person fully deserves any harm that may befall him.
Without knowing about the particular case at issue, I can’t be sure that the government agents deserved what they got, but since the vast majority of no-knocks are conducted unreasonably, it would seem a fair guess.
Ok. Now that I have had a chance to clear my head, let me address some of the responses to my comments last night (#58).
JOR did not disappoint me. I suspected that he was a moral degenerate, and his attempt (#60) to justify his earlier comment (#45) proved it. Post-modern moral equivalence b.s. at its most annoying! They’re all gangsters, blah, blah, blah. Gotta side with somebody, yadda, yadda, yadda. Are your really that intellectually lazy? The policies that lead to no-knock raids and illegal wars must be overturned. The architects of such policies must be held accountable. Rooting for gang members or religous extremists, on the other hand, solves nothing. It just proves you are an immoral simpleton. This is not a damn football game, this is real life.
As bad as things are, the public can still influence the police department. If departments and government agencies don’t listen, then there is always YouTube. I am a big supporter of “little brother.” In some communities, this public influence is obvious, because shit like this doesn’t happen (I’m thinking specifically of some college towns I’ve examined, where the police are held on a tight leash by citizens and city councils alike). But what influence do we have over actual gangsters, JOR. The people DO NOT have mechanisms in place to regulate their behavior. As Orwell grudgingly pointed out (paraphrasing), “if I must deal with a bully, I’d rather deal with a policeman than a gangster.”
We don’t know exactly what brought this raid about. But I don’t think it was a b.s. raid. Federal agencies generally don’t get involved in petty drug or gun cases. Hopefully more will come out soon, but keep in mind that not everyone involved in these raids is a Mayor Calvo or Kathryn Johnson type. That doesn’t justify the drug war, and it damn sure doesn’t justify these reckless tactics. But I rather doubt this is a case of a completely innocent homeowner standing his ground.
Zappa Crappa: “Why should I be held to a higher standard than the ‘glib’ cops who laugh and celebrate after they have hurt/maimed/killed someone who might or might not be guilty of anything more than have an address similiar to the one they were trying to go to? Why? I have hurt no one. Directly or indirectly…unlike them.”
Do you know any of the officers that were shot in NJ? Do you know for a fact that any of thes officers have ever in their careers acted in this fashion. If not, that would be a strawman argument, and a very poor excuse for you to do the “happy dance.” Puke.
Dave Krueger: “…But, this website is a witness to the chronic institutionalized imposition of precisely that kind of suffering and tragedy on non-violent, often innocent, citizens by law enforcement who’s only qualifications for membership are a single digit IQ, an ego nurtured in testosterone, an unabashed certainly of their own self-importance, and an absolute lack of regard for the public they ’serve and protect’.”
Dave, I am a regular on the Agitator. I know all this. My problem with some of these comments is that they involve overgeneralization and gleeful cruelty. Thus, I have the same question for you as Zappa Crappa. Unless you guys know for sure that these officers in NJ were involved in all sorts of illegal and immoral acts, then you are punishing people for the faults of others in their occupation. All I know about this case is that this was poor strategy that resulted in multiple injuries.
You and Zappacrappa also made light of the qualifications of LEO’s. I share your concern about the jock, bully behavior covered on this sight. But comments about IQ miss the point (Is IQ really an accurate measure of intellect anyway?). More officers today have bachelor’s degrees, or at least associates degrees. Many command level officers seek advanced degrees. I would like to see some college level education mandated, personally, but that will not solve the problem. You are above “cops are stupid” rhetoric, Dave. Please don’t add to the confusion.
People have to stand up and end the delusion that there will ever be a “drug free America.” This is what it will take to make us more safe and more free in this country. Shootouts with law enforcement will not lead to more freedom for anyone.
“Do you know any of the officers that were shot in NJ? Do you know for a fact that any of thes officers have ever in their careers acted in this fashion. If not, that would be a strawman argument, and a very poor excuse for you to do the “happy dance.” Puke”
Maybe…still doing a happy dance though. If I had been alive back in the day, I would have rooted for Bonnie and Clyde and Dillinger : ) The fact that they are cops participating in an unconstitutional no knock raid is enough reason for me to do a happy dance. Want to tread all over the constitution? Then I will feel no pity when it comes back and bites you in the ass…I make no apologies for my lack of sympathy. I reserve it for those I feel deserve it.
“Thus, I have the same question for you as Zappa Crappa. Unless you guys know for sure that these officers in NJ were involved in all sorts of illegal and immoral acts, then you are punishing people for the faults of others in their occupation.”
Uhhhm…I’m not sure how your logic works but I am punishing no one. I just don’t have a lot of respect ( I used to…back in my days of ignorance). But on that same line, I DO hold the good ones accountable for the faults of others in their occupation because THEY allow them to continue by their code of silence and lting to cover each other’s asses. In my book, that makes them just as guilty and in some ways, maybe even more so.
Until things change, I will continue to do happy dances when cops get a dose of what they dish out on a regular basis…they are big boys, I’m sure they can handle the disdain and lack of sympathy of yet another civilian nobody.
“Until things change, I will continue to do happy dances when cops get a dose of what they dish out on a regular basis…they are big boys, I’m sure they can handle the disdain and lack of sympathy of yet another civilian nobody.”
The problem is, most police officers never shoot anyone during their careers. Many draw their service weapons only occasionally. Most spend more time doing interviews, completing reports, and engaging in service-oriented tasks (motorist assists, traffic direction, first aid on EMS calls) than they ever will on pursuits, riot control or fighting with citizens .
In addition, most officers are not SWAT/Narcotic officers who involve themselves in actions such as these. And as I pointed out, these events don’t occur everywhere. Some tactical units are used only in emergencies and not for regular warrant service. Law enforcement is very fragmented in the U.S., and for good reason. Thus, there can be rather striking regional and local differences.
Part of the reason I’m urging you guys not to act in this manner is that this is my field (sort of). I was a criminal justic major. I work in a related public safety field. I understand the system as an insider, and as a dissenter. I continue to believe that without the baggage of the drug war, American policing could take a different form that would be much more compatible for a free society. I understand that tactics such as no-knock raids are bound to result in deaths for ALL involved. I’m just saying, lets advocate for an end to the maddness without giving into blood lust.
I’ve discovered a positive quality of government.
Since government attracts the kind of person who craves power and is dangerous to society, it acts as a magnet, pulling those people from society and publicly identifying them.
Thus, private citizens have the opportunity to know exactly who certain dangerous people in society are and, while disadvantaged because of the official power vested in those individuals, can at least take some preparatory steps to defend against said dangerous people or at least know them when they see them.
Just think how dangerous the world would be without government, where no one would know who was dangerous until they acted. A government official has tipped his/her hand.
That raid story is some fantastic journalism. He “sprayed bullets” from a .357 Magnum? (That would be a revolver that holds, at most, six bullets.) And two officers were wearing “specially reinforced bulletproof vests”? I wonder if those are upgrades from their regular bullet-RESISTANT vests.
“(Is IQ really an accurate measure of intellect anyway?). More officers today have bachelor’s degrees, or at least associates degrees.”
Are degrees really an accurate measure of intellect anyway? Perseverance maybe. (But hey, at least everyone’s goin to college, wooo!)
“I’m just saying, lets advocate for an end to the maddness without giving into blood lust.”
I’m missing how “i’m glad they got hurt after putting themselves in danger” equals “blood lust”. Someone better let the darwin awards guys know that theyre incredibly insensitive and immoral for fueling their readers’ “blood lust.”
If youre a cop, and you have ANY concern for your own safety, you would not participate in this sort of activity. You’d follow the guy to the quickiemart and grab him out in the open, preferably during daylight so you can actually see the suspect well.
Or you quit and find a line of work that wont get you killed. Sure, you wont get that pension, but i think your family would rather have you than your pension any day. And you’d be surprised at the thrill you can get being a wal-mart greeter.
(((If I’m understanding your points, you’re argument is the MSM routinely releases all the video/audio when they do an expose so Giles/Okeefe should do the same?)))
If they are going to claim on national TV that they were never thrown out of an ACORN office and never caused a disturbance while being thrown out, which they have done, and the Philly office has a police report to the contrary, then yeah, I’d like to see their video of what really happened.
Other than seeing who is lying about Philadelphia, I don’t care all that much, although it would be interesting to see whether they have videotape of their visits to Chicago, Miami, LA and two other cities where ACORN claims to have records of them stopping by and being kicked out.
I’ve got mild interest, though of course, the people who really want those tapes released are the folks at ACORN. Again, my guess is the real reason behind their lawsuit is to get the entire set of tapes as part of discovery.
((((I’m not sure where that argument comes from.)))
Then we’re even. I’m not sure where yours is coming from.
((( The press routinely edits their video to make whatever point they’re trying to make regardless of the reality of the situation. The “layers of fact checkers” are non-existent. If you haven’t learned by now that you cannot trust a word that comes out of their mouths then I don’t know what to tell ya.)))
I judge things on an individual basis and try to look at a lot of sources. I’d say blanket disbelief is as irrational as blanket belief.
((( If I accept your argument that they’ve only released edited video to make someone look bad that still isn’t any different than any of the CBS/NBC/ABC/Cable news programs.)))
If CBS/NBC/ABC/Cable news makes claims that something didn’t happen that they would logically have on tape if it had, and a police report strongly suggests that it did happen, and the network refuses to release the tape, then you’re correct. Otherwise, I’m again not sure where you’re coming from.
((((BTW, it was an easy thing to go to:
http://biggovernment.com/author/jokeefe/
to find the unedited videos and transcripts, minus the philly video thanks to the lawsuit.))))
That’s very strange. Because they aren’t getting sued in Pennsylvania, they are getting sued in Maryland and the Maryland tape is still up as of right now.
So what you’re saying there doesn’t make a lot of sense. As far as I know, the Philly tape has NEVER been on biggovernment.com, though Giles and O’Keefe have not denied that it exists.
((((One last thing, if the Philly sting went down like ACORN says, then why did they fire the guy and how is that Okeefes fault?)))
Nobody in Philly got fired. As far as I know, there’s no tape of the Philly folks doing anything that even looks wrong. Stands to reason that if there was, they would have released it. The man who got fired was in San Diego.
((( If the man didn’t do anything wrong, then ACORN was at fault for the firing, not the two kids. )))
If you don’t know that “didn’t do anything morally wrong” and “didn’t do anything that could get your ass fired” are different things, then I don’t know what to tell ya. By playing along with those kids and getting lots of information by pretending to be a thug himself, he made his employer look really bad even though morally he was doing the right thing.
(((These two kids took down a multimillion dollar organization on their own, that’s impressive no matter what you think of ACORN.)))
I’m not sure what you mean by “took down.” A very small percentage of ACORN’s funding was federal and my impression is that they aren’t going anywhere.
I’m also not sure what you mean by “on their own.” At this point O’Keefe and Giles have admitted that they had a help and coaching from various conservative bloggers and the like.
So yeah, it doesn’t seem so impressive. It just seems like Micheal Moore’s bullshit, except coming from the other side. I feel like one Micheal Moore is enough for the world.
CC
#72 | Helmut O’ Hooligan |
I’m glad I didn’t disappoint you; it is always good to be of service. I don’t really have anything more to add, though I do think it’s important to clarify an important point about terminology and intellectual honesty:
“Post-modern moral equivalence b.s. at its most annoying!”
I’m going to be nice and just gently point out that you don’t seem to grasp that “post-modern moral equivalence” is, if you’re using (as I suspect) the silly epithet “post-modern” to indicate something like moral antirealism or relativism, an oxymoron. Now granted, usually “moral equivalence” is a just fudgy snarl word people employ when they don’t like the conclusion of an argument, so it could just be tacked on to “post-modern” or “relativist” or what have you purely as an intinsifier, I guess, without rendering the sentence meaningless. But to the extent that it actually means anything, it means “judging the actions of different agents by the same standard”. So either I’m practicing moral equivalence (i.e. objective moral reasoning) or I’m being post-modern. And I don’t see how you can claim with a straight face that I’m being post-modern (anymore than Augustine was when he said that a kingdom, absent justice, is merely a great robbery, with the implication that unjust kings and their men-at-arms deserve whatever robbers deserve).