TheAgitator.com
On “Respecting the Office”
Friday, September 18th, 2009Yesterday’s post on insulting politicians reminds me of a conversation I had a couple years ago shortly after I testified before Congress on the online gambling issue.
I can’t remember if it was a Capitol Hill staffer or a former staffer who was then working for the Poker Players Alliance, but a guy came up afterward and complimented me on my testimony. He said he’d never heard someone be so direct with Congress while giving testimony. I responded that I’d never really bought into the sanctimony of Congress—the idea that congressmen by default deserve reverence because they hold a political office.
That apparently went too far. The guy was offended, even though he was on my side on the poker issue. He said something to the effect of, “But you have to respect the office and the institution.”
I don’t see why. Members of Congress sure as hell don’t respect the office or the institution. They regularly pass laws that aren’t authorized by the Constitution. And that’s just the stuff they do proudly. Never mind the corruption, exempting themselves from the laws they pass, pork spending, and . . . the list goes on.
I don’t agree with Sen. Jim Webb on much when it comes to economic policy. But the guy became a hero in my book when he refused to shake then-President George W. Bush’s hand at a White House ceremony a few years ago. Bush had sent Webb’s son off to fight in what Webb thought was a feeble excuse for a war. If anything, a politician who uses his power to achieve ignoble ends ought to be held in higher contempt than the rest of us. He certainly isn’t entitled to genuflection simply by virtue of his position.
I was talking about all of this a couple of weeks ago with some D.C. folks. What would happen if someone came to testify before Congress, and just ripped into the members present with a richly-deserved, profanity-laced tirade? There is such thing as “contempt of Congress,” but as far as I know it concerns not showing up for testimony, not insulting an individual congressman, or not showing the appropriate deference to political power.
I’m sure our ranter would be subject to thorough tongue-lashings by David Brooks, David Broder, David Gergen and the phalanx of Washington’s other crusty guardians of decorum not named David. But could you be arrested? Just wondering.
I volunteer
Congress? Fuck those morons.
The Dude volunteers
It seems to me that being a politician is already demeaning – to verbally insult one, would be an attempt at improving on nature…
every politician should hear a constituent’s very vocal “Fuck You” or similar epithet daily (multiple times a day is preferable). only then will our republic truly be a free society.
Given that Congressmorons spend their days thinking up new ways to steal money from citizens on pain of death or imprisonment; I am surprised that they are not greeted with a chorus of “F*** You”s whenever they appear anywhere. The idea that a group of people who are conspiring to rob me at gunpoint (via taxes or regulation) are entitled to my respect is absolutely ludicrous.
Right on, Mr. Balko
“The office” deserves even more scorn than the politicians.
The politicians are mere men. Perhaps they’ve got a sociopathic streak in them, but when the chips are down, they’re mere men responding to incentives just like the rest of us.
It’s the office that makes it all possible, by first granting unbelievable power, and then by perverting the incentives that most of the rest of us are accustomed to.
I disagree that profanity-laced discourse is powerful (at least in the right way), and I am constantly working on my own foul mouth for that reason. I much prefer George Galloway’s eloquent way of tongue-lashing Congress.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrdFFCnYtbk
From the wikipedia page on Contempt of Congress:
“In 1821, the Supreme Court issued its decision in Anderson v. Dunn,[1] which held that Congress’ power to hold someone in contempt was essential to ensure that Congress was “… not exposed to every indignity and interruption that rudeness, caprice, or even conspiracy, may mediate against it.”
If they did try to bring a contempt of congress charge against you, then, it sounds like you are guilty if you were rude, capricious, or conspired to be rude?
“But could you be arrested?”
I don’t think that’s the question to ask. You of all people should know that you can get arrested for anything these days. The real question is, “after they arrested you, would any of the bogus charges stick?” or maybe, “would the media actually give a damn or not” (the answer to which may profoundly affect the answer to the first question.)
The thing that bugs me so much about this “respect the institution” argument is that it is a relatively recent invention, yet it’s treated as if Congress has always been some above-the-fray embodiment of civility and decorum.
Just go back and look at U.S. congressional history well into the 20th century and you can see just how big a falsehood this is. There used to be fistfights between members on a fairly routine basis, and I’m not talking about the Hamilton-Burr duel or the caning of Charles Sumner.
Just a few examples:
Feb. 6, 1858 – More than 50 members of the House of Representatives brawl on the floor during a heated debate. The fight only ends when one member knocks the toupee off another’s head and declares “I’ve scalped him!” to much laughter.
Feb. 22, 1902 – Sens. Ben Tillman and John McLaurin – both of South Carolina – get into a fistfight with each other on the Senate floor.
Jun. 30, 1902 – Sen. Joe Bailey of Texas grabs Sen. Albert Beveridge of Indiana in a neck hold and punches him.
Jun. 1949 – Rep. Eugene Cox of Georgia punches Adolph J. Sabath of Illinois
If it were up to me, any member of congress who demonstrates disrespect for the office or institution by voting for a bill that violates the constitution and/or oath of office would be removed from office, with sponsors permanently barred from holding any office of public trust requiring an oath promising to uphold or protect the constitution.
On this subject I must refer to Moroney’s address to the court.
My client would like to read from a prepared statement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei2WhctlRHY&feature=related
Sanctimony is another way of saying arrogance. I don’t buy into the arrogance of the office either.
Only the arrogant expect or demand reverance simply because of their job. But the very idea that you have to earn something, let alone respect, is a very foreign concept to anyone who seeks public office.
What would happen if someone came to testify before Congress, and just ripped into the members present with a richly-deserved, profanity-laced tirade?
Check out Harry Alford ripping the hell out of Barbara Boxer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE_jGD5nZ6U
Mr. Balko,
One minor point. I would argue that Congress has plenty of sanctimony. What they are lacking is grounds for sanctity.
Great blog. Keep up the great work.
I don’t have any problem with using swear words and obscenities towards… well anyone. However, I would warn people that it is rarely a good debate tactic and often ends up being counterproductive. It is more effective to make your case with eloquence and logic than to just spout off a bunch of expletives (even if the latter feels more satisfying). That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be direct but resorting to name calling tends to undermine your own credibility.
Think about everyone’s favorite topic on here; the war on drugs. Do you think people who are skeptical of ending prohibition are more likely to respond to logical, fact based arguments or to “stay the fuck off my herb and off my property you little shit boys”?
PW,
Interesting trivia: That 50+ man brawl actually started with Rep. Laurence M. Keitt (SC) – earlier having gained infamy for holding off would-be helpers from assisting the unconscious Charles Sumner after Brooks’ beating – trying to choke a black northern Rep for telling Keitt in heated debate, “No negro-driver shall crack his whip over me.”
InMD,
Depends. Am I controlling firepower equal or greater than that which the pigs are pointing at me?
Something I believe is that respect is earned, not given. Few on the Hill have earned it.
I agree with InMD though. Going off on a curse ladden tirade would make you look more childish. Instead be creative. What would be more memorable? Calling a politician an SoB or saying Son of a Motherless Goat Herder? Or something else less common. Or considering the politician I’m sure you could make points about them personally. Imagine being grilled on taxes by Rangel and the fun you could have with that.
I don’t think that yelling curses would be that effective, the people on the hill with smaller morals than a vulture spying road kill wouldn’t be amused. Insults however would be amusing, at least to me they would be. Still think it would get you arrested. I mean us underlings/citizens are supposes to respect them like their our lords. At least that’s how they act.
I don’t curse often anymore, but I would volunteer to go to the Hill and tell these contemptible c***suckers exactly what I think of them.
And yeah, f*** respect for the office. They’re called public servants, not kings.
And the last time I checked, employers don’t bow, scrap, and kiss the wide behinds of their employees.
“I wouldn;t dignify you with my urine.” —
Rep. Pete Stark to a constituent, a few days ago.
Fuck this fucking scum.
The idea of respecting “the office” is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard. In effect its an attempt to tell people that, no matter how big of a PoS the person in the office is, you have to show them respect. For “the offices” sake, of course. You know there are some pretty terrible people in that position when you have to resort to demanding respect for the office instead of the person holding it.
Someone also made the comment that their not kings, and your right. Unfortunately they act like they are, and probably sincerely believe they are.
A profanity-laced tirade may not win the day rhetorically, but my earlier offer remains open.
@Waste & @Hannah
A suggestion to these “Worthies” that they comprise an excellent argument in favor of birth control / sterilization / celibacy, would be creative…
(Although not original…)
You think Webb was a hero because he acted like a jerk? You know, you can be polite with people who disagree with you without sucking up to them. If I’m watching you testify before Congress and I disagree with your position, if you lay out your arguments on an issue calmly and politely I might listen to them. You can even (calmly) call people on their hypocrisies or muddled thinking as part of the argument. You just shouldn’t be deliberately disruptive, foul-mouthed, or rude without substantial provocation. Otherwise I (and most people) will just ignore you.
Here, Bush thought there was a good reason to go to war (unless you are one of those Halliburton-profits conspiracy morons). Webb didn’t think there was a good reason. That doesn’t mean Webb gets to act like a dick whenever he meets someone who disagrees with him. IIRC, Bush put his hand out to shake and asked how Webb’s son was – he didn’t say “Now shake my hand to signal your total and unwavering support for the war.” It was a completely normal greeting and polite inquiry. The correct response, if Webb doesn’t like and didn’t want to talk to Bush, is to shake Bush’s hand and say “He’s fine, thanks,” and move on. Instead, Webb took the opportunity to show off his “Scotch-Irish” bona fides and behave like a jerk. A person, let a alone a Senator, should behave better than that.
I don’t like Obama. I didn’t like Clinton. I think they are both dishonest and corrupt. But if I met them, I would be polite, but cool) to both of them, even though I think both of them should be in jail.
I don’t think it requires being a dick to hold people accountable. The stuff that makes people think you’re a jerk in washington, asking tough questions, following up on important topics of actual substance, not letting things that are actually important go in the name of comity or progress, aren’t actually jerk moves. That’s a problem with the culture in washington, that to them civility often means not applying their critical faculties. That’s a problem, and efforts to combat it should be applauded.
Going in front of congress and dropping a bunch of f-bombs is kind of a kindergarten-ish way to make your point, no?
Symbols can communicate powerful meaning, but in the end they’re just symbols, and they don’t change anything, even though our culture is absolutely fixated on them.
And none of this excuses actual acts of douchebaggery motivated by racism and xenophobia.
Tarkin, Bush was putting Webb’s son in the line of fire. The disagreement was a matter of life and death for Webb. It’s not like they had a disagreement over who was better, Redskins or Cowboys. If Bush is trying to kill your son then I would expect you to tell him to fuck himself too.
I feel contempt for just about every sitting congressperson and senator. I guess that’s a crime.
Radley… Hello?!? Disorderly Conduct? Remember that catch-all, always lurking in the background.
Yeah, I’m going to have to go with quoting (the original) Transformers: The Movie here.
“I have nothing but contempt for this court!”
@30: Yes, it’s a federal crime. Punishable by up to a year in prison. Historically it seems to have been used mostly during bickering between the legislative and executive branches, as opposed to punishing average joes who somehow get invited to Congress and then go off on a rant.
My guess is that you would get away with it, despite the possibility of a contempt charge. The Congresscritters have much better access to the media, and can easily spin it to make you look boorish and them dignified and patient. However, if someone warned you about being charged with contempt, and you went ahead anyway, they might call you on it.
There’s always James Spader vs. The Supreme Court
http://www.videosift.com/video/Boston-Legal-takes-on-the-Supreme-Court
Sheriff in Kalona, Iowa is pulling people over on US-218 and coercing them into vacationing there:
http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/59690142.html
Radley, How did you feel about Cheney’s “Go Fuck Yourself” to Patrick Leahy? I thought at the time, and still do, that it was extremely eloquent and right on target.
One other thing – Z – Webb’s son is a soldier as was I. He put on the uniform and swore an oath. He went where he was ordered and performed as a soldier should. Webb was way out of line on this.
great post….
reminds me of what the curmudge always says…..we get the government we deserve!
if we do not have the guts to address congressmen directly……we get the congressmen we deserve.
I started to disagree but upon reflection decided that one should only provide the same level of respect to the position and office as the majority of those holding it….The overwhelming large majority of Americans when polled have little respect for the Congress because THEY have shown little respect for the role. One can’t complain too loudly if one does unto you what you have already done unto yourself…
I watched the video. In what way were you disrespectful? I didn’t see it.
You thanked Paul and Frank (yes, those are last names) and were very courteous.
I can’t see how anyone would have a problem with how you addressed them.
So John, you thought Webb was “way out of line” refuse to shake the president’s hand, but Cheney was “right on target” in telling Leahy to “go fuck yourself”?
I think maybe your position is influenced more by partisanship than decorum.
Radley
I think his point was that it’s an all volunteer army. I wonder what Webb thinks of Jack Murtha?
I don’t remember the exact encounter between Cheney and Edwards re Cheney’s daughter’s status as a lesbian but I don’t think that he knocked him on his ass.
I like the part of the movie “The Aviator” where “Hughes” takes on the Senate. I would consider that my ideal take on how to handle politicians-although I haven’t seen the original testimony.
I have nothing but immense contempt for the office, anyway.
Fuck the office, and anyone who holds it.
I’ll respect any congressman who proposes a bill to:
1) Evacuate the building
2) Burn it down
3) Promise never to return
Burn it down? No way, it’s a very pretty building. It could be a very nice ice skating rink or something.
The “respect the office” line is complete bullshit.
On the other hand, I think there’s a time and place for everything. I’m courteous enough to let any particular president or congressperson have their allotted speech time without harassment. Blurting out “You Lie!” under the situation Obama was speaking is the mark of an impulsive asshole. It isn’t a matter of respecting the office, but being a reasonable human being.
The idea that being direct when testifying to Congress is offensive, however, has me baffled. Your testimony is being sought. Unless you dropping F bombs or something similarly out of place, how does respecting the office even come up as an issue?
Refusing to shake someone’s hand isn’t a big fucking deal. That sort of behavior is usually hyped by folks who have an interest in demonizing one side or another. My response to that kind of transgression is: “Who gives a fuck?”
Burn it down? No way, it’s a very pretty building. It could be a very nice ice skating rink or something.
Fine. As long as they bequeath the $500,000,000 monument to itself to a hippy-collective of graffiti artists and marijuana growers.
I have on several occasions been “guilty” of “contempt of cop.” I would consider it a badge of honor to be found guilty of “contempt of Congress.”
Short version: Williams is willin’.
I respect the constitution and the founding fathers but screw the office and the government. The sooner it falls the happier the world will be.
“Politics is the attempt to achieve power and prestige without merit.” —P J O’Rourke
Re Jim Webb
I am formerly “neo-conned”, a Republican precinct chair, ardently pro-life and I ADMIRE Jim Webb more than I can express. By the time he refused to shake Bush’s hand, I was wised up on the war and many other issues (for which Radley Balko deserves substantial credit). I was doubly proud of Webb for dissing Bush.
I’m a Texan. My father was an oil man in Midland. He tried to tell me for years what an idiot Bush is. Fellow lawyers in Texas have told me of Bush’s idiocy amply demonstrated during meetings they attended when he was governor.(he had to read from index cards or he was lost) I’m a slow learner. I, to my eternal shame, voted twice for him. Now, I would not only refuse to shake his hand, I also would give Aggie horse laugh to his weasel face.
I gave money to Jim Webb during his Senatorial race. If I ever decide to run for office (as a Ron Paul Republican), it will probably come back to bite me in the butt. I don’t care. Jim Webb, however misguided on economic and life issues (in my opinion), is a real MAN and a true Patriot. (I’d also marry him if he weren’t already taken)
I’m with Jerri Lynn on Webb and Bush. Now, given that Webb has voted to saddle my children and me with mountains of debt to go with the mountains of debt that Bush and his fellow Republicrats dumped on us, I don’t have much time for his left-wing economics.
However, I am tired of the kowtowing and cringing that we are supposed to engage in when we meet someone from Congress. In a previous job I had 20 years ago, I dealt with members of Congress from Al Gore to Jim Sasser to Gov. Boss Hogg (Ned Ray McWherter), and Rep. Marilyn Lloyd. To a person, all of them were vain, mediocre, and incredibly stupid, dull, and vapid. Yet, when they were at forums I attended, we were supposed to bow down before them as thought they were the most special people on earth.
Look, Al Gore was nothing but a fat, scripted politician. Unfortunately, these fat, scripted politicians have destroyed much of our economy and apparently want to take the rest of it down around our ears. No, I don’t have any respect for these tax feeders. I might not rip them at a hearing with a profanity-laced diatribe, but I would not speak to them with deference, either.
“Now, given that Webb has voted to saddle my children and me with mountains of debt to go with the mountains of debt that Bush and his fellow Republicrats dumped on us, I don’t have much time for his left-wing economics.”
Bill, you are completely right about this. The unfortunate side of Jim Webb is that he has either worked directly for the government, or in some government-animated job, for all of his adult life. This has ruined him on economics. Of course, had he married me, he might have been educated correctly. LOL!
From a meeting notice from my homeowner’s association:
“The purpose of the meeting will be to have an open discussion with the Board. The Board will address questions that are asked in a professional manner. If anyone is deemed to be disruptive during the meeting, they will be asked to leave. The Board will exercise their right to call the police if they are needed. Please be respectful of not only the volunteer Board but to all fellow neighbors.”
That they went out of their way to mention the threat of police intervention is not a good sign.
I’m a big believer in treating someone with respect until they give you a reason not too. Webb and Rep. Wilson were both out of line. It doesn’t matter if I happen to believe Wilson was right in his assessment of the presidents statements, there’s a time and a place and it isn’t screaming out in the middle of the presidents speech.
Jim Webbs son enlisted in the marines well after september 11. He came from a military family. He knew wtf he was getting himself into, if he didn’t want to go to war he would have joined the peace corp. His dad was out of line and disrespected both the president AND his son. BTW, years later Webb ended up making up with the president.
Finally, I’m also a big believer in “respect for the office”, but respect is a two way street. I don’t think the general public has much respect for their congressional officers because a lot of those officers have zero respect for the office they’re holding. Same as putting on a uniform. If you don’t understand the values that uniform is supposed to represent, then you shouldn’t have it on.
If I may be so bold to be off topic and sexist, another attractive, female libertarian.
Fuck them all, except Ron Paul.
Give ‘em hell, Radley
Jim Webbs son enlisted in the marines well after september 11. He came from a military family. He knew wtf he was getting himself into, if he didn’t want to go to war he would have joined the peace corp. His dad was out of line and disrespected both the president AND his son. BTW, years later Webb ended up making up with the president.
I agree that Webb’s son knew what he was getting into, or at least should have known that the military has been used primarily for political purposes for the majority of its history. I don’t think Webb disrespected his son, but as for Bush, how much respect does a President deserve after he’s instigated a war under false pretenses and wiretapped citizens without warrants? I don’t know what Bush ever really earned in his life, but I’m sure it’s not respect.
Saying we owe respect to the office is saying we should defer to power. It’s an attempt to smuggle the idea of a superior ruling class into an allegedly free society.
Radley, I think the reason the staffer was surprised is that in almost all circumstances, people testifying before the Congress have some asset they don’t want the Congress to take away, or are hoping to convince the Congress to take someone else’s asset away and give it to them.
That leads them to act like courtiers – bowing, scraping, flattering.
You believed [falsely] that your testimony was your opportunity to present a reasoned and forceful argument about the rights of citizens. It was nothing of the kind. It was your chance to kiss some ass. The professional lobbyists understand this better than you, so your conduct stuck out and was notable.
You are so right, and your views are in line with the actuality of how the institution was regarded during the early years of the Republic. Congressman were no more than the peers of the voters (admittedly, a narrow group) but were certainly not exalted; and consider how Jefferson lived in a boarding house and ate with the other tenants while the White House was being built.
And on the Webb question:
Every last event at the White House at which a camera is present is a symbolic exercise. The images depicting the demeanor of those present, their physical position, the actions they take, whether or not exact protocol is demanded, etc., all are consciously and deliberately designed to convey content. When members of Congress are present, part of that content is “Look at the happy family of American government, where everyone gets along.”
Webb’s action was a symbolic political event. There was almost nothing personal about it at all. If all Webb wanted to do was tell Bush he was a dick, he could have used email. Webb was withholding his hand in order to disrupt the staged imagery of the event. And it was completely effective at communicating what Webb wanted to communicate, since everyone noted what Webb did and wrote and spoke about it.
Personally, I think anything that disrupts the web of protocol built around the office of the Presidency is good. Refer to the “But For Ceremony” soliloquy in Henry V for more detail on why this is so. The President gets to act like a king in part because we treat him like a king. Treat him like some asshole blocking traffic, instead, and it changes things.
What Fluffy said. (I love saying that!)
btw Fluffy, I love the name of your blog (Fluffy Unbound) like you been holding back or something ….hahaha!
For more about Congress considering itself exempt from the law: congressional insider trading.
People volunteer to be soldiers because they think defending the country is very important. They don’t sign up for risk and misery so that politicians can get into wars for fun, money, or religious hallucinations.
Radley – Nope, not partisanship on this one although I can go there on occasion. I admire Webb for just about everything he’s done; I’ve read all his books and I admire his intellect. His party switch, dumping the party he’d served, and vice versa, for many years surprised me but I understand his reasons. In my opinion, Sadaam had to be taken out for various reasons – we were still enforcing, badly, a no-fly zone with no end in site and Usay and Quday were in the wings waiting to take over. We can argue over that issue forever. What Webb should have done was taken the hand and said something to express his displeasure. Webb came into office after Congress had approved the invasion. Webb should have shown as little respect to his fellow members of Congress who voted for the war as he did to Bush. This wasn’t just Bush’s war.
As far as Cheney and Leahy; Leahy had accused Cheney of war-profiteering then tried to gloss over it when Cheney came to the Senate. I expect that if charges such as that were leveled your way your response would have been similar.
In my opinion, Sadaam had to be taken out for various reasons – we were still enforcing, badly, a no-fly zone with no end in site and Usay and Quday were in the wings waiting to take over. We can argue over that issue forever.
It certainly is arguable whether or not Sadaam had to be taken out (though, not really, from a libertarian perspective). But what can’t be argued is that the administration sold the war under false pretenses. What can’t be argued is that Bush lied when he said he was trying to avoid war at the beginning of 2003. These facts are well documented. And I don’t know of any military experts who would describe the President’s actions as “Commander in Chief” as “competent.”
Webb should have shown as little respect to his fellow members of Congress who voted for the war as he did to Bush. This wasn’t just Bush’s war.
The members of Congress who voted for the war might have been stupid and gullible, but there’s no evidence they were as blatantly dishonest as the Bush administration.
And Fluffy in #63 above is spot on.
[...] wholeheartedly agree with Radley Balko: He said something to the effect of, “But you have to respect the office and the [...]
[...] start respecting the office when those who hold it start respecting it and the constitution. Until then, they’re all [...]