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	<title>Comments on: Eyewitness Testimony Under Fire</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: Randy Bean</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-260321</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Bean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=12745#comment-260321</guid>
		<description>My own anecdotal experiences back up the claims of the article.  Luckily, the events were not related to any criminal or police activity.

One day, many years ago, I went to the admin offices of the local community college to get a copy of my transcript.  The woman that assisted me didn&#039;t ask for my name.  While I thought it odd, I chalked it up to either the fact that it was a small campus or perhaps she shopped at the grocery store where I worked part-time.

She came back moments later with another man&#039;s transcript, a guy (let&#039;s call him Gary) that was in my graduating class in high school.  

A few months after this mix-up, I was in line at a fast food joint near a university campus when a female student gave me a big hug from behind while saying a hearty &quot;Gary!&quot; as she did so.  Once she saw me from the front, she realized I wasn&#039;t Gary.  

Now Gary and I did share some physical characteristics with one another, but if you put us side by side, you would note a lot differences too.  

Two points --

1)  People can mis-identify people they know, and sometimes it&#039;s people they know well.

2)  If &quot;Gary&quot; ever commits a crime, I&#039;m screwed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My own anecdotal experiences back up the claims of the article.  Luckily, the events were not related to any criminal or police activity.</p>
<p>One day, many years ago, I went to the admin offices of the local community college to get a copy of my transcript.  The woman that assisted me didn&#8217;t ask for my name.  While I thought it odd, I chalked it up to either the fact that it was a small campus or perhaps she shopped at the grocery store where I worked part-time.</p>
<p>She came back moments later with another man&#8217;s transcript, a guy (let&#8217;s call him Gary) that was in my graduating class in high school.  </p>
<p>A few months after this mix-up, I was in line at a fast food joint near a university campus when a female student gave me a big hug from behind while saying a hearty &#8220;Gary!&#8221; as she did so.  Once she saw me from the front, she realized I wasn&#8217;t Gary.  </p>
<p>Now Gary and I did share some physical characteristics with one another, but if you put us side by side, you would note a lot differences too.  </p>
<p>Two points &#8211;</p>
<p>1)  People can mis-identify people they know, and sometimes it&#8217;s people they know well.</p>
<p>2)  If &#8220;Gary&#8221; ever commits a crime, I&#8217;m screwed.</p>
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		<title>By: ClubMedSux</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-260287</link>
		<dc:creator>ClubMedSux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 15:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=12745#comment-260287</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve probably made this comment before, but in my experience at the Center on Wrongful Convictions, I observed that the greatest source of error when it comes to the trier of fact (be it a judge or a jury) is what we consider common sense.  We have intuitive notions of what should be believable, how people should behave in certain situations, etc., and it&#039;s very hard to overcome those notions.  People are convicted because nobody would act that way if they were innocent.  Nobody would confess to a crime they didn&#039;t commit.  An eyewitness would never forget the face of somebody who hurt them.  A cop would have no reason to lie.

Thank God for the development of forensic science.  It&#039;s still far from perfect, but it goes a long way toward removing the armchair psychology that takes place in the jury deliberation room.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve probably made this comment before, but in my experience at the Center on Wrongful Convictions, I observed that the greatest source of error when it comes to the trier of fact (be it a judge or a jury) is what we consider common sense.  We have intuitive notions of what should be believable, how people should behave in certain situations, etc., and it&#8217;s very hard to overcome those notions.  People are convicted because nobody would act that way if they were innocent.  Nobody would confess to a crime they didn&#8217;t commit.  An eyewitness would never forget the face of somebody who hurt them.  A cop would have no reason to lie.</p>
<p>Thank God for the development of forensic science.  It&#8217;s still far from perfect, but it goes a long way toward removing the armchair psychology that takes place in the jury deliberation room.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-260281</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 15:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=12745#comment-260281</guid>
		<description>After reading the above link, I have a couple of questions and comments.

Why has this changed for a prostitution case to a drug case?  
Why is the &quot;Narco&quot; squad involved if they were looking for prostitutes?  It still sounds a little fishy to me. The story has changed.

No doubt the kid sounded like a brat, as alleged in the police reports.  Any, aggressive, behavior after she got to her father, was uncalled for. She does, allegedly, need to learn a little about lawful behavior.  I suspect, with that attitude, she is headed for many other &quot;run-ins&quot; with the cops.  I do not condone her, alleged, behavior, either.  But, she was a, kicking , screaming, 12 year old girl!  Probably, one of the most fearsome adversaries, of any male, on the planet!  She could not even listen to her parents&#039; commands.  That should tell us something.

I guess that is why it ended with a hung jury.  It all seems fishy! Surely they can&#039;t expect the jury to believe the cops word as gospel!  I think, it is well past those days in our society!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading the above link, I have a couple of questions and comments.</p>
<p>Why has this changed for a prostitution case to a drug case?<br />
Why is the &#8220;Narco&#8221; squad involved if they were looking for prostitutes?  It still sounds a little fishy to me. The story has changed.</p>
<p>No doubt the kid sounded like a brat, as alleged in the police reports.  Any, aggressive, behavior after she got to her father, was uncalled for. She does, allegedly, need to learn a little about lawful behavior.  I suspect, with that attitude, she is headed for many other &#8220;run-ins&#8221; with the cops.  I do not condone her, alleged, behavior, either.  But, she was a, kicking , screaming, 12 year old girl!  Probably, one of the most fearsome adversaries, of any male, on the planet!  She could not even listen to her parents&#8217; commands.  That should tell us something.</p>
<p>I guess that is why it ended with a hung jury.  It all seems fishy! Surely they can&#8217;t expect the jury to believe the cops word as gospel!  I think, it is well past those days in our society!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Chaney</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-260063</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Chaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 04:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=12745#comment-260063</guid>
		<description>Threadjack:

Remember Dymond Milburn, the 12-year-old that was arrested after beating up four cops in Galveston?  The same geniuses who claimed she was a white prostitute?  Her second trial has again ended in a hung jury, in February.  I don&#039;t think it was here.

A friend emailed a link to me:
http://policenewsonline.com/default.aspx?act=newsletter.aspx&amp;category=News%201-2&amp;Startrow=14&amp;MenuGroup=Home&amp;NewsletterID=12137&amp;

That includes the original police report.  Not surprisingly, their version differs substantially, but apparently someone who lives down the street claims that her father was dealing drugs out of the house, using the kids to deliver the goods.  He called the police when he saw it (this was when the parents say she was flipping the breaker) and the van happened to be there.  He showed up in court and, from reports I&#039;ve read, didn&#039;t help the prosecution much.  Anyway, that&#039;s the cops&#039; story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Threadjack:</p>
<p>Remember Dymond Milburn, the 12-year-old that was arrested after beating up four cops in Galveston?  The same geniuses who claimed she was a white prostitute?  Her second trial has again ended in a hung jury, in February.  I don&#8217;t think it was here.</p>
<p>A friend emailed a link to me:<br />
<a href="http://policenewsonline.com/default.aspx?act=newsletter.aspx&#038;category=News%201-2&#038;Startrow=14&#038;MenuGroup=Home&#038;NewsletterID=12137&#038;amp" rel="nofollow">http://policenewsonline.com/default.aspx?act=newsletter.aspx&#038;category=News%201-2&#038;Startrow=14&#038;MenuGroup=Home&#038;NewsletterID=12137&#038;amp</a>;</p>
<p>That includes the original police report.  Not surprisingly, their version differs substantially, but apparently someone who lives down the street claims that her father was dealing drugs out of the house, using the kids to deliver the goods.  He called the police when he saw it (this was when the parents say she was flipping the breaker) and the van happened to be there.  He showed up in court and, from reports I&#8217;ve read, didn&#8217;t help the prosecution much.  Anyway, that&#8217;s the cops&#8217; story.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisD</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-260056</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 04:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=12745#comment-260056</guid>
		<description>BamBam, 

Isn&#039;t that covered in &quot;provided the samples are handled correctly?&quot;

Non-contaminated DNA allows the measurement of allele frequencies and their comparison to the general population/suspect. Unless deliberately corrupted it&#039;s pretty precise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BamBam, </p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that covered in &#8220;provided the samples are handled correctly?&#8221;</p>
<p>Non-contaminated DNA allows the measurement of allele frequencies and their comparison to the general population/suspect. Unless deliberately corrupted it&#8217;s pretty precise.</p>
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		<title>By: BamBam</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-260002</link>
		<dc:creator>BamBam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 00:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=12745#comment-260002</guid>
		<description>Your article falsely claims &quot;Provided the samples are handled correctly, a positive test on hair, blood, semen, or other biological evidence can conclusively put a suspect at a crime scene.&quot;

As you know, results of DNA testing are only as good as the testing facility&#039;s procedures, training, and a disconnect from the legal system and its representatives (prosecutors and cops) to be as unbiased as possible.  Even under the best conditions, DNA testing is not a perfect science and can result in false positives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your article falsely claims &#8220;Provided the samples are handled correctly, a positive test on hair, blood, semen, or other biological evidence can conclusively put a suspect at a crime scene.&#8221;</p>
<p>As you know, results of DNA testing are only as good as the testing facility&#8217;s procedures, training, and a disconnect from the legal system and its representatives (prosecutors and cops) to be as unbiased as possible.  Even under the best conditions, DNA testing is not a perfect science and can result in false positives.</p>
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		<title>By: BamBam</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-259992</link>
		<dc:creator>BamBam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 23:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=12745#comment-259992</guid>
		<description>Another area of testimony that is flawed is &quot;X people say something which paints a picture of a &#039;crime&#039;; if X &gt; threshold for innocence, then you are guilty so no investigation is necessary&quot;.  Threshold is set by the cop, so place your bets on that value being &gt; 1.  People accuse, there is no investigation, therefore no evidence to prove guilt other than what people say, you say nothing because that is your right, and you get arrested and have trouble created in your life with no recourse for retribution.  As for the perpetrators of the false statements, the police dare not arrest them for making false statements, because that would mean the cops wronged you, and we can&#039;t have cops admitting (directly or indirectly) that they wronged you, lest they be sued.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another area of testimony that is flawed is &#8220;X people say something which paints a picture of a &#8216;crime&#8217;; if X &gt; threshold for innocence, then you are guilty so no investigation is necessary&#8221;.  Threshold is set by the cop, so place your bets on that value being &gt; 1.  People accuse, there is no investigation, therefore no evidence to prove guilt other than what people say, you say nothing because that is your right, and you get arrested and have trouble created in your life with no recourse for retribution.  As for the perpetrators of the false statements, the police dare not arrest them for making false statements, because that would mean the cops wronged you, and we can&#8217;t have cops admitting (directly or indirectly) that they wronged you, lest they be sued.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Krueger</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-259985</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Krueger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 23:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=12745#comment-259985</guid>
		<description>Ever since I was a kid, I&#039;ve had a hard time remembering what people looked like.  I liked reading crime stories and seeing detective shows on TV, so I actually thought I was different from other people because I would never be able to remember the stuff people in those stories remembered.  I hoped I would never witness a crime so I wouldn&#039;t be embarrassed by not being able to remember what the bad guys looked like.  That may sound funny, but I am serious.

Fortunately, I have never been put to the test, but suppose I had.  I wonder how much pressure it would have taken to convince me to choose someone from a picture line-up even if I wasn&#039;t sure.  Back then I was steeped in the mythology that the police always do the right thing.  

Pretty scary.  I bet it happens all the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ever since I was a kid, I&#8217;ve had a hard time remembering what people looked like.  I liked reading crime stories and seeing detective shows on TV, so I actually thought I was different from other people because I would never be able to remember the stuff people in those stories remembered.  I hoped I would never witness a crime so I wouldn&#8217;t be embarrassed by not being able to remember what the bad guys looked like.  That may sound funny, but I am serious.</p>
<p>Fortunately, I have never been put to the test, but suppose I had.  I wonder how much pressure it would have taken to convince me to choose someone from a picture line-up even if I wasn&#8217;t sure.  Back then I was steeped in the mythology that the police always do the right thing.  </p>
<p>Pretty scary.  I bet it happens all the time.</p>
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		<title>By: chance</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/04/08/eyewitness-testimony-under-fire/comment-page-1/#comment-259969</link>
		<dc:creator>chance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=12745#comment-259969</guid>
		<description>Hm.  Not only could bad eyewitness IDs put away the innocent, I wonder how many have given actual perpetrators an alibi?  I guess that&#039;s part of what you are getting at.  

One problem is that there are few things more sincere and convincing to the average person than a credible eyewitness.  I believe most people don&#039;t realize that our eyes and brain just don&#039;t work like a video camera, recording details accurately, as you indicated in links and your article.  Our brains actively fill in details about what we think should have been there, even if it wasn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hm.  Not only could bad eyewitness IDs put away the innocent, I wonder how many have given actual perpetrators an alibi?  I guess that&#8217;s part of what you are getting at.  </p>
<p>One problem is that there are few things more sincere and convincing to the average person than a credible eyewitness.  I believe most people don&#8217;t realize that our eyes and brain just don&#8217;t work like a video camera, recording details accurately, as you indicated in links and your article.  Our brains actively fill in details about what we think should have been there, even if it wasn&#8217;t.</p>
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