TheAgitator.com
Legalization Debate
Monday, March 30th, 2009I have to say, the video below is really encouraging. Former DEA chief Asa Hutchinson is the only person on CNBC’s (oddly enormous) panel arguing against legalization. These aren’t stoners or activists. They’re financial reporters and pundits. And they seem to be uniformly in favor of legalizing. This debate has come a long, long, way since the 1980s.
Did you forget to preface this with “You’re about to enter the Twilight Zone”?
This country hasn’t had a real conversation on drug policy in the 30 years I’ve been on this planet. It’s almost as if I’m in another dimension. And no, I’m not under the influence of any illegal or legal drug in writing this (just in case those men-in-black-with-mp5s are reading).
Rob totally destroyed Asa Hutchinson’s arguments on the health issues, and the others stomped all over him on the economics front. That was great! All he could do was sit there grinning like an idiot.
What struck me was towards the end when they framed the debate around economics vs morality. The unquestioned assumption was that “morality” demanded that we try to reduce pot use. I wanted someone to argue that the personal freedom to engage in harmless recreation is the true moral high ground. As if potential tax revenue was the only reason to stop wasting resources and ruining innocent lives. :(
but all things considered, that was a refreshing and bizarre sight to see on a major cable network.
After the discussion the panel played Hollywood Squares.
“I’ll take Asa Hutchinson for the block.”
@XI: Yes I agree very much. Not only should we not be trying to legislate morality, but there is absolutely no reason to consider marijuana use to be a moral shortcoming (especially when compared to alcohol).
Great video though. Glimpses of truth in this issue are starting to pop up every now and then in the media.
I have a hard time imagining any legalization of drugs considering how our busy-body politicians are trying to outlaw the smoking of cigarettes. Sorry, don’t mean to be a downer. All the panelists and discussions in the world mean nothing unless the lawmakers are on board. There are so many special interest groups making money off of the drug war lobbying for it’s continuation. I think that kind of corruption needs to be discussed more often in order to reduce their influence over policy makers.
The two cases of reefer-madness I’ve seen have only been the government and people that don’t smoke pot.
Hutchinson: “The objective of society is to reduce the use of harmful drugs.”
Really?
Hutchinson: “To save teenage lives.”
There are so many reasons to hate teenagers! It’s like outlawing steak because babies don’t have teeth.
I hate, but understand, the premise to legalize and tax pot (I hate the tax part). Please give me a right you had no right to take away and I’ll give you even more money to allow me to have this right. Bah!
I’ll stick to my guns (figurative) and say it should be legal because it is none of your damn business. End of discussion, Asa!
Here is a idea I had this weekend.
The best way for the discussion to actually start on this is how ‘That One’ answered the question.
If he had explicitly backed it or even acted like he thinks the idea warrants consideration, the Republicans would have flipped out and immediately been against it.
I don’t even have to watch this to know it’s bullshit.
Considering the potential harm to innocents, there’s no way we can in good conscience allow marijuana to be legal. I understand that some can use it responsibly, and I understand some leaders can be trusted to use nuclear weapons responsibly — but that doesn’t mean we should give every leader in the world a nuclear weapon.
Except marijuana is not in any way as harmful as a nuclear weapon. It’s more like an airsoft gun.
Holy fucking shit, did someone just compare Marijuana to Nuclear Weapons?!??!?
“Potential Harm to innocents?” No one has ever died from Marijuana, thousands of people have died from Marijuana prohibition – not to mention other costs like over-policed communities, jailed fathers etc.
How do you explain that the “harm to innocents issue” actually comes down in favor of prohibition? Oh, yeah that’s right, you’re the idiot who just compared marijuana to nukes.
#10, is that a joke? in case it’s not…
Nuclear weapons?!?!?!?!?!
There are so many holes in this garbage argument. For a start, a “leader” holding a joint doesn’t kill people by the millions no matter how many times he smokes it. Second of all, nobody is saying “give every leader weed”. People are saying “let people, who want to smoke, smoke.”
Try this out. The metaphor is closer to the reality…
and I understand some leaders can be trusted to use cough syrup — but that doesn’t mean we should give every adult in the world cough syrup.
Because cough syrup kills many many more people every year than marijuana. freaking jerk
in case it is a joke…
Watch the video. You’ll be surprised.
I hope that’s sarcasm.
In summary, the amount of harm caused (world wide, not just in the USA) by the prohibition of marijuana is far greater than the harm the substance itself would cause if legalized.
If you’re not familiar with the particulars, stick around and I’m sure you’ll be filled in very quickly.
Meh,
I took the trollbait.
http://www.theagitator.com/2009/03/13/unarmed-grand-rapids-student-shot-in-drug-raid-identified/#comment-250794
Hutchinson was right about one thing; there is still broad popular support for the drug war. Until a candidate for national office, or the governorship of a key electoral state, wins a campaign despite openness to legalization, the debate won’t really fundamentally change.
Look, we aren’t going to change Adamski’s mind here. If he sreally holds this ridiculous opinion that drug users pose this tremendous risk to society and that they’ll kill us all in a blind rage of reefer madness, there is nothing we can say to prove him wrong in his mind. Just like you can’t convice a terrorist they are wrong for murdering innocents. He has a hundred stupid excuses that only make sense to him and no one else. Just ignore his ass, keep the comments constructive instead of ganging up on him, and let’s avoid preaching to the collective choir here.
asg is right. Unless the majority of policymakers can feel assured that their main priority (reelection) will be taken care of, they have no incentive to support legalization. Zero. Opposing the drug war is a politically high risk, low reward practice, so 1 Asa Hutchison will be worth 100 medical or financial experts for many years to come.
#16. I diagree, I think free exchange of ideas means pointing out ideas that are skull-crushingly idiotic, and in no subtle terms.
People with god-awful ideas and even worse reasoning probably shouldn’t be engaged in “constructive ways” because they are so unlikely to change their views. Their views should be viciously attacked to drive the point home, and their intellects can/should be judged as lacking. Sadly they are going to be part of the debate and it’s worth trying to persuade them. “I see what you’re saying but I disagree…” does not seem likely to get that job done.
I think Mattocracy is more encouraging us to talk about the video, which was awesome instead of concentrating on the troll. Not even the Drug Czar would make a comment that dumb. Old boy is a troll who doesn’t believe what he wrote just to get a rise out of us. I wish I hadn’t talked to him.
I really enjoyed watching Asa get his position squarshed. Unfortunantly, this is a reminder to the drug warriors that debating on a fair playing field is a recipe for failure. They have no legs to stand on.
“The salty snack business.” A-men!
Oops, meant to add a link – this place is GREAT. http://www.chebahut.com/
And, aha, the guy that says that alcohol and tobacco are vested interests is great (I’ve long contended that timber/cotton industries have very big interest/lobbying in keeping hemp unused in paper and clothing, two applications where it is actually superior, but it somehow didn’t occur to me that companies in the pleasure industry are simililarly vested).
There is no longer even a “good faith” argument for marijuana prohibition. If some is opposed they are either evil or ignorant. Ignorant can be educated, evil (usually in the form of bought and paid for by some interest) is not worth your time.
Wow, terrible typing today.
some = someone
#22 Don’t forget the pharmaceutical companies and the prison lobbyists. I think Mr. Kampia is wrong that the lobbying interests aren’t strong against MJ legalization. They just haven’t been focused on that issue because no one has ever cared. Once the debate becomes serious, you will see big pharm and big prison spending money like there’s no tomorrow to keep it illegal.
I’m really frustrated by people laughing about marijuana. Press Sec. Gibbs press latest briefing on the issue was the only thing more insulting than Obama’s answer on the issue. As radley pointed out, this issue touches upon countless stories of human misery and death, and laughing about stoners and the munchies, while completely understandable and appropriate for movies or south park episodes, should not be tolerated in a policy debate about prohibition.
When I talk to someone about legalization of pot and they come up with the ‘I don’t want my kids to have access to pot’, I reply “thanks for supporting legalization”. That usually throws them off enough that they actually listen when I tell them that the best way to make sure that their kids do not have access to pot is to get the selling of it out of the hands of criminals.
Have not had one single person argue the point after that.
How can the former DEA guy get away with, the comment about health care professionals opposing legalization. I’m a “health care professional” and I think it should be legalized. I’ve met lots of others who are of the same mind or even smoke it. I can see where our local community may not like it since we have a large state owned drug rehab. boot camp, who is a big employer.
That was a pretty damn good video, Radley. Thanks a lot. I kind of felt the same way as Colson (#1). Another dimension indeed.
I understand why some commenters are hesitant to get too excited, and I am always prepared for the worst myself. But think about it this way. Asa Hutchinson is probably the most sober (no pun intended) and rational drug warrior the anti-drug crowd had to offer for this interview. That’s all they have left. The “morality” argument and the “save the children” argument. And as one of the panelists noted, people aren’t really buying it anymore. When marijuana is discussed like other products (beer, tobacco, corn, wheat, etc.) the drug warrior’s argument falls apart.
I tell you what, between this video, and Jim Webb’s article in PARADE MAGAZINE (a known radical periodical, of course) this weekend, I have been feeling pretty optimistic. This kind of thing is enough to give me a big civil libertarian chubby! Ok, that was an exaggeration, sorry about that. But I was still really pleased.
@ Dr Adamski Post #10:
I had a long post typed up about being an adult child of an alcoholic and how it affected me as I grew up and as an adult.
Assuming you’re not a troll, I’l sum up what I had to say. Chronic alcohol use effects the brain in ways that chroic marijuana usage does not. Alcoholics, in my opinion, lose themself in the drink. Stoners tend, in my observations, to have a strong sense of self in spite of the smoke.
Call it what you will but here’s a fact: We can not have an intelligent discussion of marijuana policy without solid data on it’s short- and long-term side effects. This study is precluded due to it’s classification by the government.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. At least the government allows the study of nuclear bombs.
Notice how hutchinson keeps saying METHAMPHETAMINE AND COCAINE after every point of the debate…METHAMPHETAMINE AND COCAINE
“But how do you feel about…”
METHAMPHETAMINE AND COCAINE METHAMPHETAMINE AND COCAINE BWAAAGGGHHPKAGEjsd’jsf’vdskhffas DANGEROUS DRUGS!
Another thing to keep in mind when talking about the residual damage of keeping MJ illegal is the loss of industrial hemp production. Because it’s like, you know, hard for the DEA to tell the difference
Its one of the most “eco-friendly” plants to grow in terms of pesticide/fertilizer use, as well as down stream processing. There are tons of uses. Hemp can grow well in marginal soil and doesn’t need much water, it could also help in certain crop rotations to maximize efficiency and limit energy use. We’re pissing billions more down the drain by banning industrial hemp growing.
That is because:
1. Now they want to tax it.
2. Asa is a lobbyist for the drug cartels. He is not getting the job done.
Obama Admin has dropped the word “WAR” from the War on Terrorisim….
Must deem anything so name as totally unwinable!
Accurate though.
Nick T-”Holy fucking shit, did someone just compare Marijuana to Nuclear Weapons?!??!?”
He’s “taking the piss” as they say in England. He’s not serious, its just a wind up to get an angry and passionate response from everyone. He’s doing a good job of it too and often riles up some of you to write some of your best stuff!
#26 “Don’t forget the pharmaceutical companies and the prison lobbyists.” Ohhhh yeah, many other vested interests too:
Drug testing companies (i.e, places you pee, not companies using same)
Insurance companies (can charge companies that don’t DT higher insurance)
Of course, the gov’t, look at all the extra power to snoop/run people’s lives/get free “forfeited” shit, etc
So, you’re right, I only hit a couple of ‘em…how many others?
“…illegal simply due to inertia”
so true.
I’ve seen Rob speak before on some other talking heads programs and he is a great representative for this cause. He keeps his cool much better than most in the face of such idiotic logic and scare tactics.
I don’t trust anyone who smiles perpetually whenever he talks. Hutchinson would be smiling when he told you he ran over your puppy.
It was way easier for me to get pot than alcohol when I was a teenager. Legalizing it won’t actually make it easier to get.
I’ve been smoking pot for over 45 years … when is all the gubbmint warning bad stuff supposed to start happening to me?
When Hutchinson said the goal was to reduce the amount of harmful drugs, I was hoping someone would counter: “Why not rather to reduce the amount of harm from drugs?”
My favorite quote from Asa (which I don’t believe has been mentioned above) was his misguided counter argument regarding the populous’ respect for the rule of law: “If people disagree with it in our democracy, they can change the law”. It seems as if that is what people have been successful in doing in many states across the country. I don’t demand that marijuana (medical or not) be legalized by states; I only ask for the federal government to end their puritanical encroachment on states’ rights that they’ve so carelessly usurped.
I didn’t watch the clip until just now, and I’m surprised that Mr. Kampia didn’t simply eviscerate Mr. Hutchinson on his statements about drug law reform forces not being able to get more States onboard the reform bandwagon.
A major part of the reason for that is the fact that the federal government has been spending the taxpayer’s dollars in propagandizing the various State legislatures where drug law reform measures were being proposed, on our dime and our time, in effect violating the Hatch Act, which prohibits such politically self-serving actions.
Because of the politicization of the Justice department under Bush 2, these violations were winked at, and even the GAO refused to take them on, stating for example that the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) had embedded in it’s charter a license to lie.
ONDCP became so brazen about it, it began sending its’ agents to those States attempting to pass referenda and legislation for reform and assisted Republican office contenders while saying they were only there to carry out their jobs.
Representative Henry Waxman called the ONDCP out on this, but nothing was done at the time, presumably because he and his supporters in this endeavor were waiting for a Democrat to take control of the Executive Branch. It remains to be seen if anything comes of this, for it should be answered in order to prevent this kind of democracy-destroying practice from continuing.
Former DEA chief Asa Hutchinson says keeping marijuana illegal would save teens lives… Last time i checked drug dealers dont check ID’s when they are selling the drugs!!!! Legalize and tax and regulate all drugs!!!!! That includes cocaine, crack, Herion, and methamphetamine.. Bottom line is if people wana do these drugs they are goin to do them regardless… Lets start saving tax money on fighting them and start making money and regulating them..
It seems to me the prohibition has been based on a ‘moral’ argument, meaning it was really all about religion.
I started a religious freedom movement to legalize pot because I thought it needed a solution other people were not addressing. Namely that it was motivated by religious prejudice.
I was wrong, that was the cover story for a deadly criminal cartel operating right out of our own Capital Hill. Scary! So, to end the Drug War, fearless Sister Lauren from the THC Ministry blogs on AlterNet,
New York Lightens Up on Some of the Harshest Drug Laws in the Country
Dr. Adamski, you wouldn’t by any chance now enjoy drinking that really dangerous drug, would you? Gee what a flaming hypocrite that would make you if you do. Sorry if I’m beating a dead horse, but isolated as he is here, his ilk are still ruling the roost, so his joker ideas aren’t nearly as dead as they need to be.