TheAgitator.com
Verdict Coming in Ryan Frederick Case
Wednesday, February 4th, 2009The jury has apparently reached a verdict.
Details to come.
MORE:
Interesting that they did not convict of him of manufacturing marijuana, only of simple possession. Frederick was also facing a charged related to the use of a handgun in the commission of a felony, but the Virginian-Pilot report doesn’t indicate the jury’s decision, there. Voluntary manslaughter is a felony, so I would guess he’ll get time tacked on for the handgun.
The maximum sentence for manslaughter in Virginia is 10 years. Maximum sentence for simple possession (a misdemeanor) is 12 months.
I had a feeling that the jury would take a “slit the difference” approach once the judge agreed to allow them to consider lesser charges. Looks like that’s what happened.
Bummer.
Just b4 lunch, the jury asked for the video of ryans interrogation. Shortly after, we get a verdict. I think this might be good news.
(fingers crossed)
Not guilty on all counts.
/hoping against hope
With the requests for the interview videos and tapes, I am wondering what the deliberation was focused on….
Shoot…looks like I’ve got a lot of page reloads ahead of me.
I hope this shit works out.
Ditto, CiCA.
Free this hero.
dammit
voluntary manslaugher
claude, I think them asking for the video means they will convict him on lesser charges. If they needed to see it then they were debating his level of knowledge and intent most likely, rather than whether or not he was defending himself outright. Though the latter is certainly possible that’s just my hunch.
I have a bad feeling.
” I think them asking for the video means they will convict him on lesser charges.”
They did. :(
What’s your source, Claude?
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/verdict-reached-ryan-frederick-trial-details-come-0
hampton roads is the source
“A jury convicted Ryan Frederick of voluntary manslaughter this afternoon in the January 2008 death of Chesapeake police Detective Jarrod Shivers.
It also convicted him of simple possession of marijuana.
In the process, the group opted against the two most serious charges filed against the 29-year-old – capital murder and manufacturing marijuana. Voluntary manslaughter carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison. Marijuana possession is a misdemeanor, with a maximum sentence of 12 months in jail and a $2,500 fine.”
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/verdict-reached-ryan-frederick-trial-details-come-0
I reloaded the “details coming soon” story a couple times and on the bottom of the page was the link that claude has.
Do we have any lawyers from Va posting here? Isnt voluntary manslaughter a 10 year max sentence and it takes an aggravated manslaughter conviction to get the 20 max cap?
Considering Frederick killed a police officer, which is a capital offense in almost any other case regardless of circumstances, voluntary manslaughter is a minor miracle. Acquittal would have been Biblical.
What are the sentencing guidelines? Is there a chance the judge will be lenient? Will Broccoletti appeal? If so, on what grounds? Are there any other jurisdictions that plan to try Frederick to get a stronger charge to stick?
Voluntary Manslaughter? Are they kidding? No acquittal?
Let this be yet another example of the horrible results of using force to get 12 average joes with no professional training in crime and human rights to judge others.
Must prove victim was killed.
Must prove it was intentional and impassioned.
Intentionally? How in the world did they deduce this?
“Acquittal would have been Biblical.”
Yes it certainly would have, Cynical in CA. And of course, the fact that an acquittal would have been a Biblical miracle in this instance is a testament (pun intended) of the bullshit snowjob that is known as a jury trial.
They didn’t deduce it. Most likely they knew he wasn’t guilty but a cop was killed so they had to stick him with something. Following the instructions, he could not be convicted of even Involuntary, but following reality he was getting something.
I found something on the sentencing guidelines for va.
Voluntary manslaughter
MUR-0944-F5
§18.2-35
1Y-10Y
(II)
Involuntary manslaughter – vehicular, aggravated
MUR-0948-F9
§18.2-36.1(B)
1Y-20Y
(II)
This came from here: http://www.vcsc.state.va.us/change%20to%20Appendx_Table%20A.pdf
“Must prove it was intentional and impassioned”
I think that statement above is grounds for an appeal. I don’t see how that statement fits any of RF’s actions that night.
Impassioned? – Yes… scared out of his wits.
Intentional – No. I don’t see that. He intentionally shot, but wasn’t intentionally shooting to kill.
#16 He can get upto 10 years for the Manslaughter and up to 12 months for the possession charge. It sounds like sentancing is at least partially upto the same jury
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/frederick-convicted-manslaughter-officers-slaying
This is just the saddest thing ever. In the history of drug prohibition, has drug use ever created this much misery for any group of people? In the history of mankind, has Marijuana use ever created this much misery in the aggregate of all the times it has ever been used?
So sad.
I can only hope that somewhere, a drug warrior realizes that this verdict doesn’t bring Det. Shivers back, and that that drug warrior starts to realize how he has to share some of the blame.
It sucks that they were able to consider lesser charges. He would be walking otherwise.
Mike L.,
I don’t think you are applying the appropriate (legal) definition of intentional.
#21, I’m not doubting your source but something seems a little off there. Why would the maximum sentance for involuntary manslaughter be higher than voluntary
From the jury instructions given in this case (and common sense) Voluntary Manslaughter is the more serious charge:
[b]To find the defendant guilty of Voluntary Manslaughter, the prosecution;[/b]
Must prove victim was killed.
Must prove it was intentional and impassioned.
[b]To find the defendant guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter, the prosecution;[/b]
Must prove victim was killed.
Must prove it was callous disregard.
http://tidewaterliberty.wordpress.com/john-wilburns-reports/day-10-february-2-2009/
Justice was NOT served today.
Or the jury could have convicted him of Capital Murder in the absence of lesser charges. I have no doubt they would want to convict him of something. I would not trust a jury who convicted a guy for Voluntary Manslaughter when even Involuntary was too harsh to actually choose not Guilty.
Ok, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but couldn’t they let him out with time served under the sentencing guidelines (1-10 years for manslaughter, 12 months for the drug charge)?
I still have hope that they realize that he really wasn’t at fault here, even if he was guilty of this “crime”.
Looks like the pilot updated their story to reflect a 10yr max instead of a 20.
I’m not a criminal law guy, but I thought that the “handgun in comission of felony” is applied to a separate felony like bank robbery or rape. Does the handgun in commission of a felony occur if the only felony was manslaughter that was committed using the handgun?
If the recommended minimum for manslaughter is 1year, and marijuana possession maximum is 1 year, the judge could rule that they be served concurrently and release him for time served (already 1 year+)
I was hoping for a hung jury, but I’m not surprised by this. Hopefully the sentence RF gets will be lenient. Also hoping there will be appeals that are fruitful for RF.
“To find the defendant guilty of Voluntary Manslaughter, the prosecution;
Must prove it was intentional and impassioned.
To find the defendant guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter, the prosecution;
Must prove it was callous disregard.”
It seems like callous disregard vs. intentional is a judgment call here. If they had any sense they were watching the video and listening to the audio to determine if he was shooting to kill or not. When I listened to the interviews with RF I got the impression that he feared for his life, suspected multiple intruders, and shot to kill the nearest SOB he could find. I don’t blame him, but I think it was intentional. Hopefully they take his circumstances into account when they sentence him.
Bah. At least it wasn’t capital murder, but still, I’m disappointed.
Hopefully the sentence isn’t too harsh.
Well shit…this sucks swamp water from hell. WTF are these jurors thinking?…er…not thinking…
And people have the BALLs to utter, “Our justice system works!”
Yeah, and I am the next American Idol and Queen of England!
Now I am truly depressed, pass the caffeine, prozac and a doobie!
“I think it’s a very fair and very rational verdict by the jury. I think it demonstrates that they applied reason, thought and common sense and sound judgment in what was a very emotional case,” defense attorney James Broccoletti said.
For Class 5 felonies, the jury or court may choose imprisonment for one to 10 years or jail for up to 12 months and a fine of up to $2,500, either or both.
Yeah, I don’t understand legal definitions (having never been lobotomized). It doesn’t make sense to me. Would they have convicted him if they weren’t given the options of a lesser crime?
I am just ill. I half wish I still lived in Great Bridge so I would have had a slim chance to be on that jury. I guess I’ll just stick in out here in Texas where our local DA is hung up with busting places that sell dildos and such.
The system fails again!
Randy Bean, I’m actually happy that it didn’t end up in a hung jury – if that was the case it would leave RF open to having to go through this all over again. And you know the prosecution wouldn’t mess up as badly as they did this time if they had another go at it.
I don’t know if it can be assumed that they split the difference. They may have considered shooting through the door reckless. I hope some of the jurors give press interviews so we get to hear a little about what went on behind the jury room door.
I wonder what the verdict would be if the cops were put on trial for needlessly endangering people with their tactics. They weren’t reacting on a moment’s notice to a scary situation like RF. They had plenty of time to think through the consequences of their actions and went ahead with it anyway.
#33 | SJE | February 4th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
If the recommended minimum for manslaughter is 1year, and marijuana possession maximum is 1 year, the judge could rule that they be served concurrently and release him for time served (already 1 year+)
The judge could also find him innocent and let him go, and seeing how the judge was privy to all the information (including things the jury didn’t hear), it would be nice, if unlikely, to see.
The sentence for a class 5 felony in Va. is:
Also, I think this verdict is very interesting, and that depending on whether Virginia has a castle doctrine statute, or a make my day law, it is possible that on appeal the court could direct a verdict of not guilty on voluntary manslaughter (that’s going to require some significant research I can’t do at work, though).
I doubt that there’s going to be an appeal.
“I think it’s a very fair and very rational verdict by the jury. I think it demonstrates that they applied reason, thought and common sense and sound judgment in what was a very emotional case,” defense attorney James Broccoletti said.
True Gac.
@33
I hope you are correct, and RF gets one year and is released with time served. I don’t know if that will happen, though, since we all know when a badge-wearer is killed, someone (anyone!) must pay…
It bothers me when people throw around time like 3 years is better than 10, or whatever. While it’s true to some extent, even a DAY in prison is like a lifetime. I guess time is less meaningful when you aren’t the one who has to serve it. Prison is HELL, and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
Here’s hoping for the best for RF.
Words are not enough to express my dismay at this travesty of justice. We have no justice in this country, we have a corrupt court system. A pox upon the DA and cops’ houses.
Andrew, you may be right regarding an appeal. But I think Brocolleti was likely asked for a statement and he gave them a statement that would not be inflammatory given that RF hasn’t been sentenced yet. He may just be keeping his powder dry until after sentencing. An appeal, if any, may ultimately be a function of the sentencing. A more severe sentence might make an appeal more likely.
Should I be glad that this isn’t another Cory Maye travesty and a life taken away? Or should I be horrified that this poor man might have to spend another decade in prison?
I honestly can’t decide.
We can still hope that the judge or jury (not sure who determines sentence) will go for ‘time served’ not ‘more PMITA prison.’
One can hope.
Damn shame.
Radley, I really hope you’ll do a full recap of this story so I can share, from start to (current) finish, this story. I hope your work on this and on the Corey Maye case can eventually lead to justice being served eventually.
From the article, it sounds like we may not have to wait too long to find out what the sentencing may be:
“The judge declared a short break, after which the jury will begin hearing evidence in the sentencing phase and eventually give a recommended sentence”
I’m still holding out hope for time served…
Fuck Ebert and the whole CPD. RF just lost the best years of his life. No justice was served today.
#44, the defense attorney sounded unqualified for this case, and that quote pretty much solidifies that.
It’s too bad the judge did not force the Capitol Murder charge to withstand the verdict. Such would have resulted a conviction in simple possession.
Time served, go home.
This is horseshit.
Not to armchair quarterback, but I feel like RF’s attorney didn’t do the greatest job here and to say he was putting things like snitch testimony in his pocket for appeals is crazy, RF is still going to be in prison while that’s going on.
Does the saying, “Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six,” apply in Frederick’s case?
I am uncertain. It may depend on who the twelve turn out to be.
#55, Broccoletti has sounded extremely qualified from everything that I have read. He’s presented the best possible defense for RF, with the cards stacked against him. I don’t know how he is being paid, but if RF just had your average overworked, underpaid public defender I’m certain that he would be facing life in prison right now.
This is an excellent outcome. The tide is turning. Thanks to you Radley and a tiny bunch of others (mostly you Agitator), the tide is turning. Trust and reverence for LE is waning, as is deserved. The justice system is broken, and that sentiment is creeping into more and more minds everyday. Confidential felon informants…snitches….gunned down senior citizens…false police report filing, charge sheet padding, deception training, perjury encouraging, justice obstruction, monopoly of violence, above the law mentality, the blue wall, convict at all costs, withhold exculpatory evidence…they’re rightly doing you in LE. Fix your fucking house, before we are forced to fix it for you!
-bear
I asked on tidewater if his conviction on two counts is accompanied by aquittal on the others [so double jeopardy attaches.]
#45, I think its too early to tell about an appeal. Brooletti probably said that because the same jury that determines guilt will also be determining his sentance next week.
#35, I believe the situation you describe is self-defense. If the jury believed he feared for his life then they should have aquitted him. Absolutely self-defense is intentionally inflicting harm but it isn’t murder.
Even if the sentence is time served, he still goes home a convicted felon. For the rest of his life he will have to tick that “Are you a convicted felon” on job applications. Not sure about VA, but if he moves to some other states he will lose his right to vote. He will always be haunted by this.
From what I know of this case, he doesn’t deserve to have to live through that…
Now the only thing I can hope for is a sentence of time served. *fingers crossed*
To make it easy, let’s say he’s been in prison for 1 year (it’s been longer). 365 days X 23 hours = 8,395 hours in a cell, wondering if you’ll be spending the rest of your life there. For defending yourself in what you understood to be a violent home invasion. In a country where that is supposedly a right.
I’m sick over this whole fucking thing.
Voluntary Manslaughter…
I guess the Chesapeake Police Department – and in fact, police departments all over Tidewater – will accept the verdict of Voluntary Manslaughter against Ryan Frederick as an endorsement of the tactics they used at his home on 17 January.
…
It sounds like the jury saw through the attempted railroading and rejected the testimony of the informant and all the jailhouse snitches, limiting their decision only to whether or not Frederick should have fired in that situation. I haven’t been following the case as closely as some of you, so for all I know they made the correct determination according to the law and the evidence.
But…God damn the Chesapeake Police Department for putting Ryan Frederick and Jarrod Shivers into a violent confrontation over a bunch of stupid plants.
#59 | Doug-
I agree, Doug. Everything I’ve read points to very competent counsel.
I hope the court shows mercy and releases RF asap.
#42 | Dave Krueger said: “They may have considered shooting through the door reckless.”
Man, when it’s considered “reckless” to shoot through a closed door that unknown persons are breaking through, i.e, you’re supposed to wait till they come through with guns or whatever blazing, no matter who they are, that’s a sad fucking day. In fact, it’s a sad fucking day when the cops get to do this for any reason other than to apprehend a criminal (again, crime with a VICTIM) who couldn’t be captured any other way (say, hostage situation).
and
“I wonder what the verdict would be if the cops were put on trial for needlessly endangering people with their tactics.”
No. Fucking. Shit.
The minimum for killing a person is 1 year, and the maximum for simple possession of marijuana is 1 year. The verdict is bullshit, the law is bullshittier.
Well, I think that if you fire a gun at someone, it is a fair legal assumption that you are intending to kill someone. So the issue here is not whether it was intentional, I have no doubt that it was intentional. The questions is whether is was legal self defense (from Frederick’s perspective).
Of course, the real issue is that this sort of situation should never happen, so no mater what happens, the outcome is bad. A man is dead an another has spent a year in jail and probably has several more ahead of him. All for the cause of preventing a few people from getting high.
I am a little confused.
Did the jury find RF “not guilty” on all charges except VM and MJ pos?
If so, there cannot be another trial on those charges. Why not appeal the VM verdict? I would assume that the state would cut a deal just to avoid the embarrassment of having an appeals court say bad things about the state’s behavior. If I’m Ebert, I don’t want anybody looking into “snitchgate” or “we did not take still photos of the re-enactment–opps, except we did.” Ebert and the trial judge do not want an appeals court weighing in on the probative value of the widow’s appearance on the stand.
Sorry RF.
Let this be a lesson to the rest of you: You MUST LET THE STATE KILL YOU OR YOU WILL GO TO JAIL FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.
I believe it is “for the children” or something.
Off to read comments from the pro-cop crowd…just like to witness crazy people.
re the judge finding him innocent:
This is not likely. A “directed verdict” requires that the judge find that “no reasonable jury” could have come up with the verdict it did. This is a very high standard, and cannot be based on things that the jury did not hear. I hate the verdict, but it is not completely unreasonable if the jury thinks that you should check who you are shooting at before you shoot through the door.
I think the best hope now for RF is for the judge to sentence him to time served, and comment in the sentencing on the police department and prosecutors manifest misdeeds. That would send a clear message.
RF is getting the full 10 year sentence. Why?
He killed an agent of the state.
The judge is also an agent of the state.
They look out for their own.
I think the best hope now for RF is for the judge to sentence him to time served
It’s going to be a Jury sentence. The judge has the power to suspend part or all of it, but Virginia judges rarely do that.
If it happened to me, in the same manner, I would have waited. That is because 1) I am a very good shot. 2) I am so used to using an arrow, that I am very aware of the need to see the target, to get the job done. 3)I also believe in using a shotgun for home defense. Trauma studies show people survive a shotgun wound 1% of the time, But survival for a pistol wound 60% of the time. I don’t want them to be able to get off a shot, at all! Alive and in prison for a few years would still be better than dead! But, it is a terrible price to pay for defending yourself against being killed, in your own home,when someone, intentionally and recklessly, crashes through the door! I also disagree with the verdict! It was, at least, a victory over the murder charges.
I just hope there is enough visibility of the case to get the use of SWAT teams restricted to violent situations, involving standoffs and/or hostages! One thing, I did not remember. If Shivers was wearing protective gear, whey did it fail him? It could be nothing other than accidental if it went around the protection. It would be a failure of the vest. That is a product liability issue! What about wrongful death due to that?! Just grasping for straws!
It’s amazing that police officers direct their hatred entirely at people like RF, but not at the policies and superiors that put them in the positions that get people killed.
They act as if Shivers was murdered by a bunch of plants, and not some stupid ass policy of going after plants with big guns and battering rams.
This might be a shitty analogy, but I’m gonna go with it.
I believe that terrorist acts against us are the result of blowback based on our government’s War on Terror and all the death and destruction the US government has caused in the Middle East and other places. The gov’t escalates the violence, thereby fostering more hatred and adding to the ranks of terrorists who oppose our gov’t.
I don’t see much of a difference with the War on Drugs. The more our gov’t ramps up the violence, the more people like me are joining the resistance. And I think we have an advantage in this war because the government is waging it on its own people. I like to think Americans are not so spineless that they will let this continue forever.
The tragedies involving Ryan Frederick, Kathryn Johnson, Cory Maye, etc. are gaining more interest, thanks to Radley and others. I would just encourage people to keep spreading the word. Maybe John Stossel could do a show on this (if he has, I missed it).
The more awareness in the general public, the more likelihood that informed people end up on these juries.
Just some thoughts – thanks for indulging me.
Wow, I actually had high hopes for an acquittal. This poor kid is being sacrificed on the altar of prohibition and police privilege. Thoroughly depressing. I’m gonna smoke a bowl. Everybody put down your cameras.
I wish just one person on that jury had been a reader of the “agitator”.
Then maybe justice (or at least a hung jury) would have prevailed.
Ok, so we have a citizen defending his home from invading thugs resulting in one dead thug. We have the citizen walking away, well, prison for a few years, (hopefully less) and then walking away.
All in all, if every citizen took out one of these thugs, and truly defended their homes like they were our castles, we wouldn’t be in nearly the mess we are in.
Congrats, RF. Society failed you. You did not fail society.
Michael,
According to the reports I have seen, the bullet entered through the arm hole of the vest and got to his chest that way. Not a defect in the vest, just a limitation of how they work.
It’s sad that this was better than expected, but still way more than he deserved.
Between this thread and the Broccoletti thread above this, it seems Mr. Frederick’s defense did an admirable job all things considered, and regardless of the statement released, may be planning an appeal depending on sentencing (if Mr. Frederick only had to serve another 6 months, or got time served, I could see the possibility of just moving on).
As folks prior have noticed, it’s disgusting that liars and the lust to eliminate the use of Marijuana have driven our society to this point. Det Shivers deserved better, and by all the accounts I have read, so did Mr. Frederick. The prohibition mentality adopted by so many failed both men, their families and all of us.
I’m sure Mr. Balko will stay on top of this. I hope better things are to come of it, in the end.
#42-you make a good point. And what would be the sentence for Voluntary F*cking Up Someones Life”? I know, there isn’t one.
Mike at #61:
“it is possible to commit murder without any actual intent to kill or to do grievous bodily harm,” – Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
Wouldn’t this apply to Manslaughter also?
I have a hard time understanding the voluntary manslaughter conviction as anything other than a comprise/split-the-difference decision. I could have understood if the jury had come back with either 2nd degree or involuntary (though I was hoping for acquittal), but voluntary makes no sense.
To convict on voluntary manslaughter, you would have to believe:
1) Frederick did not know that it was the police,
2) he honestly believed he was in danger, but
3) he couldn’t reasonably believe it was life threatening.
If you don’t believe either of 1 or 2, then it’s 2nd degree murder or worse. But if you believe 1 & 2, but not 3, then it’s at most involuntary manslaughter.
I guess you could make sense of it if you thought that Frederick honestly believed he was in danger, but this belief was objectively unreasonable. But the reasonableness analysis only applies to his belief about the necessity of deadly force, not whether he should have known it was the police.
Note: My comment above is based on my understanding of homicide law generally — I know nothing about Virginia law specifically.
Yes, the system failed, but it’s probably about the best that Ryan could reasonably get. One other thing – I’m guessing the prosecutor feels like an idiot right now. While it’s a let-down to us, his case has been destroyed.
Dr Tabor at tidewater is reporting RF has been sentenced to 10 years.
Seeking coorboration.
#65 | Windypundit said…
“God damn the Chesapeake Police Department for putting Ryan Frederick and Jarrod Shivers into a violent confrontation over a bunch of stupid plants.”
I say…
God damn this verdict. God damn the needless hate against Ryan. God damn the thugs who make war against our natural born rights. God damn the war on drugs. God damn the rotters. May history shit on the memory of this awful time where we squandered the abundance and promise of the future on the hatreds, prejudices, and fears of the past.
God damn the King, everything George III stood for in 1775, and his undying legacy of tyranny, malice, murder, and revenge against the sovereign individual in America today.
I guess you could make sense of it if you thought that Frederick honestly believed he was in danger, but this belief was objectively unreasonable.
That’s exactly how I figure the jury got there. They’re saying Frederick shot an intruder without sufficient reason to believe his life was in danger. In general (IANAL), for self-defense Frederick would need to have a reasonable belief that the person he shot had the (a) means, (b) opportunity, and (c) intent to do him great harm. The jury probably decided that, as a matter of state law, one or more of those elements was missing.
Yeah bear, its 10.
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/jury-calls-10-years-frederick-officers-slaying
#20 The jury is quite aware of what would happen to them if they acquitted. The cops know where all of them live and what cars they own.
One quote from a cops on the paper’s web site:
“I hope he never calls the police for anything. He killed a police officer. As a fellow officer I hope I have the chance to respond to him in a time of need. I will show him the same callousness, disregard, and recklessness he showed Officer Shivers. The Bible talks about a place for people like you Ryan. And it ain’t heaven!”
You think a cop that posts that would have no problem jacking up that jury for anything they can find or plant? I don’t.
confirmed:
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/jury-calls-10-years-frederick-officers-slaying
(I saw your post too Claude, but I just wanted to add:)
DAMN…just DAMN!
From the article:
Ah. Fuck the police.
#63 I predict that the number of successful home invasion robberies in VA will increase over the next several years. People in VA will now be afraid to defend themselves because of what happened to Ryan Frederick. The system has made it clear that defending yourself will result in a prison sentence, especially if you defend yourself against some bad cops.
This country needs an enema!
@#92 Frank,
I read that too. It’s pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. To serve and protect my fucking ass. To dominate and control.
And my police and prosecutor friends think like this. I’m rethinking my friendships.
I listen to Norm Stamper (great guy), and I have such a hard time reconciling his statements encouraging us not blame the cops for the WoD problems with statements like that PIG, Nate Davis, on the Pilot site.
Nate says, “The Bible talks about a place for people like you Ryan. And it ain’t heaven!”
My statements above apply to this guy.
“No, it stands upon this principle, that the meanest and lowest of the people are by the unalterable, indefeasible laws of God and nature, as well entitled to the benefit of the air to breathe, light to see, food to eat, and clothes to wear, as the nobles or the king.”
This goes for growing plants and defending our homes and lives as well as the rights mentioned above.
http://www.teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=1030
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02-vFYHZeHQ&NR=1
It’s amazing that police officers direct their hatred entirely at people like RF, but not at the policies and superiors that put them in the positions that get people killed.
It’s unfortunate that the defense really couldn’t afford to risk alienating the jury by questioning the police actions too harshly, since a proper line of inquiry should have yielded a different result (though I can’t fault Mr. Broccoletti for not wanting to risk it). Some simple questions:
-1- Did Mr. Frederick have reason to believe that someone was trying to break down his door, enter his house, and subdue him or worse? Yes. Indeed, someone was trying to break down his door, enter his house, and subdue him or worse.
-2a- Were the police really trying to make themselves heard? That they used a megaphone after the shooting suggests that they knew someone in the house might not hear them otherwise. If they wanted to be heard before they entered, is there any reason they didn’t use the megaphone?
-2b- Did the police want to be visually noticed as police? If so, why did they park their marked cars out of sight and not use the flashing lights?
-2c- Based upon 2a and 2b, when the police “announced” themselves, was their intention to get RF’s attention and have him let them in, or was their purpose to be able to claim they “announced” without having to make any real effort to do so?
-3- Mr. Frederick believed the people entering his house had not shown any legitimate purpose for doing so. Was he wrong in that belief?
-4- Was there any reason that Mr. Frederick should have believed that he was more likely to have his door broken down by police who wouldn’t bother to announce themselves audibly or flash lights in his windows rather than a burglar?
-5- For anyone, regardless of government position, to knowingly break into an occupied dwelling without making all reasonable efforts to let the occupant know of their identity and intentions is reckless if not suicidal. Is there any reason to hold a man who was just awoken from sleep to a higher standard than trained professionals who had time to plan their actions?
IMHO, some of the surviving members of the raid party should be prosecuted for felony murder; while RF should be acquitted outright.
BTW, what would have happened if the defense had asked in voir dire (the jury-tampering phase): “Will you swear to uphold the Constitution of the United States as the Supreme Law of the Land throughout your conduct in this case, even if it means recognizing that government agents who violate the Constitution act without legitimate authority”?
While I doubt a judge would allow such a question, I can see no legitimate basis for allowing the seating of a juror who wouldn’t be willing to take such an oath. The only arguments I can see against such an oath are:
-1- Jurors should not be bound by the Constitution of the United States.
-2- Agents of the state have legitimate authority to violate the Constitution.
While I do not doubt that many prosecutors and judges would believe both of those things, I can’t see how anyone who isn’t a crook would believe either.
If it were biblical, under the Old Testament law:
1) Skeeter would have been executed the moment that Mobley’s office proved him to be a liar.
2) Ebert would probably be fighting for his life under grounds similar to Skeeter (under OT law, perjury carries a summary sentencing to the punishment that would have been meted out to the innocent defendant).
3) Ryan Frederick would already be back at work, getting his life back on track.
Most people who think that the Bible’s legal system is savage have never read the law books and realized how much more advanced it is than modern American law at protecting the falsely accused from evil men like Skeeter and Ebert.
**One last thing. No separate trial would have been necessary to execute Skeeter and Ebert under the Mosaic Law. Under the Law, everyone who participates in the court is on trial in some fashion and the judge has the unilateral authority and mandate to punish any participant for crimes that are revealed in the court. American cops would drop like flies under the OT law for their testilying.
Vote in the poll
http://hamptonroads.com/polls/do-you-agree-voluntary-manslaughter-verdict-ryan-frederick
“It’s amazing that police officers direct their hatred entirely at people like RF, but not at the policies and superiors that put them in the positions that get people killed.”
It’s not really amazing. They like those policies just fine.
It’s not like the drug war hasn’t been raging since long before most of these ninja porktroopers signed up. It’s what they became cops to do in the first place.
what do the poll results say about the jury? They seem to be in the minority. There are those 20% again. All on Ryan Federick’s jury. All you can say is maybe Karma will come back around to one or more of these folks and they will find themselves in Ryan’s shoes. That seems to be how it works.
Nate’s comment about the Bible having a place for Ryan sounds very judgmental, does it not?! I think anyone who wants to quote it (the Bible) should know more about it that this simple statement. He obviously, has not read, or chooses not to believe the part on “judging”. It says ‘judge not lest you be judged”. And the judgment you use shall be “meted out against you”. Or, in other words, “what goes around comes around” There are so many other passages that point out Nate’s ignorance of his own faith. But, if you don’t read it, you won’t ever learn it!
Judgment is for all of us that have the Christian faith. I just hope mine is not based on buying my way into Heaven, with my good behavior. That is impossible. I am not good enough. Jesus even called down a guy for calling him “good” He said “only God is good!” Sorry, if I got any atheists nerves. I just think you should not be the only ones pointing out the error of Nate’s thinking.