Enjoy it while it lasts!

1) The governments of a bunch of other countries are so hip deep in this that they basically told the US “Release this information and you will never, ever get any cooperation on anything military or intelligence oriented from us again;”

2) The material was so awful that they concluded that the safety of any US citizen outside of North America would be in jeopardy due to the angry reactions in other countries.

I think the former is more likely; people in other countries are already assuming the very worst.

But you are right. As far as doing something about the State, an individual can vote, which we all know is a fixed game. Or he can revolt. But I am a little out-gunned.

I can bitch about it on the web though!

I blame the two party system.

I think you meant to say that you blame the 1 party system.

Sorry Cyn. I like you, like the opinions you bring, but I am not swallowing the ‘we are all complicit’ pill. I don’t get a share of the blame for everything bad thing my government does anymore than I get a share of the credit for every good thing it does.

Sorry Neo, I guess I am not finally awake after all.

I see what you are saying. Perhaps I jumped a little quickly, as frivolous lawsuits are a bit of a hot button with me. Perhaps this one should have been allowed, if for no other reason than because the government doesn’t wish it.

Of course, if Boeing was found to be responsible and a large settlement was awarded, we would just get to involuntarily bail them out.

Oh yes it is. They are complicit.

If it appears that the line of complicity reaches all of us, then you are finally awake.

You are still assuming facts that have not been proven and might be specifically proved in the opposite. Without getting too much into detail if Boeing(‘s subsidiary) knew what it was doing was illegal then that increases their culpability. Based on my rape appointment analogy, let’s say you were ordered by a police officer to drive the woman to a prison because she was a criminal, it would still be relevant if you knew that the plan was to do unlawful things to her when she got to that prison.

The bottom line is your argument relies on certain facts being resolved in a certain way and that is what this lawsuit would seek to settle.

Your argument that this undermines accountability for truly guilty government officials is – respectfully – somewhat absurd. These kinds of civil suits against those complicit in the government’s crimes might be the best, let alone only, way to understand exactly what the government did and who authorized it. Simply putting more of this information into the public domain increases accountability even if there is, sadly, no legal punishment. I think it’s always better to know the culprit and the extent of the crime even if you can’t catch the actual criminal.

This can’t remotely be compared to someone handcuffing a kidnapped woman to my car and having me drive her to a rape appointment.

In this case the ‘someone’ is the US Government. the woman is a detainee that the government maintains has been legally detained and the company does not get to rule on that. And the rape appointment is simply turning the detainee over to another allied government.

Suing the carrier does nothing to bring any measure of justice to the situation. All the people who should truly be accountable are safe in this scenario.

And I do think the right people should be held accountable. Going after Boeing and pretending that they are the right target does not make it so. In fact, it helps let the real culprits off the hook, because now somebody has been given blame. The wrong somebody.

Nor do I consider this similar to the IG Farben scenario. I consider this this more similar to suing Smith & Wesson because they made the gun some gangbanger used to kill a kid.

Some of our bombs have killed Iraqi civilians. That might be our government’s fault. It might be the bomb manufacturer’s fault. But it is not the fault of the trucking company that delivered them from the factory. Even though they knew some of those bombs might kill civilians.

Boeing = IG Farben

Boeing is a death merchant.

As for voters, fuck the lot of you. Transfer all of your negative karma onto me if it makes you feel less guilty.

#13 Cynical In CA

Godwin alert:

Chris, you just excused IG Farben for manufacturing Zyklon B because some people just happened to breathe the air it was pumped into. You sure you want to stand by your comment now?

I think that’s not an apples to apples comparison. I would actually be less inclined to forgive Boeing than IG Farben because Boeing is located in a country that supposedly doesn’t force companies to do things that are in violation of the constitution. The AT&T example is better because at least one company (Qwest) chose to resist the government in that case (and are now heroes in my book). I think Boeing could have resisted.

But then nobody other than me that I’ve met/talked to really supports all the Constitution. The Constitution is not a buffet and it ain’t Burger King. The law is the law is the law. Don’t like it work to get it changed. Disobey it and pay the price.

Obama was always a demagogue EXACTLY what the Framers warned about when the Framers decided the People were too stupid to vote for President. Then the freaking parties come along, coopt the process, and screw us over. Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. – Santayana

Stupid people get stupid government. The rules are simple and clear spend some time learning them and quit trying to get knowledge from an idiot box.

Dominus providebit!