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	<title>Comments on: Madoff for Social Security Administrator?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: Bill Woessner</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227688</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Woessner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 19:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227688</guid>
		<description>If a corporation issues itself its own bond, is it an asset?  No, of course not.

If the federal government issues itself its own bond, is it an asset?  The only way you can claim the Social Security Trust Fund is an asset is to answer this question yes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a corporation issues itself its own bond, is it an asset?  No, of course not.</p>
<p>If the federal government issues itself its own bond, is it an asset?  The only way you can claim the Social Security Trust Fund is an asset is to answer this question yes.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227657</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227657</guid>
		<description>If I have $100 in the bank earning 3%, and $10,000 worth of credit card debt that I am paying 5% on, and my paycheck allows me to make the minimum payments on my CC debt. My paycheck also allows me to pay my rent, buy food, clothes, etc, but I still need to add $200 each month to my CC debt to support my lifestyle, as well as having my CC debt increase by compounding.

So within my microcosm of economy. How much does my $100 in the bank really mean, or is it just a nice accounting trick so that I can fool myself into thinking that I&#039;m staying afloat?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I have $100 in the bank earning 3%, and $10,000 worth of credit card debt that I am paying 5% on, and my paycheck allows me to make the minimum payments on my CC debt. My paycheck also allows me to pay my rent, buy food, clothes, etc, but I still need to add $200 each month to my CC debt to support my lifestyle, as well as having my CC debt increase by compounding.</p>
<p>So within my microcosm of economy. How much does my $100 in the bank really mean, or is it just a nice accounting trick so that I can fool myself into thinking that I&#8217;m staying afloat?</p>
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		<title>By: cliff</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227642</link>
		<dc:creator>cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227642</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The projections that SS will drain the trust fund and go into deficit are based on a conservative 1.7 percent average annual GDP growth. If average growth is more like average long term historical trends, i.e. 3%, then SS NEVER runs out of money! (Or at least as far as any reasonable population projections can see)&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Oh, Thank God!  We can all stop worrying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The projections that SS will drain the trust fund and go into deficit are based on a conservative 1.7 percent average annual GDP growth. If average growth is more like average long term historical trends, i.e. 3%, then SS NEVER runs out of money! (Or at least as far as any reasonable population projections can see)&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</p>
<p>Oh, Thank God!  We can all stop worrying.</p>
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		<title>By: Lior</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227501</link>
		<dc:creator>Lior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227501</guid>
		<description>bobzbob: Indeed SS was never intended to be a savings/investment plan.  Its an income redistribution plan. That said, the &quot;accounting change&quot; is a serious problem.  The government debt to Social Security is an obligation of the United States, and should be accounted for as such.  The &quot;Trust Fund&quot; is an asset from the pov of the SSA, but it is definitely &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; an asset of the US.  If you think it is, then first the SSA is not a closed system, and secondly the US should add the benefits SS has undertaken to pay into the national debt.

The problem is the following: unlike ordinary businesses, the US does &quot;cash accounting&quot;.  Future obligations are not entered into the books today, only when they occur.  This also holds for future income (taxes).  In some ways it makes sense, but this creates a big issue with the SSA, which has a big future obligation.  Thus the big difference in perception between having the SSA &quot;in&quot; and &quot;out&quot; of the budget.  With the SSA &quot;out&quot; of the budget, there&#039;s a big national debt to the SSA (count the trust fund with all the other outstanding T-bills).  With the SSA &quot;in&quot; the budget, the future obligation represented by the T-bills disappears (it cancels against the asset of the T-bills themselves).  In theory, it should be replaced by the obligations of the SSA, but in practice that&#039;s not they way the accounting is done.

Economically of course there&#039;s no difference, but the current accounting method greatly underestimates the national debt by omitting future SS benefits from it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bobzbob: Indeed SS was never intended to be a savings/investment plan.  Its an income redistribution plan. That said, the &#8220;accounting change&#8221; is a serious problem.  The government debt to Social Security is an obligation of the United States, and should be accounted for as such.  The &#8220;Trust Fund&#8221; is an asset from the pov of the SSA, but it is definitely <b>not</b> an asset of the US.  If you think it is, then first the SSA is not a closed system, and secondly the US should add the benefits SS has undertaken to pay into the national debt.</p>
<p>The problem is the following: unlike ordinary businesses, the US does &#8220;cash accounting&#8221;.  Future obligations are not entered into the books today, only when they occur.  This also holds for future income (taxes).  In some ways it makes sense, but this creates a big issue with the SSA, which has a big future obligation.  Thus the big difference in perception between having the SSA &#8220;in&#8221; and &#8220;out&#8221; of the budget.  With the SSA &#8220;out&#8221; of the budget, there&#8217;s a big national debt to the SSA (count the trust fund with all the other outstanding T-bills).  With the SSA &#8220;in&#8221; the budget, the future obligation represented by the T-bills disappears (it cancels against the asset of the T-bills themselves).  In theory, it should be replaced by the obligations of the SSA, but in practice that&#8217;s not they way the accounting is done.</p>
<p>Economically of course there&#8217;s no difference, but the current accounting method greatly underestimates the national debt by omitting future SS benefits from it.</p>
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		<title>By: bobzbob</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227447</link>
		<dc:creator>bobzbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 02:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227447</guid>
		<description>P.S. The projections that SS will drain the trust fund and go into deficit are based on a conservative 1.7 percent average annual GDP growth.  If average growth is more like average long term historical trends, i.e. 3%, then SS NEVER runs out of money!  (Or at least as far as any reasonable population projections can see)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. The projections that SS will drain the trust fund and go into deficit are based on a conservative 1.7 percent average annual GDP growth.  If average growth is more like average long term historical trends, i.e. 3%, then SS NEVER runs out of money!  (Or at least as far as any reasonable population projections can see)</p>
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		<title>By: bobzbob</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227442</link>
		<dc:creator>bobzbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 02:09:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227442</guid>
		<description>The &quot;Trust fund&quot; was simply an investment of the surplus proceeds, not an investment of the principle for the benefit of the contributors, and the contributions to the trust fund where never more than a small percentage of the annual income and payouts.  The trust fund was simply an accumulation of the surplus.

LBJ didn&#039;t change anything in the way SS works, this is a lie spread by the right wingers.  The only thing LBJ did was change the accounting procedures so that the federal budget included social security (and the other &quot;trust funds&quot;).  This was simply a reporting change, nothing more.

Yes, the taxpayers will have to pay back the T-bills that make up the trust fund eventually - but the same is true of private investments in T-bills.  If the SS trust fund was not loaning the feds the money by buying T-bills then the feds would have had to borrow the money from someone else, like China.  Taxpayers will have to pay back the same amount of bonds regardless of who hold them, China or the SS admin.

Social security was NEVER a savings plan.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/sschanges.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;Trust fund&#8221; was simply an investment of the surplus proceeds, not an investment of the principle for the benefit of the contributors, and the contributions to the trust fund where never more than a small percentage of the annual income and payouts.  The trust fund was simply an accumulation of the surplus.</p>
<p>LBJ didn&#8217;t change anything in the way SS works, this is a lie spread by the right wingers.  The only thing LBJ did was change the accounting procedures so that the federal budget included social security (and the other &#8220;trust funds&#8221;).  This was simply a reporting change, nothing more.</p>
<p>Yes, the taxpayers will have to pay back the T-bills that make up the trust fund eventually &#8211; but the same is true of private investments in T-bills.  If the SS trust fund was not loaning the feds the money by buying T-bills then the feds would have had to borrow the money from someone else, like China.  Taxpayers will have to pay back the same amount of bonds regardless of who hold them, China or the SS admin.</p>
<p>Social security was NEVER a savings plan.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/sschanges.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/sschanges.asp</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lior</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227389</link>
		<dc:creator>Lior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227389</guid>
		<description>Lee: LBJ didn&#039;t change anything.  The &quot;trust fund&quot; was always invested in treasury bonds (read: loaned to the US Government).

From the point of view of the SSA, this is an investment scheme, not a pyramid scheme: they collect more money today than they have to pay out.  The remainder should, of course, be invested.  By law the only investment that SSA is allowed to make it to loan the money to the Feds.

Now there are two problems: one is that benefits are not correlated to investments.  Thus unless benefits are reduced to correspond to the actual size of the investment, the investment fund will indeed be drained eventually.

The second problem is that as the SSA tries to redeem the treasury bonds, taxpayers will have to fund this.  This is the &quot;pyramid&quot; aspect -- and this is what LBJ did.

Basically, in the 50s and 60s taxes were artificially lowered: instead of collecting taxes the government took a big loan from the SSA.  In a few years, the loan will have to be repaid at which point today&#039;s young taxpayers will have to pay for the spending when taxes should have been higher.  The problem is not with the SSA but with the Treasury, which counts social security taxes as income instead of counting the &quot;trust fund&quot; as part of the national debt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee: LBJ didn&#8217;t change anything.  The &#8220;trust fund&#8221; was always invested in treasury bonds (read: loaned to the US Government).</p>
<p>From the point of view of the SSA, this is an investment scheme, not a pyramid scheme: they collect more money today than they have to pay out.  The remainder should, of course, be invested.  By law the only investment that SSA is allowed to make it to loan the money to the Feds.</p>
<p>Now there are two problems: one is that benefits are not correlated to investments.  Thus unless benefits are reduced to correspond to the actual size of the investment, the investment fund will indeed be drained eventually.</p>
<p>The second problem is that as the SSA tries to redeem the treasury bonds, taxpayers will have to fund this.  This is the &#8220;pyramid&#8221; aspect &#8212; and this is what LBJ did.</p>
<p>Basically, in the 50s and 60s taxes were artificially lowered: instead of collecting taxes the government took a big loan from the SSA.  In a few years, the loan will have to be repaid at which point today&#8217;s young taxpayers will have to pay for the spending when taxes should have been higher.  The problem is not with the SSA but with the Treasury, which counts social security taxes as income instead of counting the &#8220;trust fund&#8221; as part of the national debt.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynical In CA</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227388</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynical In CA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227388</guid>
		<description>bobzbob, you need to brush up on your history.

&quot;Dependent on DC&quot; by Charlotte Twight is a good read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bobzbob, you need to brush up on your history.</p>
<p>&#8220;Dependent on DC&#8221; by Charlotte Twight is a good read.</p>
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		<title>By: perlhaqr</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227367</link>
		<dc:creator>perlhaqr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227367</guid>
		<description>Lee: At least with a Ponzi scheme I have the choice of whether to join in or not.

(Anyone who is planning on responding with &quot;you can choose not to work&quot; can just go ahead and fuck right off.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee: At least with a Ponzi scheme I have the choice of whether to join in or not.</p>
<p>(Anyone who is planning on responding with &#8220;you can choose not to work&#8221; can just go ahead and fuck right off.)</p>
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		<title>By: Optimizing Your Social Security Retirement Benefits &#124; Accounting Solutions</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227362</link>
		<dc:creator>Optimizing Your Social Security Retirement Benefits &#124; Accounting Solutions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227362</guid>
		<description>[...] The Agitator » Blog Archive » Madoff for Social Security &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Agitator » Blog Archive » Madoff for Social Security &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227349</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227349</guid>
		<description>No actually it was a savings plan. There was a &quot;Trust Fund&quot; for decades, till the 60&#039;s. LBJ took the money, to pay for Welfare and Viet Nam, and replaced it with an IOU. The rest is history. It is now totally a Ponzi Scheme and anyone under 45 or 50 is pretty much screwed</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No actually it was a savings plan. There was a &#8220;Trust Fund&#8221; for decades, till the 60&#8217;s. LBJ took the money, to pay for Welfare and Viet Nam, and replaced it with an IOU. The rest is history. It is now totally a Ponzi Scheme and anyone under 45 or 50 is pretty much screwed</p>
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		<title>By: bobzbob</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2009/01/05/madoff-for-social-security-administrator/comment-page-1/#comment-227329</link>
		<dc:creator>bobzbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11643#comment-227329</guid>
		<description>Actually no it doesn&#039;t make sense.  Social security has always advertised that it was a pay as you go system, where income from current payroll taxes goes to pay current retirees.  It was never a savings or investment vehicle.  Maddof on the other hand claimed to be investing his client&#039;s money, not paying off previous investors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually no it doesn&#8217;t make sense.  Social security has always advertised that it was a pay as you go system, where income from current payroll taxes goes to pay current retirees.  It was never a savings or investment vehicle.  Maddof on the other hand claimed to be investing his client&#8217;s money, not paying off previous investors.</p>
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