Morning Links

Thursday, August 13th, 2009
  • Some of the worst polluting cars on the road inelligible for Clunkers program.
  • He blames gay marriage.
  • DEA/FBI participate in two medical marijuana raids in California.
  • Bill to legalize online poker introduced in the Senate.
  • Sculptures in motion.
  • Kenosha, WI alderman wants to fine people for swearing at police officers.
  • This will blow your mind.
  • Indiana congressman says town hall protests are “political terrorism.” Maybe I should start pitching my “Support Dissent” gear to the right, and it’s lefties who will give me dirty looks when I wear my own shirt in public.
  • The lawn chair wars continue!
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  • 92 Responses to “Morning Links”

    1. #1 |  Stephen | 

      “This will blow your mind”

      Click this link and watch the video at the bottom of the article. It really is worth it!

      I had already seen the Hubble ultra deep field but this was my first time seeing the 3D fly through.That was awesome! just imagining the kind of speed you would need to travel at to see that for real almost made me dizzy.

    2. #2 |  Dave Krueger | 

      Are you saying that the C4C program was tailored to cater to special interests? Well, butter my buns and call me a biscuit.

    3. #3 |  Dave Krueger | 

      The Drug Enforcement Administration, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Internal Revenue Service, Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, Los Angeles Police Department, Torrance Police Department and Culver City Police Department took part in the raids.

      LMAO!

    4. #4 |  Dave Krueger | 

      An alderman wants to give police officers and firefighters the authority to write a ticket to people who swear at them.

      What a dumbass, brain dead, piece of shit, scum-suckin’, mother-fuckin’, ass-wpie.

    5. #5 |  Stephen | 

      Re: gay marriage link

      “so she can meet her monthly expenses of $131,625. These include nearly $20,000 on clothing and jewelry, $7,000 in electric bills, $1,700 in groceries, $4,901 in household supplies, tuition at three private schools for some of the couple’s 10 grand children, $7,500 in salary for the full-time groundskeeper and housekeeper, $1,200 in membership dues for the La Jolla Country Club and money toward the hundreds of thousands of dollars in travel expenses the couple was accustomed to spending.”

      Wow… I bet several lawyers are going to get rich from this divorce case.

    6. #6 |  djm | 

      So we’ve got a story about someone demanding $130k+ a month in expenses, one about fining people for name-calling, and one about a group of people dedicated to discovering the quadrillions of worlds out there and modelling them for our educational pleasure.

      Todays links could well have been titled “Brains: Those who use them, those who do not.”

    7. #7 |  Tsu Dho Nihm | 

      Those sculptures are pretty cool. But I like the Gordie Howe sculpture quite a bit more.

    8. #8 |  Zargon | 

      #3
      The Drug Enforcement Administration, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Internal Revenue Service, Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, Los Angeles Police Department, Torrance Police Department and Culver City Police Department took part in the raids.

      LMAO!

      Well of course every gang within 100 miles jumped at this chance. They stole cash on the order of $100,000 while they were there. And got to shoot a dog!

    9. #9 |  Aresen | 

      $131K/month.

      I think I could get by on that.

      It’d be tough, but I’d manage somehow.

    10. #10 |  David Nieporent | 

      Obviously legalizing online poker is better than NOT legalizing online poker, but this isn’t exactly libertarian:

      Under the Menendez bill, gaming companies would have to undergo a thorough review by the Treasury Department including an analysis of the financial condition of the applicant, business record, and background checks. In addition, an applicant must submit a full financial statement, corporate structure documentation, and a certification that the applicant agrees to be subject to U.S. gambling laws. The Treasury could deny licenses for any firm believed to not meet the criteria set by the government. The measure proposes a license term of five years and renewal would be subject to the same requirements.

      The Treasury would be directed to develop guidelines for ensuring age verification and that bettors are physically located in a jurisdiction where gambling is legal. The agency would also have to ensure all taxes due are collected. Further, there are requirements to combat fraud, money laundering and compulsive gambling and to ensure games are fair and bettors’ privacy is protected. Licensed sites would have to pay a 10 percent tax on all deposits into playing accounts, the proceeds of which would be split evenly between the federal government and the government of the state where the player is located.

    11. #11 |  Johnny Clamboat | 

      Eric Holder: “The policy is to go after those people who violate both federal and state law….Given the limited resources that we have, our focus will be on people, organizations that are growing, cultivating substantial amounts of marijuana and doing so in a way that’s inconsistent with federal and state law.”

      So which state law was violated that prompted the DEA, et al, to make the raids? Illegal dog collar?

      At least the dog will be OK.

    12. #12 |  qwints | 

      Only good news in the pot raid story:

      “The dog that was shot by authorities was treated by a vet and expected to make a full recovery.”

    13. #13 |  scott in phx az | 

      your ‘support dissent’ gear is too tame. it won’t sell to the right.

      we like things like ‘don’t tread on me flags’ and t-shirts with slogans like ‘peace – through superior firepower’.

      you’ll have to radicalize up.

    14. #14 |  Ben | 

      $131K/month.

      I think I could get by on that.

      It’d be tough, but I’d manage somehow.

      Shit, I’d be her grounds keeper for $6k a month.

    15. #15 |  Jesse | 

      RE: C4C

      The fact that this program requires cars to be made inoperable and ultimately crushed makes this a flawed program. As a classic car owner and someone who would like to own more, I see the exemption as a good thing. Although, I would agree that many cars that are not classics now are disqualified. Furthermore, as someone who works on their own car to save money and buys used parts from time to time, I strongly disagree with crushing any of these cars. The whole program is flawed and doesn’t actually do anything for the environment. Reduce, reuse, recycle… this program is the opposite of that!

    16. #16 |  MacGregory | 

      Here is an example of real “political terrorism.” An excerpt from an article in
      http://townhall.com/columnists/ChuckNorris/2009/08/11/dirty_secret_no_1_in_obamacare

      It’s outlined in sections 440 and 1904 of the House bill (Page 838), under the heading “home visitation programs for families with young children and families expecting children.” The programs (provided via grants to states) would educate parents on child behavior and parenting skills.

      The bill says that the government agents, “well-trained and competent staff,” would “provide parents with knowledge of age-appropriate child development in cognitive, language, social, emotional, and motor domains … modeling, consulting, and coaching on parenting practices,” and “skills to interact with their child to enhance age-appropriate development.”

    17. #17 |  qwints | 

      @MacGregory,

      As a columnist, Chuck Norris is a good action hero. There’s not really anything new there. When I got married in Austin, the packet we got with a marriage license had some basic advice. CPS agencies across the nation routinely mandate counseling and parenting lessons. This is just federal funding for state programs already in place.

    18. #18 |  J sub D | 

      Sculptures in motion.

      Awesomely beautiful work. It evokes high speed multiple exposure photography, a beautiful artform in its own right.

    19. #19 |  J sub D | 

      I guess the cops in Kenosha can’t take being accurately described.
      What a bunch of fucking pussies.

    20. #20 |  seeker6079 | 

      Regarding Town Halls:
      Show up? Laudable. State your views? Necessary. Shout on occasion? Normal.

      Scream and yell so that nobody gets heard? Defeats the purpose of consulting the community (which IS the purpose for a lot of these guys). Create so much of a disturbance that no debate at all can take place? Anti-democratic and abusive of the liberty of your fellow citizens. Being a loudmouth with a gun in amongst a bunch of polite unarmed people? Fuck, you all figure that one out; none of you is an idiot.

      Supporters of the health care plan don’t want to silence those who oppose them. They just don’t want to silenced themselves. Whether you believe in the Obama health initiative or not (and pretty much nobody here does) one certainly can’t be so obtuse as to see that loud-mouth bullies screaming public consultation into nothingness is thuggishness of the first order.

      Look, let’s face it. At least ten to twenty percent of the American populace on the right is batshit crazy, immune to argument and downright hostile to reason, near-deranged with fury at a black president, and heavily armed. Let’s not confuse them with the earnest and infuriating lefties that libertarians hate so much: you disagree with them, but they’re not going to wig out and shoot you or opposing politicians with whom they disagree. The Right fringers will … and, in case you hadn’t noticed after the Holocaust museum, Pittsburg and Tiller killers, they’ve already started.

    21. #21 |  divadab | 

      Disrupting a public meeting by yelling over any attempt at civil dialog is not dissent – it is disrespectful bullying and the opposite of democracy. Mob rule – the first step to fascism.

      Take off your ideological blinders and consider how disgraceful this boorish, thuggish, ignorant, stupid behavior is. And how it is being led by paid corporate shills like the odious moral degenerate Limbaugh. Truly repulsive in body and in mind.

    22. #22 |  Chris in AL | 

      Frankly I find that online gambling bill very disappointing. It would only be allowed in jurisdictions that already allow poker. So I can fly to Vegas or Atlantic City to play poker online?

    23. #23 |  J sub D | 

      Those sculptures are pretty cool. But I like the Gordie Howe sculpture quite a bit more.

      Omri Amrany does great work. Have tou seen his Detroit Tiger stuff at Comerica Park? The Willie Horton statue is, IMHO, the best of the lot there.

    24. #24 |  divadab | 

      Incidentally, IMHO the Federal Government of the United States of America, once a republic, is almost entirely corrupt, owned by corporate interests parasitic (even predatory) upon the people of the country.

      They don’t want us to have universal healthcare because it cuts into their profits and executive multi-million dollar paydays. They want the population to eat unhealthy food because not only is selling the food profitable, the downstream health problems of corporate poison food (diabetes, obesity, etc) are profitable to big pharma. The real enemy of the people here is corporate greed and power, not progressives trying to make for social justice. The right is so deluded and misled it’s pathetic. But I suppose it’s understandable – what is a conservative but someone lacking imagination, afraid of the future and clinging to the past?

    25. #25 |  thomasblair | 

      Did someone put out a call to the lefties to come in and defend the town hall meetings?

      We all know that these congresscritters don’t give a shit (oops!) about our opinions.

    26. #26 |  Boyd Durkin | 

      “Look, let’s face it. At least ten to twenty percent of the American populace on the right is batshit crazy…”

      God I hate it when people start posts with “Look…”. Look, if you are a Republican or a Democrat you are batshit crazy. Yes, I have proof.

    27. #27 |  seeker6079 | 

      thomasblair:
      Remember and understand the echo chamber. If Rush et al. get the mouthbreathers to scream and yell and disrupt the town halls that’s democracy and right in their eyes. If the lefties come out to support the cause that will be trumpeted as oppressing the opposition, being suppressed, and so on, thus validating their view that they are endangered and threatened, and thus encouraging further aggression and violence on their part. This is a niche part of the American populace that defines “democracy” as “we get our way” and “others might get their turn or their way” as a threat. And there’s a large network of radio, TV and online sources to encourage and foster that insular and festering thinking.

    28. #28 |  divadab | 

      thomasblair – thanks for proving my point – dialog? NO! Putting fingers in ears while disrespecting anyone with a different view? YES!

      Wake up to the real enemy – it’s not “lefties”, it’s corporate power. And the reason the “congresscritters” don;t listen to us is that they don;t have too – we’re too busy arguing among ourselves while their pockets are lined with corporate bribes (sorry – campaign contributions and advertizing).

    29. #29 |  Boyd Durkin | 

      “Disrupting a public meeting by yelling over any attempt at civil dialog is not dissent – it is disrespectful bullying and the opposite of democracy. ”

      If you have a mob at Town Hall, you might just deserve a mob at Town Hall. Start there…try to work away from that point.

      And, lying and pandering isn’t a civil dialog.

      You are right that disrespectful bullying is (almost) the opposite of democracy. Since Congress has been the disrespectful (global) bully for about 100 years, you might discover why you have those mobs at Town Hall.

      Check that backyard of yours!

    30. #30 |  seeker6079 | 

      Boyd Durkin:

      Look, I’m sorry that you feel that way but…

      Oh dear. I did it again.

    31. #31 |  Boyd Durkin | 

      Look, that was my line!

    32. #32 |  seeker6079 | 

      Yeah, look, but don’t touch!

    33. #33 |  seeker6079 | 

      Boyd at #29:
      Do you remember what Churchill said about the Orange mobs and his father’s “Ulster will be fight and Ulster will be right” slogan for them? That it was a motto in which every bully with a brickbat and thug with a pistol could take comfort? Your statement…

      If you have a mob at Town Hall, you might just deserve a mob at Town Hall…

      is like that that. You might be right. But it’s too damn comforting a point for a screaming hoodlum who hates the idea that, say, 70% of the population wants but he doesn’t want them to have, which he’s sure is wrong. It’s their excuse, their rationale.

    34. #34 |  divadab | 

      Boyd D – I suppose we could go back to the potemkin village town halls Bushco used to run, where all the participants were hand-picked and any dissenters were locked out.

      People are mad, for good reason. But their anger is being misdirected by paid propagandists who control the media. WHich isn’t “liberal” at all – it is corporate. Take a look at who sponsors Limbaugh, and consider whose interests he serves.

    35. #35 |  seeker6079 | 

      divadab:
      Be fair. Not all dissenters were locked out. Some were arrested.

    36. #36 |  MacK | 

      I can’t do the cash for clunkers (CARS), because I was concerned about fuel waste, before it was popular, and never bought a gas guzzling vehicle. Why is it most government programs reward the wasteful?

      Haven’t swearing at police policies already been shown to NOT pass constitutional muster by the Supreme Court? Is his next step to have police arrest anyone that cusses in the presence of a public official such as maybe an Alderman?

    37. #37 |  Dave Krueger | 

      Maybe the town hall meetings should have “free speech zones” a few blocks away to keep dissenters from disrupting the proceedings. If Bush was able to do it to democrats protesting him, then certainly republicans wouldn’t complain if democrats use the same strategy.

      Actually, if Bush had proposed the exact same health care plan, the roll of the two parties would now be reversed. The ideas don’t matter to the two parties. The only thing that matters is whose ideas they are.

    38. #38 |  seeker6079 | 

      “Why is it most government programs reward the wasteful?”

      They don’t necessarily reward the wasteful; they merely a reflection of the fact that one has to repair damage done by stupid, selfish people more often than one has to do so for smart, altruistic ones.

      “Haven’t swearing at police policies already been shown to NOT pass constitutional muster by the Supreme Court? ”

      1. Authoritarian yobbos don’t care about the law.
      2. With Roberts, Alito Scalia and Thomas as secure votes the authoritians are betting on a one-in-five chance that the court will be more authoritarian the next-go-round. That’s not bad odds.

    39. #39 |  seeker6079 | 

      “If Bush was able to do it to democrats protesting him…”

      Bush did it to ANYBODY that opposed him; they didn’t have to be Democracts.

      “…then certainly republicans wouldn’t complain if democrats use the same strategy.”

      Shame, decency, or concern about hypocricy have not been GOP qualities for quite some time now.

    40. #40 |  seeker6079 | 

      I am just watching the scores go negative on my first post without rebuttals, and it makes me smile. There are libertarians here, and they attack back in the open, and challenge arguments. And there are the conservative lurkers who like to call themselves libertarian, but are not.

    41. #41 |  divadab | 

      Seeker – the “conservative lurkers’ masquerading as libertarians you refer to are members of the authoritarian group who still control the Republikan party of Amerika. Bizarro world…..

    42. #42 |  qwints | 

      @Dave,

      Well said sir.

    43. #43 |  Mike Healy | 

      #40, What arguments would those be? All I hear (or see) from you is vitriol and unsubtantiated claims.

      And for what it’s worth, I’m most definitely NOT a conservative.

    44. #44 |  Mike Healy | 

      “substantiated”. Can’t type.

    45. #45 |  Aresen | 

      #40.

      It is my right not to like you or what you say and “go negative”.

      There. Did it on post 40

      There is no requirement to rebut.

    46. #46 |  J sub D | 

      I’m going to throw a meaty bone to the supporters of health care reform, in particular the supporters of a government insurance option.

      If the government insurance option is not subsidized by tax dollars, i.e. entirely paid for by premiums collected (including salary and benefits for administraors, electricity, office space and other business expenses) and required to conform to all laws that govern private health insurance providers, go for it.

      You don’t even have to make a profit, just break even.

      When it goes broke, you have to tell the folks who had paid premiums they are no longer covered and can’t get refunds because you are bankrupt, you’ll come crawling on your knees begging forgiveness from this libertarian who predicted you’d fail..

      IOW, no explicit or implicit guarantee that the taxpayers will cover your losses.

      Write all of that into the legislation (except the knee crawling, I’ll take you on your word for that) and you have my support.

      Any takers?

    47. #47 |  Mike Leatherwood | 

      You’re a biscuit, Dave. A buttered, flaky, buttermilk biscuit.

    48. #48 |  Fluffy | 

      Disrupting a public meeting by yelling over any attempt at civil dialog is not dissent – it is disrespectful bullying and the opposite of democracy. Mob rule – the first step to fascism.

      Take off your ideological blinders and consider how disgraceful this boorish, thuggish, ignorant, stupid behavior is. And how it is being led by paid corporate shills like the odious moral degenerate Limbaugh. Truly repulsive in body and in mind.

      Um, who said that free speech was a dialogue?

      If I muster a couple of hundred people together to protest something, we are under no obligation to stop in the middle of our protest [and throw away our momentum] if someone comes up and wants to have a “dialogue” with us. It might be nice if we did that, and there might be good reasons to do it, but we certainly aren’t obligated to do it and if we decide just to keep protesting, that’s our prerogative.

      Did the people who went to protests against World Bank meetings stop their protest and have everyone shut up whenever anyone walked up to wanted a “dialogue”?

      Did the people who protested nuclear power plant construction unchain themselves from the front gates, put down their signs and turn off their bullhorns every time someone walked by who wanted a “dialogue”?

      If I don’t like the policies my Congressman is planning to pursue, if I want to show up wherever he is and yell at him, that’s part of the price he pays for being a Congressman. Don’t like it? Arrest me, and we’ll see how that goes.

    49. #49 |  James D | 

      I still find it HILARIOUS that a community organizer (with ties to truly ‘organized thug groups’ like Acorn and the SEIU) and his Democratic colleagues (who always seem to have Dial-A-Mob on the speed dial for THEIR protest needs) …. are now complaining when plain, disorganized people are showing up and demanding answers. A lot of the people are registered Democrats too.

      Once again, the huge amount of hypocrisy on the left (along with the complicit media) never ceases to amaze me.

    50. #50 |  Helmut O' Hooligan | 

      “The alderman behind this ordinance says it’s about putting officers first, but some wonder what about the first amendment?”

      “Kenosha Alderman Patrick Juliana says he got the idea for the proposed ordinance after seeing firsthand a night in the life of Kenosha police.”

      In a properly functioning democratic republic, proposing an ordinance like this would elicit hasty calls from the WI Attorney General and U.S. Attorney General Holder warning Alderman Juliana to cease and desist, as this proposed ordinance is blatantly unconstitutional (It is vague, overbroad aand interferes with the right of the people to petition government for redress of grievances. It is also statist nonsense). If the alderman continued with the process, and the ordinance was passed by the council, more angry letters and phone calls should result. And the first time the ordinance is enforced, the FBI Civil Rights Division should get involved and arrest ALL of those responsible for passing and enforcing the ordinance. They should then be tried in the Federal Courts for civil right violations…in a properly functioning democratic republic.

    51. #51 |  Dave Krueger | 

      #46 J sub D

      If the government insurance option is not subsidized by tax dollars, i.e. entirely paid for by premiums collected (including salary and benefits for administraors, electricity, office space and other business expenses) and required to conform to all laws that govern private health insurance providers, go for it.

      It’s not subsidized aside from that trillion dollars over ten years.

    52. #52 |  J sub D | 

      It’s not subsidized aside from that trillion dollars over ten years.

      Then I have a trillion problems with it.

      C’mon Obamaniacs, you won’t have to pay your executives obscene salaries, you won’t have to waste money on bureaucratic inefficiencies, you won’t have to even make a dime.

      How hard could it be?

    53. #53 |  Joshgeek | 

      Radley, thanks so much for the link to the Kenosha story. the more people who hear about it, the more national coverage it gets, the better. I was in disbelief when I heard about something so horrendously ignorant of our rights. And it’s not that I support swearing at cops or would ever in my life recieve such a ticket. It’s that this could be just the beginning in terms of the disregard of our rights by municipalities. It could set a very dangerous precedent if it goes on unopposed. Kudos to all the fine work u do here at theagitator.com!

    54. #54 |  flukebucket | 

      If I don’t like the policies my Congressman is planning to pursue, if I want to show up wherever he is and yell at him, that’s part of the price he pays for being a Congressman.

      Yeah but the problem is that you are the one that is going to look like some kind of dumb ass. Kind of like sticking your fingers in your ears and say lalalalalalala. It is definitely your prerogative. I just can’t figure out why any rational person would choose that course of action.

    55. #55 |  perlhaqr | 

      The C4C program also requires the dealers to destroy parts I could use to make my “unqualified” car *get* better mileage. The fuel injected motor out of a ’99 dodge pickup would fit right into my ’72 Satellite.

      But instead the Feds are spending money they taxed from me to buy parts I want, and destroy them. Fuckers.

    56. #56 |  Michael Pack | 

      I think it’s about time people get mad over the government trying to control such a huge part of the economy.There’s so many thing in the budget that were never meant to be allowed I’m afraid it might be to late.As for one example,the price of sugar is going through the roof and it’s due to price controls that benefit a few growers in this country.Government has no business providing health care,or farm payments or for that matter the drug war.

    57. #57 |  JS | 

      Dave Krueger “Actually, if Bush had proposed the exact same health care plan, the roll of the two parties would now be reversed. The ideas don’t matter to the two parties. The only thing that matters is whose ideas they are.”

      Well that one is going in my collection of brilliant Dave Krueger quotes!

    58. #58 |  supercat | 

      //Some of the worst polluting cars on the road inelligible for Clunkers program. //

      That’s because the purpose of the program isn’t to destroy real clunkers, but rather to destroy decent used cars that would otherwise have replaced real clunkers. The authors of the legislation couldn’t have come right out and said that, of course, but every rusted-out 1972 clunker they destroyed would be one less nice car they could trash.

      I’m flabbergasted, though, by dealers’ willingness to destroy the old cars before they receive payment for them. Anyone gullible enough to trust the government deserves to lose money.

    59. #59 |  newshutz | 

      Dave Krueger “Actually, if Bush had proposed the exact same health care plan, the roll of the two parties would now be reversed. The ideas don’t matter to the two parties. The only thing that matters is whose ideas they are.”

      Bush did make several health care reform proposals after the medicare drug benefit. The democrats in congress were not willing to engage in a dialog.

    60. #60 |  James D | 

      newshutz is right. Bush had a great proposal (one of the best his administration ever had) for ‘Personal Health Accounts’ or whatever. The problem there is that dreaded ‘personal responsibility’ part scared the people away.

    61. #61 |  Boyd Durkin | 

      “If you have a mob at Town Hall, you might just deserve a mob at Town Hall…” — Me

      I stand by my statement. I won’t raise a gun (only a pen and a ticket out of the country) against the state when fascism/collectivism rules, but I sure will understand the position of those that do. All actions have consequences and constantly claiming moral superiority (I’m looking at the Mid-East here) doesn’t save your hide from the lunitics wearing white/blue or black/white/red/green.

      Just to be blunt, I’ve stated that the USA is not ready for the liberty most on this site hope for. There’d be riots (IMHO) if the free cheese stopped from those that are generations of thought away from getting off the mailbox. Yes, this is condescending on my part. Meh.

      You (Congress) ignored the voters and gave your buddies trillions. You ignored the voters and fought useless wars, raised taxes forever, expanded government to “Everything”, blew snot on the Constitution, lied, killed, ruined, imprisoned, and pretty much dry ass fucked everyone and every ideal in some way, shape or form. Yes, finally, a couple angry old timers are raising their voices and wagging their fingers at you when you try to shovel more ass manure at them about how they’ll be OK when they see you reaching for their mule and bending them over yet again.

      Heroes? Town Hall Mobs. Put a screaming grandpa on a t-shirt and wipe the bum with Che.

    62. #62 |  JS | 

      Great post Boyd! The ticket out though might become increasingly more difficult in the coming days:

      http://www.escapeartist.com/Expat_Taxes/Trapped_In_America/

      http://www.lewrockwell.com/snyder/snyder19.1.html

    63. #63 |  Andrew | 

      RE:Medical marijuana raids

      It’s too bad a governor with some balls wouldn’t stand up to the feds. Prohibit law enforcement in his state from cooperating or interacting with the DEA. Prohibit the DEA from possessing firearms or making arrests in his state. Prohibit the DEA from even operating in his state and require their offices be closed and their personnel leave the state. If they refuse to do so send in the state police and national guard to remove them by force.

    64. #64 |  justaguy | 

      Heres one of a guy just sitting on his porch, and the cops just walk up and taser him. It sounds like I’m exaggerating, but I’m not.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeBkuBQ_nSk

    65. #65 |  Sam | 

      I wondered when I saw all the comments…too bad this degenerated into simple name calling. Besides Dave’s ubiquitously correct “it ain’t the program, it’s the guys on the other side they’re fighting against” message, there are a number of items worth addressing. One of the most downrated posts was pretty spot on until it hit the “righties are crazy” button and everyone ignored what came before.

      So, just for a recap of my thoughts…the people on the extreme left *and* right are a bit mentally loose, aggressive, and looking for a reason to kill you to secure their righteousness victories. You still need to listen to them long enough to catch the important things they say you would have missed otherwise. Corporate influence isn’t all fluffy bunnies and government influence isn’t all bad, but you can’t go crazy with defining your system of rules…there is no set of rules so accurate that someone can’t figure out a way to game it nor is there a way to game the system so deviant that someone won’t do it once they figure it out. Set some basic rules for *everything* so we all know where we stand, back off and adjust as necessary on the fly (NOT with new laws).

      I really do think universal health care is a good idea. Period. It can also be a back door to socialism, communism, fascism, and all the other -isms that we’ve already got and no one wants to face up to just like every other program ever put into place…I mean seriously, we take the whole “interstate commerce” thing with a straight face these days…

    66. #66 |  Sam | 

      Oh, and as to why an NHS style system is ok in my book: It works better than you think if you haven’t used it (yeah I’ve spent time in London). If you’re worried about all the irresponsible idiots draining our system of money then you’ve already missed the boat. It’s already happening and our current system does nothing but try to pretend it doesn’t exist. When you’re sick and broke you go to the emergency room…they’re required by law to treat you to a certain extent but the gray area means you get kicked away for smaller cheaper problems that become bigger more expensive ones later. All of those expenses for problems small now or big later come to us tax & insurance payers already. Installing a system to manage that may piss you off but it beats the hell out of closing your eyes and humming real loud so you don’t have to hear your bank account emptying.

    67. #67 |  Sam | 

      Town meetings: yeah, the angry mob has some good reasons to be upset…they also have really really bad ones. The complete inability to figure out the whole euthanasia thing boggles my mind. There are some pretty shitty people out there doing some pretty shitty things, but if you think that they’re trying to “kill off the old people” you’ve stretched and broken your connection to reality.

      Never mind the part where insurance companies do, literally, already try to let old ppl die, or the truly useful question about how the successes and failures of medicare or the VA should mould our discussion about gov’t run health care. Yelling that you don’t like it doesn’t help. I don’t like it when my cat gets run over but I’m the dumbass that let him out.

    68. #68 |  OneByTheCee | 

      I am deeply offended and enraged that fucktard, Rep. Baron Hill (D-Ind.) would dare refer to this as “terrorism”. Another fear mongering asswipe demeaning and belittling persons who have actually died or have been maimed due to REAL TERRORISM.

      As for the traitor-to-the-American -people-and-their-constitutional-rights, Kenosha WI Alderman Patrick Juliana, I stumbled across something he was quoted as saying in another matter:

      “Alderman Patrick Juliana said …. “There are too many thin-skinned people on this council,”
      http://www.kenoshanews.com/news/alderman_seek

      Apparently he also believes this includes those really sensitive types: Police and Fire Personnel.

      Deeper and more probing questions should be forcefully put to Juliana (like a taser pressed up against his anus): How much have the PD/FD agreed to contribute to your campaign fund and/or what’s the split on the proposed fines between the City, Police and Fire Dept to make up for budgetary shortfalls, for example, pay raises?

      Noting the marijuana raid, Dave Krueger is truly spot on – free money. The City of Torrance is no where near these dispensary locations. Unfortunately, 100k won’t go very far with all the involved agencies. But there’s still hope: when the LEO’s commence the asset forfeiture civil proceedings long before any meaningful criminal proceedings either commence or conclude.

      TPD has stated they will not allow Medical Marijuana in “their city” regardless of what the “civilians” of the State of CA may have voted for. Interesting side note: The local paper based in Torrance-The Daily Breeze, has not reported on this story. Their crime reporter, (whom, by the way, is unusually adept at deep throating any local PD’s “baton” / version of events) has been mum on the raid. Probably due to “that icky dog shooting stuff.”

    69. #69 |  Yizmo Gizmo | 

      “It’s too bad a governor with some balls wouldn’t stand up to the feds. Prohibit law enforcement in his state from cooperating or interacting with the DEA.”
      Yeah, especially for a crime that should be State jurisdiction.
      The drafters of the Constitution clearly intended the states to bear responsibility for public safety. The Constitution gave Congress jurisdiction over only three crimes: treason, counterfeiting, and piracy on the high seas and offenses against the law of nations.
      Maybe I am naive, but how did pot selling get sucked into Federal jurisdiction?

    70. #70 |  ktc2 | 

      I’ve yet to see or hear any of these thugish protestors at the meetings actually manage a coherent argument. Everything seems to be, “I’m afraid of Obama!” or “It’s socialism!” or “They’re going to kill my _________ with their Death Panels!” or “Rush / Beck / O’Reilly says . . . “.

      There are plenty of reasons to oppose the plan but these just seem to be empty heads chanting whatever their “leaders” (i.e. the far rightwing nutjobs mentioned above) tell them.

      I’ve also noticed they mostly appear to be of Medicare recipient age so it’s kind of an “I got mine already and you’re paying for it! The rest of you can just die!” attitude toward others in need. No doubt at least fear of losing their current socialized medicine by expanding it or creating something similar for others.

      Ideally this would be resolved by getting the feds completely out of medical care, but we all know that is NOT going to happen this century. So what to do?

      I’ve worked in healthcare for small physicians and large hospitals for the last 15 years. None of the programs currently proposed will get to the root of the problem. They will however provide some coverage for those in real need. There is much that could be done to reduce the actual cost of healthcare and make it affordable for all but the poorest for home programs already exist but none of the congresscritters will allow this as there is too much cash being made, and enough of it rerouted to them through lobbyists. Therefore actual reform that brings down the cost of healthcare will never happen in this country.

      No this is NOT an anticapitalist statement. The US hasn’t been capitalist since approximately 1913 by my reckoning. In a real capitalist society competition would keep prices low, this doesn’t happen here due to government intervention that will never be undone.

      Given the state of our no longer capitalist country it’s just plain stupid to whine about socialism. You’ve been living under socialism, perhaps veiled, for near a hundred years.

      Also, where were all these shouted warnings of socialism when the trillions for billionaire bankers shit was happening? That sure as hell was socialism. Or is it only “bad” socialism when they’re trying to help the average family (who aren’t retirement age)? There were some complaints about that to be sure, mostly from libertarians but these same people violently opposing healthcare reform were mostly in favor of that bit of socialism.

      Sorry for the all of text. Just sick of this shit.

    71. #71 |  Indiana Representative Baron Hill (3rd District) refers to angry constituents as political terrorists, rather than hecklers. | Popehat | 

      [...] Via Radley Balko. [...]

    72. #72 |  Fluffy | 

      There are some pretty shitty people out there doing some pretty shitty things, but if you think that they’re trying to “kill off the old people” you’ve stretched and broken your connection to reality.

      I would say this:

      I don’t believe for one second that anyone involved in creating this bill is consciously thinking to themselves, “Let’s put something in here that allows us to kill off all the old people.”

      But it’s not appropriate to analyze the bill using the intentions of the people writing the bill as your starting point.

      What is appropriate is to look at the bill’s overall structure and say, “Assuming complete bad faith on the part of the bureaucrats who will have to implement this bill, what are the worst possible outcomes?” The reason this is appropriate is because every other bill passed into law eventually degenerates to its worst bad faith outcome.

      End of Life counseling + bureaucratic boards entitled to prioritize care + bureaucratic pressure to cut costs + “bad faith worst case outcome” = system bias towards pressuring old people to stop costing everyone so much money. That’s just the way it will work itself out.

      Radley likes to post stories on this blog about police shooting dogs. When police departments sit down to write policies about police conduct while serving warrants, no one sat there thinking to themselves, “Hmmm…how can I write these policies so that assholes who are pumped to discharge their weapons will be able to finally shooting something and get away with it? I know, I’ll make it OK to shoot dogs if you feel ‘threatened’.” That’s just not what happened. What happened is that policies were crafted largely in good faith but implemented in bad faith, because all state systems are implemented in bad faith. That is what will happen with any health care policy we devise, too.

    73. #73 |  James D | 

      ktc2, you and the other lefties are injecting the Rush/Oreilly/etc crap into the debate … a LOT of these people are DEMOCRATs … so speak your OPINION all you want but stop trying to make it into some sort of “right-wing radio is organizing this” bullshit. Show me some proof …. As can be easily pointed out, it’s the democrats/liberals who are well-organized and have ‘dial-a-mob’ on their speed dials. It’s pretty obvious that conservatives (exhibit A – last years election) can’t organize their way out of a paper bag.

      And as to why there is more outrage to this than the OTHER socialist things happening; it’s because people feel more directly affected by healthcare than “your tax money is being wasted yet again on another stupid government program”. I may think all of that should be protested against, but most Americans just don’t get that involved.

    74. #74 |  Geoff | 

      Fluffy,

      I completely agree with your view on the ambiguous bill. I fear it will be seen as another, if not the quintessential “living document” of the United States. If it is passed and doesn’t work as advertised, it will be re-interpreted.

      Pieces of this bill are only being explained when leaders are being called out and there are way to many pieces. On HealthReform.gov, there is not a single easy to read outline or synopsis of the intended operating procedure of the bill. I can see peoples’ personal stories, problems with the system, statistics supporting the ends of the plan, but there are no explainations. All END,no MEANS!
      The only real explanations I see is in all of the debunking literature and articles. If they would debunk the whole Bill, I would be smitten. Thats what I want, and know I will never get.

      Fortunately, lawmakers are beginning to explain that they have no way to read and comprehend all of it, so that if any unexpected consequences arise they can try to wiggle out of responsibility. The conference committee on this bill alone is going to be a nightmare if the bill is passed. The only transparency this Administration has is a huge Ventian blind with a great big smiley face painted on it.

    75. #75 |  ktc2 | 

      Uh no, actually, that’s what I’ve seen and heard these people saying on various news programs on various channels. So they are injecting it, I’m just referencing their comments.

    76. #76 |  ktc2 | 

      I would also question how they are more “directly involved” by giving trillions of dollars to provide healthcare for those in need than by providing trillions of dollars for the comfort of billionaires through a recession and/or for completely unnecessary wars that earn us numerous more enemies worldwide who want to kill us.

    77. #77 |  divadab | 

      This country’s fucked. You’re a bunch of brainwashed unhealthy morons. Fuck you, fuck your authoritarian retard jingoism, fuck your steroidal militarism, fuck your ignorant bullying ways, fuck your complete disrespect for anything, especially yourselves.

      Go disrupt a meeting with your donkey braying. Fuck off and die from cancer without insurance and with the DEA making sure your doctor is too intimidated to prescribe an effective painkiller.

      Keep on supporting a corrupt predatory federal state that is directly opposed to your own interests. Keep feeding the greediest, most immoral people in the world who control the corporations sucking the country’s treasure into their pockets.

      You disgust me, contemptible cowards and weaklings, who can only feel strong in a bullying group. Fascist fucks. Go lick Cheney’s arse again, authoritarian dick worshippers.

    78. #78 |  divadab | 

      Oh ya – Have a nice day! ;>0

    79. #79 |  Aresen | 

      Come on divadab.

      Tell us how you really feel.

    80. #80 |  ktc2 | 

      I just got back from the lunchroom where CNN was on the TV.

      First thing I hear is some lady on TV saying, “It’s too much change! He’s scaring us with too much change too fast!”. She was referring of course to Obama and healthcare reform.

      LOL.

    81. #81 |  Mattocracy | 

      Thanks for visiting divadab, you big baby. I like how you pushed all these labels on us just because we disagree with you. Did it ever occur to you that people can dislike universal healthcare and still not support corporate thugary? Or maybe that people can can be oppose universal coverage without worshipping Limbaugh and Fox News?

      But I guess that would make your view of the world too complicated. I guess it’s better to label everyone different from you part of the evil right who all believe the same things because it’s easier for you to comprehend. Bush had a similar black and white world view. Thanks for the hypocrisy, you’ve pretty much reinforced every negative stereotype of the left/right.

    82. #82 |  MNT | 

      We think that your readers will be interested in this article from the “Broward-Palm Beach New Times”, about a man who was left brain damaged from a car collision with a Broward deputy ten years ago, and who still has not received any money from the health insurance company or BSO.

      Here is a link: http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2009-08-13/news/a-deputy-left-eric-brody-brain-damaged-and-his-family-still-hasn-t-received-a-penny/

      Thank you

    83. #83 |  wunder | 

      So far the people in my office who are OK with the reforms being proposed have this argument, “Well something has to be done.”

      How do you even debate that? When I say, “Yes, but this isn’t the answer, and will only make the problem worse. The government does such a great job of running the other health insurance programs – Medicare and Medicaid – after all. By all means lets give them even more to manage.” They answer with, ” but but but something has to be done.”
      That’s the extent of the argument. Apparently, offering up other solutions besides an absurd increase in the federal government’s meddling means “doing nothing” – unreal. Oh, and it also means I’m an “authoritarion dick worshipper who licks Cheney’s arse.”

    84. #84 |  Aresen | 

      wunder

      I know that argument all too well. There are two answers:

      Why?

      or

      Look before you leap.

    85. #85 |  ktc2 | 

      Anybody see TDS last night?

      They had a great bit on Glen Beck. Showing him on Fox ranting about the evils of healthcare reform and how we have the “greatest healthcare in the world” and then video from less than two years earlier on CNN talking about America’s healthcare nightmare and how something must be done.

      ROFL.

    86. #86 |  wunder | 

      Oh, Arensen, that’s funny. When I say “Why” it means that I want the status quo, and therefore I want poor people dying in the street. And when I did make the argument that Congress was trying to shove through an 1100 page bill in five days without any real review, the answer I got was “No they weren’t. Well that was then; now they’re debating it and working on a bill, so let’s wait and see what they come up with and really have a debate. And, anyway, something has to be done.” I just laughed.

      Of course, this all started because I have the despair.com “Government … If you think the problems we create are bad, just wait until you see our solutions” poster outside my cube. I always put this up when they’re busy “fixing” things for us. It went up after the stimulus bill passed, too.

    87. #87 |  Big Texan | 

      “authoritarion dick worshipper who licks Cheney’s arse”

      pics or it didn’t happen

    88. #88 |  Aresen | 

      wunder

      The response to the “dying in the streets” meme is “What makes you think that won’t happen with government medicare?”

      While one can make an egalitarian argument that everyone should be entitled to medical care – (I don’t agree with it, but the argument can be made if you hold that it is a right) – the simple fact is that resources, including medical resources, are limited at any particular point in time. If you are going to provide medical care to some people who are presently not covered, it follows that those medical resources are not going to be available to someone else and they will die. A capitalist system has an incentive to expand those resources and, by doing so profitably, does so in a way that tends to promote economic growth. Ultimately, this promotes the growth in the total resources available for all purposes, including medical care.

      Big Texan

      I know a few websites that would pay big money for those pics. :)

    89. #89 |  James D | 

      You liberals aren’t even worth my time anymore …. I’ll just wait for the NEXT story focusing on yet ANOTHER ridiculous/creapy/etc part of the bill … which no Democrat apparently has time to read.

      I just hope this whole episode makes Americans hold all politicians more accountable for what is in their bills.

    90. #90 |  Aresen | 

      ?

      Did someone see a liberal (in the modern, not the classical, sense) around here. Other than as a troll?

    91. #91 |  Boyd Durkin | 

      This thread started with not much chance of being special, but BRAVO! You guys really kicked it up a notch here.

      Loved it.

      Fuck the fucking fuckers!

    92. #92 |  James D | 

      So are ktc2 and divadab trolls then? Because they certainly can’t be libertarians ….

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