Guest blogging at Andrew Sullivan’s site, Conor Freidersdorf generously links to several pieces of my reporting in arguing that our attention shouldn’t be focused on the Gates arrest, but on more common and destructive police abuses.
Maryland man gets an $80 ticket for driving 58 in a 65. He says it was actually 58 in a 55.
The Economist has a nice piece applying the lessons of Gene Healy’s The Cult of the Presidency to the Obama administration.
While I’m plugging my friends’ books, the excerpt of Ryan Grim’s book This Is Your Country on Drugs that we ran in Reason is now available online.
Married Tennessee state senator who pushed ban on adoption by gay parents caught in sex scandal with smokin’ hot young intern. I blame gay….well, you know the drill. Taken together, comments three, four, and five are pretty funny.
The Oklahoma state trooper caught on video choking a paramedic has been given an unpaid five-day suspension. He should have been fired and prosecuted.
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on Friday, July 24th, 2009 at 9:33 am by Radley Balko
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TheAgitator.com
I call VERY irritated bullshit on the driving story. He’s yet another asshole who equates driving slowly with safe. Total. Crap.
Driving slowly increases speed differentials on high-speed highways. Those differentials create accidents more than speed. About goddamned time the cops stopped ticketing speeders as (a) revenue generation and (b) the lazy fucker’s way to traffic enforcement.
Pinheads who go too slowly on interstate-type highways are a bloody menace posing as holiere-than-thou do-gooders. I’m delighted he got a ticket.
gay marriage
is there anything it can’t do ?
The sex scandals are the only reason I occasionally question whether avoiding public office was one of my smarter decisions.
The Gates situation is another example of police over reaction.I cannot understand how so many minor or wrongful contacts with police end up with shootings,taseings,beatings and arrests.Many are children,women and old people.The Gates deal is about color,one is blue and the other isn’t
I too am amazed by the media attention given to the Gates case when so many more grievous cases of misconduct are completely ignored. I only heard about the case of Philadelphia Off. Lopez through this blog. Lopez was not only not prosectued, he is still on the job AFAIK. So are his fellow thugs who tried to destroy evidence and intimidate witnesses. Why the hell isn’t the MSM reporting on this obscenity?
“Unpaid suspension”! WE HAVE WON!
It’s not like the senator from TN ever wanted to ban banging smoking hot young interns.
I’m with seeker. The guy claims he’s a safe driver because he’s only going 58. Opposite is true. He’s just as dangerous as someone going 90 – the problem is the difference between his speed and the prevailing speed. The trooper did the right thing.
It’s funny, I just had the occasion to flip through the TN driver’s manual, and they really stress the point that 1) there’s a “lower speed limit” as well, and you can be ticketed for driving below it and 2) driving slower than the other traffic is dangerous, not safe. They, of course, don’t say it in a way that would suggest you break the speed limit, but they make it clear that you should go the prevailing speed. And they end the paragraph with the simple wisdom “if you don’t feel comfortable driving at a safe speed, use another road”.
That’s what this guy needs to do. He’s obviously not in a hurry, there’s no reason to use US 50.
Wow, that intern really is smokin’ hot. If I were a married woman I would totally ban my husband from hiring interns who looked like that.
Somebody’s confused about socialism (and it’s not the Republicans).
While I agree that people that go slow: a) are dangerous too and b) suck in general, it’s not like 7 under is that much. In TN it’s illegal to go more than 10 under on the Interstate or highway.
Is 7 under in Maryland really illegal? That’s ridiculous! I feel like that creates perverse incentives against braking.
The Gates arrest doesn’t help the cause at all. Gates was irritable and became an ass tossing out the race card as soon as the cop showed up on his doorstep. Instead of being able to use this to draw attention to the abuse of some cops (ala Mayor Calvo) most people are just blowing it off as “another overreaction” on the part of the professor.
BRAVO! I’m sick of hearing this junk about racial profiling… My eyeballs over the years know damn well that what happens to Blacks happens to all races… they just think it’s THEM. It’s not just them, it happens to all races… it’s just a fact that there is not a proper authority in place to check police abuse.
Having said that… I speculate with great sincerity that Gates was the real instigator in that fiasco and the officer probably did what was right. You can’t be disrepectful to authority and then expect to be treated with respect… NO MATTER WHAT COLOR YOU ARE…
a two way street of courtesy by police and civilians should be the goal.
Gates is a pretty big deal, when you get past the race issue.
A cop went into his home and arrested him for being lippy. Since he had probably cause there was no need for a warrant. Cops can and mostly likely lie for an excuse for probably cause. Taken together, Cambridge cops can walk into your house and arrest you if you complain.
Tokin,he may have been irritable and a ass but he was on his own property and had done nothing wrong.He has every right to be a ass in his own house.Plus,this need to shock and or arrest people because they offend a cop is getting out of hand.What ever happened to restraint and calming down a situation?
“Tokin,he may have been irritable and a ass but he was on his own property and had done nothing wrong.”
Bingo! Disorderly conduct within the confines
of one’s own house is, particulary within the context of a crime that never occurred, is not ilegal.
If I recall, the police report said that he came out onto the lawn – still obviously his property – but that’s why the cop made the arrest. He wasn’t being detained, so he didn’t need to go out there and keep yelling.
You can’t be disrepectful to authority and then expect to be treated with respect…
It’s not about respect. It’s about abuse of power. Being disrespectful is not an arrestable offense.
Robert,it’s he’s own damn property!!.I’m tired of people explaining away property rights .Once the cop knew he was the owner just leave,there are worse things then being yelled at by a old man.There is NO excuse for a so called well trained professional public servant to resort to an arrest to sooth his hurt feelings.As long as he had done nothing wrong,and he didn’t,HE is the boss on his property.
“A patrol spokesman said Trooper Daniel Martin was put on unpaid suspension Wednesday and must undergo an anger assessment.”
Who else thinks that the “anger assessment” will be carried out by a friendly supervisor and will show that the good officer has no problems controlling his emotions?
#7 Michael Chaney:
The guy claimed he was going 58 in a 55. He was asserting that he was speeding, not going to slow.
And really, going 58 in a 65 is just as dangerous as 90 in a 65? You’ve got to be kidding me.
Wow, I have got to go into politics. I want to be in a sex scandal with a smoking hot young intern like that.
the cop’s story makes no godammned sense: he thought there’s the possibility of it being a burglar, so he asks him to provide ID (this part is all reasonable). He then asks him to provide a second form of ID and when Gates asks for his name, he claims he can’t hear him properly and wants to speak to him outside, where he promptly arrests his for disturbing the peace for “yelling loudly” when a few moments earlier he claimed he couldn’t hear him inside. This was all about disrespecting authoritah and calling out the “racial profiling expert” on his own subject of expertise.
You’ll never be able to “prove” the racial component, but the cop should be suspended for baiting Gates, arresting him pointlessly, and then lying about it.
You two are making a big mistake – you’re conflating “speed limit” with “prevailing speed”. Two different beasts. I’m familiar with that stretch of highway, oddly enough. The speed limit bears no relevance, the prevailing speed is 70-75. He was going 15MPH or more *under* the prevailing speed, which makes him as dangerous as someone going 15MPH or more *over* the prevailing speed. His idiocy is the equivalent of going 90MPH through there.
The cop was right, and the guy needs to find another road before he causes an accident. And, yes, there are other roads that roughly shadow US 50 that he can take. Since he’s not in a hurry, he need not care about stop lights and such.
I wasn’t defending it, and I do think it was unnecessary. I was just pointing out that he wasn’t actually arrested in his house.
Once you’re outside, you are affecting the general public, and although unfortunate and a huge stretch in the case, a charge disorderly conduct is not a violation of your property rights.
Plus, he did warn the guy twice before arresting him. It’s a case of two assholes.
RE: Gates
I’m not suggesting the cop was totally in the right here but Gates is the one who was throwing a fit because a cop had the audacity to respond to a call of a possible burglary when the neighbor saw someone breaking in. Keep in mind the house had also been burglarized recently. He tried to show off his big-time education cred card which has no picture. When the cop was unwilling to just take his word for it he flipped out. Gates didn’t deserve an arrest but he was in no way an “innocent” and race had zero to do with it.
I call bullshit on your bullshit. If he was in fact in a 55, he was in fact speeding (not unreasonably so). Someone going 90 is a lot more dangerous in a 65 is a lot more dangerous than someone going 58. Even if he was in a 65, that is a pretty narrow window for being within the law as far as your speed is concerned. And the American shitty attitude towards driving (of which you are most definitely a part of with comments like that) is the most dangerous thing about driving in the US.
Obama stated (paraphrased) that this Gates incident would’ve been resolved if cooler heads had prevailed.
Gotsta call Obama naive on that count.
Cooler heads prevailing is not in the nature of a cop.
‘a two way street of courtesy by police and civilians should be the goal.’
dui checkpoints, speed traps, undercover cops, drug dogs, etc eliminate the possibility of a respectful interaction in most instances. I don’t give a damn about courtesy- these roving tax collectors aren’t treating citizens with any respect.
Wow, I’m surprised it got to comment #28 before anyone noticed that the Tennessee state senator is Paul Stanley.
I guess he wanted to show McKensie his Love Gun!
Man, what a country this would be if rock stars were our representatives. I would fucking rock and roll all night and party every day.
The minimum speed limit for most roads requiring a minimum in MD is 45mph. This guy is claming that he was going 58 in a 55 zone. If that’s the case he was going 3 mph over the speed limit.
Even if he was in the 65mph zone he’s not going that slow. So long as he’s in the right lane people shouldn’t be complaining that he’s going slow. Its called a speed Limit, you’re suppose to say under it, not over. If this guy had gotten a ticket for going 68 in a 65 zone some of you speeders would be complaining that he wasn’t going that fast to be a danger.
Hamburglar – care to explain yourself what the American attitude about driving is, and how it’s dangerous?
As a longtime reader of this site, I don’t have any outrage over the Gates ordeal because the behavior of the police is to be expected. Obviously, if you challenge the authority of a cop or ask for your rights to be spelled out, there is going to be a problem. Is this good, no, it sucks, of course. There really is no way to combat police abusing their authority other than to “aim and squeeze”, but that is no solution either.
I wish the President hadn’t commented on it at the press conference the other night, there have been plenty of other, more egregious abuses of police power since he’s taken office, but he hasn’t said anything about them, like a State Trooper choking an EMT on his way to the hospital with a sick patient in the back of the ambulance.
Until someone like Gates or the President sees what happened as bigger than an “isolated incident”, we’ll keep reading about them.
How the military (which cops like so much to compare themselves to) would handle something like this.
Reduction in rank, 45 days restriction, 45 days extra duty, 1/2 a month’s pay for two months.
That’s if he’s lucky and doesn’t get court martialed.
Interesting. So it’s illegal to drive above the speed limit, but it should also be illegal to drive below the “prevailing speed,” even if said speed is above the speed limit. Sounds like you have a sterling career in government waiting for you if you want it!
He claims he was going 58 in a 55; sounds like a hurry to me. But, hey, at least he has you to tell him what he needs to care about or not…
The most pressing issue with the Gates arrest is not race, but the fraudulent “disorderly conduct” charge. Unfortunately many people, including those who are unsympathetic to police abuse, are glossing over this issue because Gates was allegedly belligerent in dropping the race card (of even course this comes entirely from the word of the arresting officers, and we all know that police reports are always 100% honest and truthful).
But so what if Gates was belligerent? IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO BE RUDE TO A COP! It’s not the wisest thing to do either since cops are prone to violent retaliatory outbursts, but there is NOTHING illegal about being rude to a cop, arguing with a cop, or even insulting a cop to his face. The federal courts have actually held that it is even protected political speech to flip the bird at a cop.
Again, I’d never advise anyone to do it, but it is not illegal and Gates, even if he did the very worst that is alleged of him, did absolutely nothing illegal…but he was arrested anyway on a frivolous “disorderly conduct” charge on his own front porch. That false and frivolous arrest is the real issue here, and it proves that as far as the law is concerned Sergeant Crowley was absolutely 100% in the wrong. Period. End of story.
I personally don’t care how many racial sensitivity courses he’s taught or how many black basketball players Crowley performed CPR on 16 years ago. Those are red herrings tossed out to divert from the real issue that he falsely arrested an innocent man for allegedly being “uppity” to him. Any police officer who responds to a mild alleged insult about his “mama” by trumping up a completely false arrest charge is unfit to serve and should be immediately fired.
I agree re: prevailing speed.
Highway speed enforcement tends to be an area where (here in Canada, anyways) cops actually get their discretionary authority correct most of the time. There is generally a safe prevailing speed for a road tied into its designed (i.e. engineered) speed and the weather conditions; let’s name it the operational speed (OS) for now.
Highway cops here tend to ticket not the posted speed, but wild variance from the posted speed. This allows them to look the other way on traffic flow which is going faster than the posted speed but is at or near the OS, and thus the safest speed for those cars on that part of that roadway at that time. They tend to ticket those that “push it” by stepping outside the OS and well past the posted speed.
The point about speed that I think that I made and I wish to make again is that there is a persistent conflation between “slow” and “safe”; it’s a false notion.
I can recall a long conversation that I had about highway speed with a Mountie who’d spent about 11 years on traffic duty in western Canada. It was his opinion that “Jim and Edna out for the Sunday drive” (as he called excessively cautious drivers) caused as many accidents as aggressive drivers. The difference, he noted, is that aggressive drivers tend to be involved in the accidents that they cause but J&E cause accidents around them: sudden drops in speed because of being timourous, for example, upsetting traffic flows. They can have spotless driving records while having caused quite a few accidents.
I don’t care what the speed limit sign says; if every other driver in your lane ends up either passing you or puts on the brakes to avoid rear-ending you, you are creating a traffic hazard.
I guess I’m one of those under the limit drivers. I usually go between 55 and 60mph (depending on the speed limit); very rarely over 60. That’s a quite recent change for me, though; three years ago I was still making sure I was only the second fastest car in my vicinity. I slowed down because of gas prices, and currently I’m saving enough for three six-packs of Staropramen or Czechvar per month. And driving in the right lane, as one of the slower cars on the road, has been pretty safe for now; I haven’t see anyone having problems with me.
Anyone who equates driving slowly with safety has never driven on the autobahn.
And yes, he was on his own damn property. It wasn’t like he turned the water hose on the cop.
Mmmm, I have to say people who are screaming that Slow Is Unsafe -may- be overreacting. Was he in anything but the right lane? OK, he totally deserves it. Staying out of the way, different story. The problem isn’t so much deltas between fast and slow, but deltas between fast and slow coupled with poor (nonexistent) lane discipline. Here in the US, he could have been in any lane despite signage to the contrary.
That said, I admit I skimmed the comments and did note a couple that agree with this viewpoint, but what I didn’t see was anyone saying the PRINCIPLE of getting a ticket for a victimless (again, non) crime is total bullshit. Going 50, going 150, coked off ass – I don’t care if you can drive competently, stay out of my way, and don’t run me over. Pretty simple really.
Oh, and one more thing – the cop saw an opportunity. All tickets really are – except in a few cases where they actually ticket someone at fault in an accident (or that did something to cause one, e.g. swerve across traffic and some other folks dodge into each other or something) – is revenue. Nothing to do with safety which seems to be the big argument here.
#33 A company-grade Article 15? Don’t think so. He should be up in front of a general officer. IIRC a general can also order stockade time in addition. Loss of all stripes, 90 days confinement on basic rations, 90 days restrictions and 90 days extra duty after that, loss of all pay during confinement (and have it added to your ETS) loss of half pay for 3 months.
Then dare him to demand a court-martial.
Oklahoma is no longer a safe place to visit or travel through. Spend you money somewhere else and tell the tourism board why.
#41 Given the date, the trooper was probably trying to make quota.
And any cop here that says quotas don’t exist is a lying pig.
#34 That’s the way it has always worked.
Drive too fast, you’re speeding.
Drive too slow, you’re DUI.
Drive at the speed limit, you’re a drug courier.
It’s all probable cause.
There’s a guy that I get behind on a regular basis coming into work in the morning. He drives a big pickup. Very slowly. He’s easily 10 or more mph under the limit.
When he gets onto the highway, he generally is going about 45mph at the bottom of the ramp. You can not tell me that he’s safer than the guy doing 20mph over the speed limit.
I’m pretty sure he doesn’t drive any faster because he has problems seeing (you can see how thick his glasses are when passing). Personally I think he should not drive if he can’t maintain a reasonable speed. So ya, fark the guy getting the ticket for going too slow.
#39 This is Cambridge, where I suspect the “nigger’s got a gun” radio call would elicit the same response as it does in Prince George’s County, Maryland — and overwhelming show of force and a dead citizen.
Cops are a lot more polite where gun ownership is nearly universal, for some strange reason. Further evidence for gun ownership and the banning of ballistic vests for cops on duty.
As for the OK trooper, I predict that at some point an outraged citizen is going to drop a tree trunk from an overpass right into his windshield. Can’t say I’ll shed a tear when/if it happens.
#44 Frank
Absolutely true. Not that they need a reason to pull you over. They can come up with something, if they’re even pressed on the matter.
And driving in the right lane, as one of the slower cars on the road, has been pretty safe for now; I haven’t see anyone having problems with me.
If you’re driving slower than 99% of the cars on the road, you’re basically subtracting a lane on the road in your immediate vicinity. So a 4 lane (2 in each direction) effectivly becomes a single lane in one direction because every driver must go around you.
You don’t see the problems because you never see the brake lights when people have to slow down because they can’t immediatly get around you.
“If I recall, the police report said that he came out onto the lawn – still obviously his property – but that’s why the cop made the arrest.”
That’s an interesting observation, because the officer was actually trying to get Gates out onto the porch from the moment he arrived there. It was the very first question that Sergeant Crowley asked of Gates – will you step out on the porch? Gates refused.
This fact may be crucial to understanding the officer’s motives. If Crowley was actively trying to entice Gates out onto the porch because the law makes it easier to put someone under arrest outside, then it can be safely concluded that Gates’ misgivings were completely justified.
It speaks volumes that the initial argument started over Gates’ refusal to step outside at the officer’s request (which was his right to refuse) and ended when Gates finally did step outside, only to find himself in handcuffs by the same officer.
The way they pull you over is suspicious,
For something that just ain’t your fault.
Try to complain, they get vicious,
Kick in your teeth and charge you with assault.
The American Ruse by MC5
I don’t care if you’re driving 45 or 145: stay in the right-hand except to pass.
I think that all speed limits should be raised by 20 mph and actually enforced as speed limits. Speed limits generally seem to be regarded as recommended speeds, or something like that. If it is going to be called a speed limit, then that is what it should be treated as. It would be nice to actually know if you are going at a speed which will get you a ticket instead of having to guess.
Also, every interstate highway that I have seen posted minimum speeds has them at 45 mph.
#52 – I obviously disagree on the idea of enforcing the limit (other than, I should have brought up, sometimes speed limits are necessary for traffic flow reasons)(note, however, this does NOT include something like a school zone; see my previous argument for dire punishment if you do something stupid being the deterrent there), but the point I thought I’d make is that speed limits are generally set by this procedure:
1) Measure or estimate the 85th-percentile speed.
2) Set the limit 15-25 mph lower than that.
3) Rake in the dollars as generally people go around the 85th-percentile speed, for some strange reason.
Step 2 is definitely documented; I’ve read several articles that mentioned this arbitrary lowering for “safety” or “gas mileage” or what-have-you reasons.
on Gates:
The first time I read the story I was surprised to see that the officer didn’t use his Taser.
You missed:
Parked, you’re smoking something.
For those who think Gates was on his own property, please tell me, does he have to pay property tax? And if he does not, what happens to “his” property?
We’re all tenants in Amerika.
Cynical – anarchist fail. Get over yourself.
Fair enough, but the law cares about that sign. It seems several people here think if most people are breaking the law, you should be compelled to as well. I’d rather states eliminate speed limits completely than make motorists deal with this ridiculous catch-22.
That’s absolutely true.
But we want to argue about this as if it weren’t.
Well, Obama just threw Gates under the bus.
I’m eager to hear the police radio tapes though. Crowley has spoken several times in public over the last few days. Even if you agree with him the guy still comes across as an obnoxious unapologetic Masshole with an undeserved sense of self-righteousness. I suspect the tapes will record him angrily barking out orders in similar fashion.
The Angry Optimist – I don’t have the time (at the moment) to go into a whole diatribe about why the US attitude towards driving sucks and is dangerous (I am an American). But to wet your palette, all you really need to do to get a drivers license in any state is to take a test for a learners permit that anyone above borderline retarded can pass and then pass a driving test that is typically under 10 minutes long. There might be a 5 hour course in between or “drivers education” for younger drivers, but that is about it. And to change this system, to make it more difficult to get a license, would be viewed as an unacceptable inconvenience to most.
I think I’m going to go drive around on the highways around here at 58 mph just to piss off all of you “It’s my god given right to speed” types.
I would have thought you’d be up in arms because the guy was given a mickey mouse ticket when he was just exercising his liberty to drive at a speed he felt comfortable with. You know… with all of you being libertarians and all.
ahh, I see, too many “proles” are getting their licenses without living up to your personal standards. you sounds like a typical elitist.
The discussion about the ticket makes me think about the time I spend on I-95 outside of Philadelphia. The posted speed limit is 55 mph; the average speed is around 80 mph on many stretches. Does that mean that if I’m doing 70 I should be ticketed for exceeding the speed limit and not keeping up with the flow of traffic?
Radley, you never check any of my emails, so I post this here for your consideration (and laughter) … someone has finally one-upped Miss Teen South Carolina:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxe_kwc8klw
Bob:
Maybe if he wasn’t insisting he was automatically driving safely by being the slowest thing on the road.
I would have thought you’d be up in arms because the guy was given a mickey mouse ticket when he was just exercising his liberty to drive at a speed he felt comfortable with. You know… with all of you being libertarians and all.
I’m all for personal liberty as long as it doesn’t put the liberty, safety or health of other people in jeopardy. Driving significantly slower than the rest of traffic is dangerous to other drivers.
Hamburglar007-
To get a license in Maryland, you need 30 hours of driving school, 60 hours of driving time and another 6 hours with a driving instructor. In January the amount of driving time will be increased to 80 hours and the difficulty of the driving test will be significantly increased.
So wtf are you talking about?
Holy shit! In Alabama even doctors don’t get that much training.
In all fairness optimist, my personal standards as far as driving goes are pretty reasonable and nothing unique, and based on not wanting to kill or injure anyone or having the same happen to me. Also, your pretty much exemplify the shitty attitude in the US towards driving. Most European countries have a much higher standard to acquire a drivers license and having much lower accident and fatality rates.
Do you really think that the standard in most states is a reasonable one? Do you think the standards require an adequate amount of proficiency to drive safely? Next time try to answer with an argument as to why you think I am mistaken instead of throwing out baseless insults.
Josh: re MD license.
You also need to attend a drug and alcohol course in which they assert that microbrews are 55% alcohol and that even looking at a marijuana plant will send you insane. Usual drug war BS
At least, they used to.
I don’t know about Alabama, but based on Steven Hayne, I’d guess that forensic experts in Miss. requires only being able to sign your name and say “how high” when the prosecutor says jump.
@ SJE # 72
I believe that “have a pulse” and “still breathing” are also required. Having a perceptable electroencephalogram trace, however, is considered a limiting handicap.
#57 | The Angry Optimist — “Cynical – anarchist fail. Get over yourself.”
Dave Krueger approved of my post, which is high praise indeed.
Anytime you would like to refute my statement, Optimist, I’ll be here waiting. Until then, keep playing with yourself.
Again, libertarians failing to think in principle – why the fuck should we even HAVE driver’s licenses? GRRRR.
Pretty good discussion (compared to the usual) on our overlords the police (heroes).
Nice job the police (heroes) have. They can (and do!!) arrest anyone who pisses them off, insults them, inconveniences them, is rude, disrepectful, or in any way shape or form doesn’t completely kiss their ass.
I’d arrest about a dozen people a day if I had the same power.
I suspect the willingness of badge-lickers to grant the police (heroes) this power will really kick us in the ass someday.
The nice thing was seeing Obama dance between supporting blacks and towing the line to never disparage anything badge (heroes). It is impossible for him to lose any black votes, so I suspect he’ll snap back in line and lick the badge (heroes). After all, the cop (hero) is really the victim here.
Fuck. the. fucking. police.
That didn’t take long. I just saw the CNN report about Obama’s tug job on the cops (heroes) to make nicey-nice.
Unions are stronger than race, Gates.
OT, but within the scope of The Agitator…
Today I didn’t even have to wait to read Radley’s articles in order to have my day ruined.
Today’s copy of The Corpus Christi Caller-Times had a little teaser on the front page about hurricane information coming in Sunday’s issue. Included in the blurb: “…police have new authority to use force when issuing evacuation orders.”
WTF? You just know this is going to turn out well.
Tim C,
I’m not a libertarian, but libertarianism != being able to do whatever you want. I do believe in a more limited government, but recognize the government does serve some important functions, and I would consider making sure that someone driving a 2 ton vehicle has some idea what the hell they are doing.
Thankfully, cops happen to be incredibly lazy, so one a day is probably about all they can manage.
It wasn’t a baseless insult: it was true. you act like a typical elitist. Look at the rate of accidents / total miles driven for any given year, and you’ll find it’s tiny, tiny, tiny ratio. Yet, you still think there’s a problem, probably because (as I said) people aren’t driving how you want them to.
speeding is a complex issue- a corvette doing 80mph is able to stop quicker than a 3/4 ton pickup pulling a bobcat that’s driving 50mph. yet, they’re forced to drive the same speed. arbitrary speed limits are nonsense and have nothing to do with safety. they’re methods to raise revenue. people need to drive appropriate to conditions and traffic.
the licensing is interesting. if people demand ‘credentials’ or ‘proof of insurance’ for people to drive on public roads, it seems like insurance companies should provide the licensing. if they’re willing to back you and you abide by the terms of the contract, you drive. it seems like that would eliminate age issues (if a company wants to insure 14 year olds, have at it or elderly people could be required to submit to physicals…).
I’m just thinking out loud after reading the post pointing out (correctly, I feel) that we shouldn’t be required by the govt to even have licenses or identification.
O.K… I stand corrected…
RE: Gates incident
Here is a portion of a comment I pulled the local newspaper:
“As a former police officer in WV and as a current federal agent…With over 22 years of law enforcement experience 1) I won’t “Monday morning quarterback” and second guess the actions of an officer who responded to a call and was met with obvious hostility. 2) Gates stated to the media “he didn’t like it because a black man got all up in his face”. 3) Obama’s Rev. Wright’s hatred of whites reared it ugly head. Regardless of race, gender, religion or sexual orientation if you choose to “get all up” in my face or any other law enforcement officer who is lawfully executing their duties under the color of the law SHAME ON YOU. The officer also stated he asked Gates to step outside so he could check the house and make sure there were no intruders. But no. The white officer was damned for protecting and serving.”
Any of that sound familliar?
Sgt. Crowley did not belong in that house. He belonged at the doorway, unless and until Gates refused to provide id.
A 911 call is not a freebie home search for the cops. There has to be more than that. There has to be probable cause.
‘A 911 call is not a freebie home search for the cops. There has to be more than that. There has to be probable cause.’
I’m not disagreeing with you, but in practice that’s not how it works.
I would consider making sure that someone driving a 2 ton vehicle has some idea what the hell they are doing.
That doesn’t require a license or government at all. As Marty mentioned, insurance companies could handle this. So there you go -a simple free-market solution.
Now if we could just get the government completely out of the transportation industry…
#82:
Bigot!
In my experience while driving near Indianapolis…..When I told the officer I was driving 63 in a 55, he told me “the speed limit is 55″. Now consider it was while driving 465 around Indianapolis. If I was to run 55 as the “officer” said, I would be going slower than 99% of the traffic. And I would not be traveling at the “prevailing” speed 65-70) as suggested by many of the posters. But, the cop is always right!
I got it for 75 in a 55, where the speed limit signs were very difficult to see, just coming into the I-70 I-465 exchange. But, the cop told me to run 55 when the sign said 55! They can get you whenever they want!
The insurance companies can handle this? What would be required of the insurance company, and who would require it?
#89 That is why you never say anything to the cop. You confessed to a “crime”, he was probably taping you.
#83 Marty:
Brilliant. I can’t wait for Libertopia to get here so I don’t have to carry an ID or license of any kind… and my Insurance company, with whom I have a perfect record (Because I identify myself as ‘John Doe’ whenever the local cops stop me..) charges me super low rates. In fact, I’ll start my OWN insurance company… “Gekko” (Get it? LOL! I crack myself up!) that not only does not require you to carry ID, but will send you a selection of fake ones and will swear in court that you have never filed a claim. ALL the leadfoots will want a policy from me.
Rogue Medic has an update in the OK EMT hater. Apparently the emergency that required Daniel Martin to turn on his lights and for everyone to pull over was that he was taxying his wife around.
There’s been a lot of talk about the speed issue, but nobody has backed up their claims with anything except anecdotes and opinions.
Allow me to correct that.
– NMMA FAQ
And many more documented references, studies and quantifiable information on their Does Speed Kill? page.
“If I was to run 55 as the “officer” said, I would be going slower than 99% of the traffic.”
It’s a giant joke…traffic flow is safest (leaving out lane discipline aspect for now) speed…I went to court recently (to get fine reduced/traffic school option)(got nailed after accelerating my way past a bunch of cars battling each other for position, shot myself down basically – though I was doing what I was doing to keep myself clear of the melee – in other words being in control of the situation and thus safer) and was talking to a guy that got pulled over as someone else sped ahead (guy was going 80, flow of traffic, other car had passed him at ~100, when cop showed up he thought surely the cop was going for the other guy)! The cop claimed he didn’t see that person! Some cop!
Hell, for that matter – how many cops can drive? I got pulled over in Bend, OR, snowy/icy morning (on way to skiing). I was in 4wd (i.e, older, actual 4wd, even had rare limited-slip diff on rear) Sube, had passed basically everybody for the last couple of hours (pulling out to pass in really cruddy stuff in median while everyone wussed out). This was totally safe as a) I know what I’m doing and b) that car had really good traction – narrow tires, great for the conditions. I failed to see change to 45 mph coming into town. Cop: “I almost looped it coming after you.” Me: “Maybe you should be able to drive better if you’re a cop.” No, I didn’t reply this to his face!
“a corvette doing 80mph is able to stop quicker than a 3/4 ton pickup pulling a bobcat that’s driving 50mph. yet, they’re forced to drive the same speed.”
No doubt. I ride a motorcycle and speed limits there are just stupid. 20 over on a bike is nothing.
Oops – by “median” I mean “passing lane” – not -that- nuts! Basically picture road with some ice/snow/slush in the driving lane, and unused passing lane more coated in that stuff. The passing lane can thus be used if you’re verrry gentle about it.
Whether or not it should be legal to drive a on an Interstate if one cannot safely travel with the prevailing speed, the posted minimum speed is generally 45mph, which would imply that if one can safely drive at least 45mph one is permitted to use the road. The fact that vehicles driving at slower speeds seem to be involved in a disproportionate number of accidents does not necessarily imply that slower speeds are more dangerous. It could also imply that vehicles or individuals which could not drive safely at prevailing speeds aren’t terribly safe at slower speeds either. Whether the level of danger they pose is sufficient that they shouldn’t be allowed on interstates is irrelevant to the fact that, under present rules, they are allowed.