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	<title>Comments on: Popular Mechanics on the Flaws in Forensic Science</title>
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	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: Dexter the quack &#171; Entitled to an Opinion</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-333170</link>
		<dc:creator>Dexter the quack &#171; Entitled to an Opinion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 06:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-333170</guid>
		<description>[...] and I also remember reading a bit from Roger Koppl on forensics, but it wasn&#8217;t until this recent post directing readers to a very good Popular Mechanics article that it sunk in that most forensics in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and I also remember reading a bit from Roger Koppl on forensics, but it wasn&#8217;t until this recent post directing readers to a very good Popular Mechanics article that it sunk in that most forensics in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: FBIS_LLC</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-332699</link>
		<dc:creator>FBIS_LLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 15:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-332699</guid>
		<description>I deal mainly with fingerprints, Prof. Koppl has some good insights and suggestions. Since the current system depends on an adverserial evaluation of evidence, defense attorneys need to utilize independent forensic experts more to get an unbiased opinion. I do realize that didn&#039;t work in the Madrid bombing case, independent examiner erred as well but using the independent examiner will lessen the liklihood of error.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I deal mainly with fingerprints, Prof. Koppl has some good insights and suggestions. Since the current system depends on an adverserial evaluation of evidence, defense attorneys need to utilize independent forensic experts more to get an unbiased opinion. I do realize that didn&#8217;t work in the Madrid bombing case, independent examiner erred as well but using the independent examiner will lessen the liklihood of error.</p>
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		<title>By: Chance</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-332224</link>
		<dc:creator>Chance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 19:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-332224</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t like the idea of entire areas of the country going completely without schools because no company believes it can turn a profit on a class size so small.

And I don’t like the idea of local communities determining curriculum. For one thing, people move. And you know what? 2+2=4, and evolution is true, regardless of where in the country you live.&lt;/i&gt;

Right on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don’t like the idea of entire areas of the country going completely without schools because no company believes it can turn a profit on a class size so small.</p>
<p>And I don’t like the idea of local communities determining curriculum. For one thing, people move. And you know what? 2+2=4, and evolution is true, regardless of where in the country you live.</i></p>
<p>Right on.</p>
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		<title>By: Chet</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-332103</link>
		<dc:creator>Chet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 15:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-332103</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I like the idea of an enterprise depending on its ability to satisfy paying customers in order to survive.&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t like the idea of entire areas of the country going completely without schools because no company believes it can turn a profit on a class size so small.

And I &lt;I&gt;don&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; like the idea of local communities determining curriculum. For one thing, people move. And you know what? 2+2=4, and evolution is true, regardless of where in the country you live.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I like the idea of an enterprise depending on its ability to satisfy paying customers in order to survive.</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t like the idea of entire areas of the country going completely without schools because no company believes it can turn a profit on a class size so small.</p>
<p>And I <i>don&#8217;t</i> like the idea of local communities determining curriculum. For one thing, people move. And you know what? 2+2=4, and evolution is true, regardless of where in the country you live.</p>
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		<title>By: Washington Planner &#187; Monday required reading</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-332083</link>
		<dc:creator>Washington Planner &#187; Monday required reading</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-332083</guid>
		<description>[...] Balko points to the huge problems in forensic science, and the systemic overreach of criminal prosecution as a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Balko points to the huge problems in forensic science, and the systemic overreach of criminal prosecution as a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Krueger</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-332050</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Krueger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-332050</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;#9    Ron 

Why not eliminate schools altogether? I can’t think of too many things more inimical to libertarian ideals than forced government indoctrination.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m all for eliminating government schools.  In the modern world where failure is the primary requisite for funding, this admittedly wouldn&#039;t be a popular concept, but I like the idea of an enterprise depending on its ability to satisfy paying customers in order to survive. 

I also like the idea of a teacher&#039;s job depending on her performance as evaluated by the school which depends on its teachers for its reputation and capacity to attract customers.  I like the idea of school administration being a support function rather than a jobs program for clerical workers.   I like the idea of a school being able to throw troublemakers out on their asses rather than letting them burden the entire school with their requirement for constant supervision.  I like the idea that the school sets the dress code and behavioral rules based on what it believes is needed to make the school run effectively and efficiently.  But, most of all, I like the idea that a school can teach the curriculum that its customer base values rather than getting direction based on politics from a central office in the state or federal capitol.

By the way, libertarians don&#039;t promote the elimination of schools altogether.  Your comment says far more about your own ignorance than it does about libertarians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>#9    Ron </p>
<p>Why not eliminate schools altogether? I can’t think of too many things more inimical to libertarian ideals than forced government indoctrination.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m all for eliminating government schools.  In the modern world where failure is the primary requisite for funding, this admittedly wouldn&#8217;t be a popular concept, but I like the idea of an enterprise depending on its ability to satisfy paying customers in order to survive. </p>
<p>I also like the idea of a teacher&#8217;s job depending on her performance as evaluated by the school which depends on its teachers for its reputation and capacity to attract customers.  I like the idea of school administration being a support function rather than a jobs program for clerical workers.   I like the idea of a school being able to throw troublemakers out on their asses rather than letting them burden the entire school with their requirement for constant supervision.  I like the idea that the school sets the dress code and behavioral rules based on what it believes is needed to make the school run effectively and efficiently.  But, most of all, I like the idea that a school can teach the curriculum that its customer base values rather than getting direction based on politics from a central office in the state or federal capitol.</p>
<p>By the way, libertarians don&#8217;t promote the elimination of schools altogether.  Your comment says far more about your own ignorance than it does about libertarians.</p>
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		<title>By: damaged justice</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-332048</link>
		<dc:creator>damaged justice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-332048</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Why not eliminate schools altogether? I can’t think of too many things more inimical to libertarian ideals than forced government indoctrination.&lt;/i&gt;

So quit forcing people to attend them, dumbass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Why not eliminate schools altogether? I can’t think of too many things more inimical to libertarian ideals than forced government indoctrination.</i></p>
<p>So quit forcing people to attend them, dumbass.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-332025</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 10:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-332025</guid>
		<description>Why not eliminate schools altogether? I can&#039;t think of too many things more inimical to libertarian ideals than forced government indoctrination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not eliminate schools altogether? I can&#8217;t think of too many things more inimical to libertarian ideals than forced government indoctrination.</p>
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		<title>By: Doubts About Forensic Science &#171; Wintry Smile</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-331984</link>
		<dc:creator>Doubts About Forensic Science &#171; Wintry Smile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 05:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-331984</guid>
		<description>[...] a topic you&#8217;re interested in, The Agitator is probably the place to go.  August 2nd: He just posted about the article, and linked to a few more resources. Possibly related posts: (automatically [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a topic you&#8217;re interested in, The Agitator is probably the place to go.  August 2nd: He just posted about the article, and linked to a few more resources. Possibly related posts: (automatically [...]</p>
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		<title>By: qwints</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-331976</link>
		<dc:creator>qwints</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 04:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-331976</guid>
		<description>Quick search found this article: http://www.fd.org/Publications/SpecTop/fingerprintlawreview.pdf. 

Apparently latent fingerprint analysis is much less reliable than using fingerprints for identification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quick search found this article: <a href="http://www.fd.org/Publications/SpecTop/fingerprintlawreview.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.fd.org/Publications/SpecTop/fingerprintlawreview.pdf</a>. </p>
<p>Apparently latent fingerprint analysis is much less reliable than using fingerprints for identification.</p>
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		<title>By: qwints</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-331975</link>
		<dc:creator>qwints</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 04:51:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-331975</guid>
		<description>Didn&#039;t somebody recently bring a Daubert challenge against fingerprint analysis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t somebody recently bring a Daubert challenge against fingerprint analysis?</p>
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		<title>By: Cornellian</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-331933</link>
		<dc:creator>Cornellian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 02:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-331933</guid>
		<description>If I were going to revamp the whole curriculum I&#039;d eliminate pretty much everything that wasn&#039;t math (including statistics), history, English, science and civics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I were going to revamp the whole curriculum I&#8217;d eliminate pretty much everything that wasn&#8217;t math (including statistics), history, English, science and civics.</p>
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		<title>By: Helmut O' Hooligan</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-331931</link>
		<dc:creator>Helmut O' Hooligan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 01:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-331931</guid>
		<description>&quot;Forensic science, however, was not developed by scientists. It was created by cops—often guided by little more than common sense—looking for reliable ways to match patterns from clues with evidence tied to suspects&quot;

This looks like an interesting article, and I plan to check this story out.  Forensic science does need to be treated like other sciences. DNA and forensic biology meet this standard, in my opinion, while other techniques (bite marks, some arson techniques, etc.) don&#039;t measure up. However, I don&#039;t quite agree with this quote.

Forensic science techniques weren&#039;t cooked up in a police precinct over coffee and doughnuts.  These techniques have been studied and applied by people from all walks of life since ancient times.

Take fingerprints, for instance.  Fingerprints were used for business transactions in ancient Babylonia and China.  The uniqueness of friction ridge skin has been noted by anatomy professors, medical doctors, anthropologists (like Sir Francis Galton, cousin of Charles Darwin), magistrates, police and laymen alike.

In 1247, Tz&#039;u Sung wrote &quot;The Washing Away of Wrongs&quot; in China.  The book detailed early forensic medicine.  One popular passage describes the use of forensic entymology in a death investigation (blow flies were attracted to remaining blood and soft tissue on a sickle that was used in a murder).

Many influential forensic practitioners were never police officers.  Edmund Locard, who developed the Locard Exchange Principle (&quot;every contact leaves a trace,&quot; etc.) was a medical doctor who convinced the police in Lyon, France to set up a crime lab.  Paul Kirk, author of &quot;Crime Investigation&quot; (1953) and a participant in the Manhattan Project, had a Ph.D. in BioChemisry and specialized in Microscopy.  Barry A.J. Fisher, author of &quot;Techniques of Crime Scene Investigation&quot; and director of the Los Angeles County Sheriff&#039;s Department Crime Laboratory, has a MS in Chemistry and an MBA.  And even forensic scientists who were police officers, like Henry Lee, often perform investigations and provide testimony for the defense and the prosection.

I am all for a thorough examination of the field of forensic science and I believe major changes are warranted, but I just thought that quote was a misleading way to begin the discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Forensic science, however, was not developed by scientists. It was created by cops—often guided by little more than common sense—looking for reliable ways to match patterns from clues with evidence tied to suspects&#8221;</p>
<p>This looks like an interesting article, and I plan to check this story out.  Forensic science does need to be treated like other sciences. DNA and forensic biology meet this standard, in my opinion, while other techniques (bite marks, some arson techniques, etc.) don&#8217;t measure up. However, I don&#8217;t quite agree with this quote.</p>
<p>Forensic science techniques weren&#8217;t cooked up in a police precinct over coffee and doughnuts.  These techniques have been studied and applied by people from all walks of life since ancient times.</p>
<p>Take fingerprints, for instance.  Fingerprints were used for business transactions in ancient Babylonia and China.  The uniqueness of friction ridge skin has been noted by anatomy professors, medical doctors, anthropologists (like Sir Francis Galton, cousin of Charles Darwin), magistrates, police and laymen alike.</p>
<p>In 1247, Tz&#8217;u Sung wrote &#8220;The Washing Away of Wrongs&#8221; in China.  The book detailed early forensic medicine.  One popular passage describes the use of forensic entymology in a death investigation (blow flies were attracted to remaining blood and soft tissue on a sickle that was used in a murder).</p>
<p>Many influential forensic practitioners were never police officers.  Edmund Locard, who developed the Locard Exchange Principle (&#8220;every contact leaves a trace,&#8221; etc.) was a medical doctor who convinced the police in Lyon, France to set up a crime lab.  Paul Kirk, author of &#8220;Crime Investigation&#8221; (1953) and a participant in the Manhattan Project, had a Ph.D. in BioChemisry and specialized in Microscopy.  Barry A.J. Fisher, author of &#8220;Techniques of Crime Scene Investigation&#8221; and director of the Los Angeles County Sheriff&#8217;s Department Crime Laboratory, has a MS in Chemistry and an MBA.  And even forensic scientists who were police officers, like Henry Lee, often perform investigations and provide testimony for the defense and the prosection.</p>
<p>I am all for a thorough examination of the field of forensic science and I believe major changes are warranted, but I just thought that quote was a misleading way to begin the discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Les</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-331851</link>
		<dc:creator>Les</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 23:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-331851</guid>
		<description>Personally, I think besides reading, writing, and basic math (up to pre-algebra), everything should be an elective, with no electives necessary for graduation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I think besides reading, writing, and basic math (up to pre-algebra), everything should be an elective, with no electives necessary for graduation.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-331844</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 23:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-331844</guid>
		<description>I agree on statistics but I would not dump trigonometry.  

I would dump social studies, oh wait we also need American History.  And we can&#039;t dump P/E because kids are getting fat and lazy.  

Sorry kids you are losing a study period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree on statistics but I would not dump trigonometry.  </p>
<p>I would dump social studies, oh wait we also need American History.  And we can&#8217;t dump P/E because kids are getting fat and lazy.  </p>
<p>Sorry kids you are losing a study period.</p>
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		<title>By: Cornellian</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/08/02/popular-mechanics-on-the-flaws-in-forensic-science/comment-page-1/#comment-331836</link>
		<dc:creator>Cornellian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 22:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=14037#comment-331836</guid>
		<description>In my opinion, trigonometry should be dumped from the high school math curriculum and replaced with statistics.

Statistics so completely permeates all the information we receive today (including the information in this post) that I don&#039;t see how one can be an informed citizen without some basic knowledge of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion, trigonometry should be dumped from the high school math curriculum and replaced with statistics.</p>
<p>Statistics so completely permeates all the information we receive today (including the information in this post) that I don&#8217;t see how one can be an informed citizen without some basic knowledge of it.</p>
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