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	<title>Comments on: The Drug War&#8217;s Collateral Damage</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: GL</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-237067</link>
		<dc:creator>GL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-237067</guid>
		<description>I wanted to note here that I read your piece, and his piece on Culture11 not really paying attention to who had written them until after I read the arguments, and frankly the Freddoso was horrible. I normally enjoy when the other side has bad arguments, but I&#039;ve seen that torn up by a LEAP member in about four seconds just by pointing out that if drug dealer wasn&#039;t available as a possible career choice to young children, how much violence would that filter out of our society from the start. I am appalled at his reasoning. Perhaps if we take away most of the monetary incentive for a large number of the criminal jobs available, maybe we will have less criminals period.

Your piece was excellent, and very useful for me, and I appreciate you writing it, but tbh, my enjoyment of both the well reasoned anti-drug war articles over there was vaguely overshadowed by the the fact that it is exceptionally horrible to me that our side is clearly correct, and yet still losing. What the hell? I feel heartened when I see people who call out arguments like that decimated, but it appears to make very little difference in the real world. I&#039;m kind of wondering at this point what we the people are going to have to do to get the ball really moving here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wanted to note here that I read your piece, and his piece on Culture11 not really paying attention to who had written them until after I read the arguments, and frankly the Freddoso was horrible. I normally enjoy when the other side has bad arguments, but I&#8217;ve seen that torn up by a LEAP member in about four seconds just by pointing out that if drug dealer wasn&#8217;t available as a possible career choice to young children, how much violence would that filter out of our society from the start. I am appalled at his reasoning. Perhaps if we take away most of the monetary incentive for a large number of the criminal jobs available, maybe we will have less criminals period.</p>
<p>Your piece was excellent, and very useful for me, and I appreciate you writing it, but tbh, my enjoyment of both the well reasoned anti-drug war articles over there was vaguely overshadowed by the the fact that it is exceptionally horrible to me that our side is clearly correct, and yet still losing. What the hell? I feel heartened when I see people who call out arguments like that decimated, but it appears to make very little difference in the real world. I&#8217;m kind of wondering at this point what we the people are going to have to do to get the ball really moving here.</p>
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		<title>By: HorsesAss.Org &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Drug War Roundup</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-231583</link>
		<dc:creator>HorsesAss.Org &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Drug War Roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-231583</guid>
		<description>[...] A half-hour long debate between Radley Balko and David Freddoso on bloggingheads.tv can be seen here.   Permalink &#124; Leave a Comment &#124; RSS    addthis_pub = &#039;nietsdlog&#039;; addthis_brand = &#039;HA Seattle&#039;; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A half-hour long debate between Radley Balko and David Freddoso on bloggingheads.tv can be seen here.   Permalink | Leave a Comment | RSS    addthis_pub = &#8216;nietsdlog&#8217;; addthis_brand = &#8216;HA Seattle&#8217;; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-231233</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-231233</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think anyone needs to have taken drugs to be able to identify their adverse side effects.  Most people already know how bad drugs can be on a person!  But, as most of us acknowledge here, the complications of alcohol, too, can be very destructive!  College kids seem to die every year of acute alcohol poisoning.  But, those overdoses are not discussed much in the media, either!  But, it always seems the drug warriors want to bring drunk driving and other illegal behavior as the result of the use of alcohol into the picture, too.  I personally think there would be less of that type of behavior with drug use.

But, as a physician, try writing for methamphetamine or morphine. If you treat more than a few patients,  you set the radar off.  Next thing you know there is a SWAT team in your office!   You are a drug dealer and you can get a life sentence!  And, those drugs are &quot;legal&quot; right now.

Even with drug were regulated, we still have to make it easier for them to be distributed.  Otherwise , there will still be a black market, as there is for Oxycontin and meth, right now. I think if heroin was called diamorphine, (or maybe morphine:-D) instead, there would be much less market for it, as well.  But, it would be, a very, cheap pain medication.  

It is very hard to get treated for chronic pain with opiates, right now.  How would we change this?  I guess, if doctors were not afraid of going to jail for writing the scripts, the black market could also be eliminated for those &quot;prescription&quot; drugs.  Fact is, though, too many doctors want to play cop.  And, I think there might be a problem with them,  in a legal regulated drug atmosphere.  Many may, still,  not want to write the drugs for the illness of &quot;addiction&quot;.  Then we could get into the entire problem dealing with the difference between physical dependence and addiction!  One requires daily medication for a, normally functioning, treated individual. While the addict would still be uncontrollable.  His needs would be different.  Good thing is addiction is not so high as the some opponents would say. (addicitionologists say 35%,but consider the source!  Addicts are their paycheck!)  True addicts make up, maybe 3%, at most, of drug users in this country, today. About the same as in 1937!  Addicts are those that continue to use, despite the fact that the continued use is harming them. Sounds like cigarette smokers, does it not?!

Then we have to figure out who gets treated.The patient who takes amphetamine to be able to function normally, on a daily basis?  When do doctors get retrained to listen to the patients&#039; pain, and illness complaints, again, instead of ignoring them as they do, nowadays?

And, my wife has ADD. She gets that stuff and it puts her to sleep!  This guy was not real knowledgeable about the effects of this drug, as well.  And claiming the Thompson machine gun was a reason for more deaths, falls back to the same old thing. If the guy with the machine gun, was not a criminal, in the first place, working for the mob, then people would not have been shot!  Guns don&#039;t kill people. They are machines!  People (mobsters, narcos,dealers) kill people! 

Lastly, many of the people that use drugs seem to be self medicating. What can we do to help them?  We certainly need better access to mental health.  Many can&#039;t afford it and a lot of mental health care is denied by the government and private health care programs.  Most, real, addicts have underlying mental problems.  I remember a scientific study that actually dealt with that subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone needs to have taken drugs to be able to identify their adverse side effects.  Most people already know how bad drugs can be on a person!  But, as most of us acknowledge here, the complications of alcohol, too, can be very destructive!  College kids seem to die every year of acute alcohol poisoning.  But, those overdoses are not discussed much in the media, either!  But, it always seems the drug warriors want to bring drunk driving and other illegal behavior as the result of the use of alcohol into the picture, too.  I personally think there would be less of that type of behavior with drug use.</p>
<p>But, as a physician, try writing for methamphetamine or morphine. If you treat more than a few patients,  you set the radar off.  Next thing you know there is a SWAT team in your office!   You are a drug dealer and you can get a life sentence!  And, those drugs are &#8220;legal&#8221; right now.</p>
<p>Even with drug were regulated, we still have to make it easier for them to be distributed.  Otherwise , there will still be a black market, as there is for Oxycontin and meth, right now. I think if heroin was called diamorphine, (or maybe morphine:-D) instead, there would be much less market for it, as well.  But, it would be, a very, cheap pain medication.  </p>
<p>It is very hard to get treated for chronic pain with opiates, right now.  How would we change this?  I guess, if doctors were not afraid of going to jail for writing the scripts, the black market could also be eliminated for those &#8220;prescription&#8221; drugs.  Fact is, though, too many doctors want to play cop.  And, I think there might be a problem with them,  in a legal regulated drug atmosphere.  Many may, still,  not want to write the drugs for the illness of &#8220;addiction&#8221;.  Then we could get into the entire problem dealing with the difference between physical dependence and addiction!  One requires daily medication for a, normally functioning, treated individual. While the addict would still be uncontrollable.  His needs would be different.  Good thing is addiction is not so high as the some opponents would say. (addicitionologists say 35%,but consider the source!  Addicts are their paycheck!)  True addicts make up, maybe 3%, at most, of drug users in this country, today. About the same as in 1937!  Addicts are those that continue to use, despite the fact that the continued use is harming them. Sounds like cigarette smokers, does it not?!</p>
<p>Then we have to figure out who gets treated.The patient who takes amphetamine to be able to function normally, on a daily basis?  When do doctors get retrained to listen to the patients&#8217; pain, and illness complaints, again, instead of ignoring them as they do, nowadays?</p>
<p>And, my wife has ADD. She gets that stuff and it puts her to sleep!  This guy was not real knowledgeable about the effects of this drug, as well.  And claiming the Thompson machine gun was a reason for more deaths, falls back to the same old thing. If the guy with the machine gun, was not a criminal, in the first place, working for the mob, then people would not have been shot!  Guns don&#8217;t kill people. They are machines!  People (mobsters, narcos,dealers) kill people! </p>
<p>Lastly, many of the people that use drugs seem to be self medicating. What can we do to help them?  We certainly need better access to mental health.  Many can&#8217;t afford it and a lot of mental health care is denied by the government and private health care programs.  Most, real, addicts have underlying mental problems.  I remember a scientific study that actually dealt with that subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-231012</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-231012</guid>
		<description>Reminds me of a cop who once asked me how much marijauna smoke it takes me to feel drunk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reminds me of a cop who once asked me how much marijauna smoke it takes me to feel drunk.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-231010</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-231010</guid>
		<description>&quot;It takes a lot of drinking to get yourself to that point&quot;.  I&#039;ve had thirteen beers, and now I feel like I&#039;m high on Meth!  This boy has no experience with illegal narcotics.  Similar to all supporters of drug prohibition.  It&#039;s just sad, that to be in any position to effect drug legislation you have to be totally ignorant in this area in terms of first hand experience, so as to have no idea what the fuck you&#039;re talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It takes a lot of drinking to get yourself to that point&#8221;.  I&#8217;ve had thirteen beers, and now I feel like I&#8217;m high on Meth!  This boy has no experience with illegal narcotics.  Similar to all supporters of drug prohibition.  It&#8217;s just sad, that to be in any position to effect drug legislation you have to be totally ignorant in this area in terms of first hand experience, so as to have no idea what the fuck you&#8217;re talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Chaney</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230949</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Chaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230949</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t listened to it, as I find such debates pointless.  I&#039;ll say this, though.  From the picture, it looks like Radley could kick his ass any day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t listened to it, as I find such debates pointless.  I&#8217;ll say this, though.  From the picture, it looks like Radley could kick his ass any day.</p>
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		<title>By: John Jenkins</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230929</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jenkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230929</guid>
		<description>@Seeker:

Re: Lawyer aphorisms:  I&#039;ve heard them all, but thanks!

Re: Political fundraising/donors.  You are in error, I am afraid, regarding American politics.  See, &lt;em&gt;e.g.&lt;/em&gt;, http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/21/nation/na-money21, http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1686613, http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/donordems.php?cycle=2008.  The trend has long been in favor of large donors moving toward the Democratic party.

Re: Subsidies. Using the word &quot;subsidy&quot; was intended to carry a pejorative effect, not a descriptive one.  Ignoring behavior on the left and criticizing the same behavior on the right would mark you as intellectually dishonest.  For charity&#039;s sake, I assume confirmation bias.

&lt;blockquote&gt;This is what drives me nuts about the gap between the what we can call “libertarian” civil libertarians and “progressive” libertarians. We don’t make common cause on things we agree with: the massive movement of government out of our personal choices and control over our own bodies and recreation. We tend to get caught up on our economic differences rather than joining forces against fools like Freddoso who are perfectly cool with the militarization of your society and the reduction of your freedoms.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Libertarians don&#039;t make common cause with progressives because libertarians believe in individual liberty. So long as we are not harming anyone, we believe we should be able to contract on terms we find agreeable; to say what we want, free from government fetters; to behave as we would, free of the state&#039;s control; to earn and spend money as we see fit; to order our lives as we desire.  Whether knave, noble, minstrel or fool, we should be allowed to act as we would, and suffer the consequences as we must. 

&quot;Progressive Libertarian,&quot; on the other hand, is a contradiction in terms.  The progressive project is about expanding government power.  Can&#039;t convince people that global warming is a problem?  Use government to force recycling, tax disfavored cars, and waste money on &quot;green power.&quot;  Can&#039;t convince people you are right about smoking?  Pass a law outlawing it everywhere except in your home on Tuesday when the kids are away and there&#039;s a full moon!  Don&#039;t like people&#039;s decisions about what to eat?  Pass a law taxing (or banning) disfavored foods!  Don&#039;t like how people choose to spend their money?  Tax them and spend it on the things we progressives know are important!  Don&#039;t like that some people make more money than others?  Take it away at the point of a gun!  Don&#039;t like the way the market allocates scarce resources?  Nationalize them allocate them the way progressives know they should be.  Don&#039;t like that people aren&#039;t doing what you think they should?  Make national service mandatory, on pain of imprisonment.

Progressives are as against liberty as every dyed-in-the-wool reactionary who wants to mandate the pledge of allegience and jail those who burn the flag.  I would no more make common cause with progressives than those reactionaries.  None of you can be trusted.

If we divide liberty, as is sometimes done, on two axes of economic liberty and social liberty, if we truck with the right, we betray social liberty.  If we consort with the left, we betray economic liberty.  Both sides wish to expand the power of government, and consolidate that power as far away as possible, so that it is as unaccountable as possible.  The left is no less tyrannical than the right; the only difference is what the crimes will be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Seeker:</p>
<p>Re: Lawyer aphorisms:  I&#8217;ve heard them all, but thanks!</p>
<p>Re: Political fundraising/donors.  You are in error, I am afraid, regarding American politics.  See, <em>e.g.</em>, <a href="http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/21/nation/na-money21" rel="nofollow">http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/21/nation/na-money21</a>, <a href="http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1686613" rel="nofollow">http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1686613</a>, <a href="http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/donordems.php?cycle=2008" rel="nofollow">http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/donordems.php?cycle=2008</a>.  The trend has long been in favor of large donors moving toward the Democratic party.</p>
<p>Re: Subsidies. Using the word &#8220;subsidy&#8221; was intended to carry a pejorative effect, not a descriptive one.  Ignoring behavior on the left and criticizing the same behavior on the right would mark you as intellectually dishonest.  For charity&#8217;s sake, I assume confirmation bias.</p>
<blockquote><p>This is what drives me nuts about the gap between the what we can call “libertarian” civil libertarians and “progressive” libertarians. We don’t make common cause on things we agree with: the massive movement of government out of our personal choices and control over our own bodies and recreation. We tend to get caught up on our economic differences rather than joining forces against fools like Freddoso who are perfectly cool with the militarization of your society and the reduction of your freedoms.</p></blockquote>
<p>Libertarians don&#8217;t make common cause with progressives because libertarians believe in individual liberty. So long as we are not harming anyone, we believe we should be able to contract on terms we find agreeable; to say what we want, free from government fetters; to behave as we would, free of the state&#8217;s control; to earn and spend money as we see fit; to order our lives as we desire.  Whether knave, noble, minstrel or fool, we should be allowed to act as we would, and suffer the consequences as we must. </p>
<p>&#8220;Progressive Libertarian,&#8221; on the other hand, is a contradiction in terms.  The progressive project is about expanding government power.  Can&#8217;t convince people that global warming is a problem?  Use government to force recycling, tax disfavored cars, and waste money on &#8220;green power.&#8221;  Can&#8217;t convince people you are right about smoking?  Pass a law outlawing it everywhere except in your home on Tuesday when the kids are away and there&#8217;s a full moon!  Don&#8217;t like people&#8217;s decisions about what to eat?  Pass a law taxing (or banning) disfavored foods!  Don&#8217;t like how people choose to spend their money?  Tax them and spend it on the things we progressives know are important!  Don&#8217;t like that some people make more money than others?  Take it away at the point of a gun!  Don&#8217;t like the way the market allocates scarce resources?  Nationalize them allocate them the way progressives know they should be.  Don&#8217;t like that people aren&#8217;t doing what you think they should?  Make national service mandatory, on pain of imprisonment.</p>
<p>Progressives are as against liberty as every dyed-in-the-wool reactionary who wants to mandate the pledge of allegience and jail those who burn the flag.  I would no more make common cause with progressives than those reactionaries.  None of you can be trusted.</p>
<p>If we divide liberty, as is sometimes done, on two axes of economic liberty and social liberty, if we truck with the right, we betray social liberty.  If we consort with the left, we betray economic liberty.  Both sides wish to expand the power of government, and consolidate that power as far away as possible, so that it is as unaccountable as possible.  The left is no less tyrannical than the right; the only difference is what the crimes will be.</p>
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		<title>By: The Johnny Appleseed Of Crack</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230919</link>
		<dc:creator>The Johnny Appleseed Of Crack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230919</guid>
		<description>Nice job on the debate, Radley.  
The one comment I&#039;d make is that methamphetamines are not the devil in chemical form.  It is actually a drug that is prescribed in the U.S. for treatment of A.D.D. and Narcolepsy,  under the trade name &quot;Desoxyn&quot;.  Clearly, if there are no benefits to using it, and everyone who consumes it winds up the way Fredoso seems to think they will, then it would not be something that doctors prescribe to both children and adults.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice job on the debate, Radley.<br />
The one comment I&#8217;d make is that methamphetamines are not the devil in chemical form.  It is actually a drug that is prescribed in the U.S. for treatment of A.D.D. and Narcolepsy,  under the trade name &#8220;Desoxyn&#8221;.  Clearly, if there are no benefits to using it, and everyone who consumes it winds up the way Fredoso seems to think they will, then it would not be something that doctors prescribe to both children and adults.</p>
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		<title>By: RobW</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230918</link>
		<dc:creator>RobW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230918</guid>
		<description>Just to add to seeker&#039;s comment re &quot;wingnut welfare.&quot;  It is a difference in degree that results in a difference in kind, but it is ALSO a significant difference in kind.  The right&#039;s outlets routinely rely on illogic, fundamentally flawed reasoning, poor sourcing, stating opinions as fact, and appeals to nationalism, nativism, racism, sexism, etc.  The left&#039;s outlets are generally way more scholarly in nature- they do their homework and argue with far more honesty.  Anne Coulter : Amanda Marcotte is a good comparison.  Also- Jonah Goldberg : David Neiwert.  Bill Kristol : Juan Cole.  Glenn Reynolds : Glenn Greenwald.  David Horowitz : anyone with an advanced degree.

Speaking of which, the common rightwing trope that academics are biased towards the left cracks me up.  Even if you grant that as true (and I don&#039;t), what does it tell you?  That people who spend their lives thoroughly studying a particular subject tend to reject the conservative take on it?  So, the more closely and rigorously you study a subject, the more likely you are to realize that the right is wrong about it.  Of course, you can reject that conclusion- IF you reject the premise of liberal bias in academia.  I don&#039;t see how you can have both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to add to seeker&#8217;s comment re &#8220;wingnut welfare.&#8221;  It is a difference in degree that results in a difference in kind, but it is ALSO a significant difference in kind.  The right&#8217;s outlets routinely rely on illogic, fundamentally flawed reasoning, poor sourcing, stating opinions as fact, and appeals to nationalism, nativism, racism, sexism, etc.  The left&#8217;s outlets are generally way more scholarly in nature- they do their homework and argue with far more honesty.  Anne Coulter : Amanda Marcotte is a good comparison.  Also- Jonah Goldberg : David Neiwert.  Bill Kristol : Juan Cole.  Glenn Reynolds : Glenn Greenwald.  David Horowitz : anyone with an advanced degree.</p>
<p>Speaking of which, the common rightwing trope that academics are biased towards the left cracks me up.  Even if you grant that as true (and I don&#8217;t), what does it tell you?  That people who spend their lives thoroughly studying a particular subject tend to reject the conservative take on it?  So, the more closely and rigorously you study a subject, the more likely you are to realize that the right is wrong about it.  Of course, you can reject that conclusion- IF you reject the premise of liberal bias in academia.  I don&#8217;t see how you can have both.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230841</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230841</guid>
		<description>Not to mention, there&#039;d be no meth if people could take real amphetamines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to mention, there&#8217;d be no meth if people could take real amphetamines.</p>
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		<title>By: auggie</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230830</link>
		<dc:creator>auggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230830</guid>
		<description>Frederro also said something about meth causing horrific crime. Then went on to recommend alcohol for people wanting to get high. but if you look at the numbers alcohol is involved in most violent crimes (rape, murder, battery) much more so than all other drugs combined. Good advice there pal. Meth will make people do crazy sick stuff but will never challenge alcohol as the most violent drug on earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frederro also said something about meth causing horrific crime. Then went on to recommend alcohol for people wanting to get high. but if you look at the numbers alcohol is involved in most violent crimes (rape, murder, battery) much more so than all other drugs combined. Good advice there pal. Meth will make people do crazy sick stuff but will never challenge alcohol as the most violent drug on earth.</p>
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		<title>By: seeker6079</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230823</link>
		<dc:creator>seeker6079</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:34:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230823</guid>
		<description>&quot;That you are British (apparently) may go a long way toward explaining why your views on the American right sound more like they’re informed by the BBC than actual experience living in red or blue areas of the United States.&quot;

Forgot to mention: I used to live in Texas.  Oh-for-three, MikeT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That you are British (apparently) may go a long way toward explaining why your views on the American right sound more like they’re informed by the BBC than actual experience living in red or blue areas of the United States.&#8221;</p>
<p>Forgot to mention: I used to live in Texas.  Oh-for-three, MikeT.</p>
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		<title>By: Helmut O' Hooligan</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230820</link>
		<dc:creator>Helmut O' Hooligan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230820</guid>
		<description>Radley, congrats on a job well done. I got to watch a little over half of the discussion (during down time at work).  After your intial statement, Freddoso said, &quot;I think all those ideas are interesting and have some validity.&quot;  But based on the rest of his responses, I&#039;m guessing it all went in one ear and out the other.  

You were correct that some people are born into a &quot;criminal lifestyle,&quot; and the effects of that won&#039;t go away overnight.  But Freddoso&#039;s assertion that criminals will just &quot;find something else&quot; after legalization doesn&#039;t bolster his case in the least.  Criminals are involved in theft rings, extortion, drunken idiocy and &quot;other things&quot; right now.  But it is the mixing of these basically inevitable problems with illicit vice markets that leads to out of control crime rates.  Anyway, good work, Radley.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Radley, congrats on a job well done. I got to watch a little over half of the discussion (during down time at work).  After your intial statement, Freddoso said, &#8220;I think all those ideas are interesting and have some validity.&#8221;  But based on the rest of his responses, I&#8217;m guessing it all went in one ear and out the other.  </p>
<p>You were correct that some people are born into a &#8220;criminal lifestyle,&#8221; and the effects of that won&#8217;t go away overnight.  But Freddoso&#8217;s assertion that criminals will just &#8220;find something else&#8221; after legalization doesn&#8217;t bolster his case in the least.  Criminals are involved in theft rings, extortion, drunken idiocy and &#8220;other things&#8221; right now.  But it is the mixing of these basically inevitable problems with illicit vice markets that leads to out of control crime rates.  Anyway, good work, Radley.</p>
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		<title>By: MacGregory</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230810</link>
		<dc:creator>MacGregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230810</guid>
		<description>#33 Robin
&quot;...I become more convinced that this war is supported almost exclusively by those who’ve never tried an illegal drug...&quot;

But they are perfectly Ok with getting shit-faced drunk. 
&quot;It&#039;s Ok boss. I have a prescription for these lortab 10s.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#33 Robin<br />
&#8220;&#8230;I become more convinced that this war is supported almost exclusively by those who’ve never tried an illegal drug&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>But they are perfectly Ok with getting shit-faced drunk.<br />
&#8220;It&#8217;s Ok boss. I have a prescription for these lortab 10s.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: seeker6079</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230808</link>
		<dc:creator>seeker6079</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230808</guid>
		<description>Mike T, your assumption is incorrect; I&#039;m Canadian.  

Your knowledge re &quot;Crown&quot;, is also incorrrect.  &quot;Crowns&quot; is Canadian legal shorthand for both government prosecuting attorneys at both federal and provincial superior courts*, and for the prosecution itself, and has always been so since I graduated from law school in the 1980s.  e.g.s:
&quot;I thought we could get a plea, but the Crown is a bit of a hardass.&quot;
or
&quot;The Crown appeals from the decision of Mr. Justice So-and-So...&quot;**

* - See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_attorney. 
** - See for example canlii.org, where &quot;the crown appeals&quot; produces over 2700 hits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike T, your assumption is incorrect; I&#8217;m Canadian.  </p>
<p>Your knowledge re &#8220;Crown&#8221;, is also incorrrect.  &#8220;Crowns&#8221; is Canadian legal shorthand for both government prosecuting attorneys at both federal and provincial superior courts*, and for the prosecution itself, and has always been so since I graduated from law school in the 1980s.  e.g.s:<br />
&#8220;I thought we could get a plea, but the Crown is a bit of a hardass.&#8221;<br />
or<br />
&#8220;The Crown appeals from the decision of Mr. Justice So-and-So&#8230;&#8221;**</p>
<p>* &#8211; See for example <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_attorney" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_attorney</a>.<br />
** &#8211; See for example canlii.org, where &#8220;the crown appeals&#8221; produces over 2700 hits.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230800</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230800</guid>
		<description>Whenever I hear a defense of drug prohibition I become more convinced that this war is supported almost exclusively by those who&#039;ve never tried an illegal drug, except perhaps for some marijauna back in college.  It&#039;s so typical, Fredoso launching into these anecdotes about that time he saw a crazy guy on the subway, and assuming that it was primarily caused by illegal drug use, reducing him to &quot;an empty shell&quot;.  It could just as easily been caused by alcohol abuse, or more likely, mental illness.  There is a silent large group of people out there that use illegal drugs often, and aren&#039;t criminals(other then the drug use), sick and crazy, or destitute, and aren&#039;t on the road to becoming that way.  They use these drugs mainly because they don&#039;t feel like spending the money and time to flatter a psychiatrist&#039;s ego in order to obtain legal healthier equivalents like everyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whenever I hear a defense of drug prohibition I become more convinced that this war is supported almost exclusively by those who&#8217;ve never tried an illegal drug, except perhaps for some marijauna back in college.  It&#8217;s so typical, Fredoso launching into these anecdotes about that time he saw a crazy guy on the subway, and assuming that it was primarily caused by illegal drug use, reducing him to &#8220;an empty shell&#8221;.  It could just as easily been caused by alcohol abuse, or more likely, mental illness.  There is a silent large group of people out there that use illegal drugs often, and aren&#8217;t criminals(other then the drug use), sick and crazy, or destitute, and aren&#8217;t on the road to becoming that way.  They use these drugs mainly because they don&#8217;t feel like spending the money and time to flatter a psychiatrist&#8217;s ego in order to obtain legal healthier equivalents like everyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: TBoneJones</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230787</link>
		<dc:creator>TBoneJones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230787</guid>
		<description>The drug war is being won on most fronts. Entire countries are funded by black market profits and here at home now that they&#039;ve shipped most of the honest jobs hard working minorities use to do overseas prisons are the new cotton fields. When the geezers who started and support the drug war finally die off we can just switch the police armies we&#039;ve created over to fighting the war on terror. The main thing is, creating an enemy so terrible we have the rest of our rights stolen from us. BTW... PHUCK the King.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The drug war is being won on most fronts. Entire countries are funded by black market profits and here at home now that they&#8217;ve shipped most of the honest jobs hard working minorities use to do overseas prisons are the new cotton fields. When the geezers who started and support the drug war finally die off we can just switch the police armies we&#8217;ve created over to fighting the war on terror. The main thing is, creating an enemy so terrible we have the rest of our rights stolen from us. BTW&#8230; PHUCK the King.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike T</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230786</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230786</guid>
		<description>(I assume you&#039;re not Canadian, since Canada dropped the &quot;Crown&quot; from its prosecution service.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(I assume you&#8217;re not Canadian, since Canada dropped the &#8220;Crown&#8221; from its prosecution service.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mike T</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230785</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230785</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
A Crown (what in America’d be an ADA) of my acquaintance told me of one judge in her region. A former tax specialist he’d led a remarkably sheltered life.. .and the Crowns HATED him. The more violent and sick the crime the more he’d tune out, absolutely certain that such things never happened.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That you are British (apparently) may go a long way toward explaining why your views on the American right sound more like they&#039;re informed by the BBC than actual experience living in red or blue areas of the United States. No offense, or anything...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
A Crown (what in America’d be an ADA) of my acquaintance told me of one judge in her region. A former tax specialist he’d led a remarkably sheltered life.. .and the Crowns HATED him. The more violent and sick the crime the more he’d tune out, absolutely certain that such things never happened.
</p></blockquote>
<p>That you are British (apparently) may go a long way toward explaining why your views on the American right sound more like they&#8217;re informed by the BBC than actual experience living in red or blue areas of the United States. No offense, or anything&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MacGregory</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/15/the-drug-wars-collateral-damage/comment-page-1/#comment-230783</link>
		<dc:creator>MacGregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11754#comment-230783</guid>
		<description>The pro drug warriors always love to play the meth-amphetamine card as their ace in the hole. Radley did a pretty decent job of explaining that meth probably wouldn&#039;t even exist if it weren&#039;t for prohibition. Kudos.
I would like to ask Mr. Freddoso this (since he is so in touch with the community):
&quot;When was the last time you saw someone on a street corner peddling liquor and/or cigarettes to minors (or anyone)?&quot; 
He is probably also one of these people that think if prostitution was legal there would be a hooker on every corner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The pro drug warriors always love to play the meth-amphetamine card as their ace in the hole. Radley did a pretty decent job of explaining that meth probably wouldn&#8217;t even exist if it weren&#8217;t for prohibition. Kudos.<br />
I would like to ask Mr. Freddoso this (since he is so in touch with the community):<br />
&#8220;When was the last time you saw someone on a street corner peddling liquor and/or cigarettes to minors (or anyone)?&#8221;<br />
He is probably also one of these people that think if prostitution was legal there would be a hooker on every corner.</p>
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