TheAgitator.com
BART Shooting
Monday, January 5th, 2009There’s been quite a bit of discussion in the comments about this video.
I know only what everyone else does, which is what’s in the news report.
My take: The way the officer who fired his gun throws his hands in the air after firing the shot, it looks like an accident—that he didn’t intend for the gun to go off. If that’s the case, I suspect the investigation will center around whether it was proper for him to have drawn the gun in the first place.
Radley, the “investigation” will center around blaming the victim and the person who took the video, and exonerating the officer. I think you know this by now, right?
What the investigation *should* center around is how truthful they were, and why they stole people’s cell phones who had been taking video, and where all those videos are. That should bring felony charges of destruction of evidence (oh, did they really retain those so that the investigation would have all the evidence available?) but we know it won’t.
My prediction: public outcry, officer put on desk duty, some simple charge against him, cleared by grand jury, back to work in a couple of months.
I’m going to guess he mistook the gun for his taser
But I thought cops are highly trained people, especially with firearms, and Citizen Nothings should be disarmed because we will be “protected” by said highly trained cops?
Either that, or he mistook the victim for a puppy.
“mistook gun for taser” = negligent homicide
Michael Chaney,
Was going to post the same thing. All IA investigations center on “How can we clear our guy?”
The video is kind of grainy for me, but it sure looks like he racks the slide back before the “accident” happens. Do you have to “rack the slide” when you take out handcuffs or a taser? I doubt it.
Mistakenly shot!? That was cold blooded murder. Not a damn thing about this was an accident. That cop should have been arrested on the spot.
I agree 100% with Michael Chaney. But furthermore, I’m sure whatever public outcry there is will be equally matched by the other side claiming that the victim got what he deserved because he was fighting on the train (allegedly). They’ll ignore and/or deny the fact that he was clearly complying with the officers.
It seems reasonable to assume that the officer didn’t mean for the gun to go off. But why the hell did he draw it in the first place. If indeed it was an accident, the officer is still responsible. I’m not sure that he should go to jail (which he won’t anyway); but he should lose his job and his pension.
Absolutely horrifying.
Where’s the riots?
Americans have become a bunch of indolent pussys.
ktc2: Riots are really counterproductive. They just cause damage to your own place of residence, and piss off potential allies.
“But furthermore, I’m sure whatever public outcry there is will be equally matched by the other side claiming that the victim got what he deserved because he was fighting on the train (allegedly). They’ll ignore and/or deny the fact that he was clearly complying with the officers.”
I tortured myself over lunch by reading the comments on some of the stories and that is exactly what is happening. It’s unbelievable! There are also those who don’t believe that a 22 year old with a child should be out at 2 AM on New Year’s Eve and, therefore, brought it on himself.
“it sure looks like he racks the slide back before the “accident” happens.”
Wayne, I looked at it again after reading your comment and it looks like that to me too. Whatever he was doing with his left hand on the weapon, it seems like it should have alerted him that he had a gun instead of a taser in his hand.
Looks like he covered his ears because the damn shot was so loud, or he was like “shit I thought I was aiming at his kneecap”.
Either way there are three possible outcomes:
1. It was an accident, the weapon misfired (first time it has happened, and it can’t be reproduced), or because he was sweating, and his finger slipped from the guard to the trigger causing it to fire. A civilian would get manslaughter, he’ll get some training.
2. He felt threatened, because it sounded like barking coming from the victim as the other cop pressed his knee into his neck. A civilian would get 2nd degree murder, he’ll get extra training.
3. He murdered him, because the victim called him a pig. A civilian would get 1st degree murder, he’ll get a promotion.
In all honesty just because he threw his hands up does not appear to be a defence of it being an accident. He drew the weapon with intent to use it. As many of us have heard do not draw a weapon unless you intend to shoot something.
If you watch the video of the police chief he clearly states that they wear the TASER and the sidearm on different sides if so armed. This would prevent him accidentally drawing a gun instead of the TASER.
Unfortunately we have seen a cop tell a man to get up, and as he did slowly shoot him 3 times and get nothing, but a pat on the back afterwards.
http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_webb29.3ffad56.html
This kind of controversy would never have happened back in the old days before cell phone cameras when cops all carried throw-downs. Of course, the new style of internal “investigation” negates the need for throw-downs…
Guns don’t “just go off” accidentally. The cop had to aim his weapon at the victim, place his finger on the trigger, and then apply steady pressure to the trigger. Saying that he didn’t intend to shoot would be liking cutting someone’s throat with a knife and then saying you didn’t intend for him to bleed to death.
Does anyone know how the safety slide on a Taser works? I have been googling and the directions at some of the sites say that you pull the safety slide back. I’d like to know if the action in doing so is the same kind of action of “racking back the slide” referred to above by Wayne.
I’m pretty sure he wasn’t racking the slide. It didn’t look like that to me and usually police procedure is to have the pistol hot, with one in the pipe so there should have been no need to rack the slide. If he thought it was a Taser he wouldn’t have needed to rack the slide since Tasers have no such things.
It looked to me as though he was having trouble pulling the pistol out of its holster so he used his left hand to keep the holster down by his hip while he drew the pistol out of the holster
This guy should be charged, definitely. I think that he probably thought it was a TASER, but even if that’s the case, there is some serious negligence involved. The reason I think he thought it was a TASER is that he fires in the direction of two other officers, and I don’t think even the most terribly trained cop would do that deliberately.
It’s irrelevant whether it was a gun or taser, you don’t aim and fire a weapon at something you don’t intend to shoot. Therefore it was intentional to aim and shoot the weapon. It’s an even more air tight argument because cops are supposedly psychologically profiled to make sure they can handle the job, are of high character, they go through continual training and evaluation, etc. to make sure they are fit for the job. We all know it to be bullshit, but that is the line that is given.
It’s possible that a round was already chambered in the holstered gun, which means you don’t have to rack the slide to chamber one. Bottom line is that the gun was drawn, aimed, and trigger pulled, which are all very intentional acts. If the cop “thought it was something that wasn’t his pistol”, then it’s negligent homicide, he should be fired, lose pension, and have charges brought against him. They receive training, see my above statement.
Glenn,
Are you looking at the exact part when the gun discharges? I thought that I saw his left hand make the motion with the gun almost at the same time that he fires–well after he unholsters it. That’s why I’m wondering how the safety slide on a taser works. Instead of intentionally chambering a round, is it possible he believed he was pulling back the safety slide of a taser and was doing so with his finger on the trigger?
I feel this was murder plain and simple! However, I also had the thought that perhaps he thought he had a tazer. Either way, he should never have pulled a weapon when they had the suspect under controll, especially with all the other cops that were there! All these cops should be in jail waiting for trial.
My reaction was similar to that of attorney Burris. I have had the experience of dealing w/ a suspect on the ground (if a suspect has been combative, it is usually best to deal w/ them on the ground where it is more difficult for them to strike at you with full force). At that point, having anything in your hands can be a hinderance. Bringing a gun into this situation just doesn’t make sense to me at all. I am glad that witnesses quickly made video available to the media though, since most agencies do not have appropriate bodies in place to impartially investigate police-inolved incidents.
“ktc2: Riots are really counterproductive. They just cause damage to your own place of residence, and piss off potential allies.”
Absolutely correct, ktc2. Riots discourage rational discussion about issues like police use of force. If you really WANT a police state, go ahead and make glib comments about riots. If you want more blood, not to mention a free-for-all for thieves, thugs and vigilantes, make noise about “long, hot, summers” (or winters, as it were). To close, here’s some a little ditty from my man Jello Biafra:
Riot-the unbeatable high
Riot-shoots your nerves to the sky
Riot-playing into their hands
Tomorrow you’re homeless
Tonight it’s a blast
-The Dead Kennedys
Rule #1 of guns: you don’t point a gun at something which you don’t intend to kill. Even if you’re a cop.
At best: negligent homicide. Reality: off the hook, possibly with an award for the hard work.
Agree with many of the above comments. It could have been an accident, but even if that’s true it should be treated as negligent homicide.
Most of the cops I know carry with a round chambered.
So if we go with the ‘thinking its a taser’ idea (which does not seem too far fetched), he probably had his finger on the trigger thinking it was a taser (and the safety needed to be turned off) and then killed the poor kid squeezing on the trigger.
But then…why would he be pointing a taser at someone’s HEAD?
Not too get too whiney (and government expansionists) but is there some sort federal law that can be applied when the local yokals are too busy covering their ass to actually administer justice?
Accidental discharges happen, even to experienced police officers and military men. A little adrenaline and a little pressure on the trigger is all it takes.
I can’t emphasize this enough: Keep your finger outside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire. Or, as a friend says a little less elegantly, “KEEP YOUR BOOGER HOOK OFF THE BANG SWITCH!!!!”
#25: Lee: Not too get too whiney (and government expansionists) but is there some sort federal law that can be applied when the local yokals are too busy covering their ass to actually administer justice?
Sure. In a case where a civil rights violation may have occurred, the feds can definitely step in, as they did in the aftermath of the Rodney King incident. It won’t be the same as trying the defendant(s) for negligent homicide, as some commenters have suggested, but it is still a measure that can be used to sanction abuse of power.
Its my guess that these guys don’t carry Tazers
it’ll be interesting to see if a race component enters the mix- I’m wondering if there hasn’t been excessive violence by this cop directed at minorities in the past…
I’m with Helmut, when you have someone on the ground, it makes no sense to pull a gun. I’ve been to defensive medicine classes (how to protect yourself from violent, intoxicated, psych, etc patients) and we’ve had good success restraining people, especially when they’re on the ground. what makes this look particularly bad is how cooperative the guy appeared to be prior to be knocked down.
if justice isn’t served, I’ll be stunned if there isn’t a riot.
Condolences to the family- this is horrible.
Recordings of the shooting by witnesses have surfaced and Burris said BART had confiscated numerous cell phone images from others he believes contain additional footage.
The “accidental discharge” theory is bullshit, as is the Tazer theory. A modern firearm in good condition being properly handled simply doesn’t fire unless you pull the trigger. Even a gun with a relatively light trigger pull still demands intent unless you’re doing something unbelievably stupid. What Airforce describes at #27 is not an accidental discharge, its pulling the trigger in the heat of the moment. If a civilian does that its murder, that doesn’t change if the irresponsible party happens to be wearing blue.
The Tazer theory fails because Tazers feel different in the hand, have a different shape, and a different balance than a pistol. On top of that virtually all of them have some kind of bright neon coloring on them somewhere.
Not to mention the glaring fact that Oscar Grant was NOT a threat by any means. 4 cops, 1 of them kneeling on his neck/upper back, he’s laying face down with hands out and in visible sight. There isn’t a single reason that warrants pulling a gun OR a taser. You don’t have to be a state thug to understand this fact. Cops supposedly receive training, so supposedly they are supposedly able to supposedly handle adrenaline/risk/etc. far more than Citizen Nothings. If a cop is risk averse, then he should be in another line of work. You and I would be arrested on murder charges if you replace the cops with you and your friends making a citizen arrest.
The problem is the system. Because cops, prosecutors, and judges KNOW that there is a 99.9% chance that they can’t be held liable for their actions, it breeds an attitude of arrogance, self importance, hero complex, and criminal behavior. To expect anything else is being naive at best, stupid in the middle, and evil at worst.
The situation is sad on both sides. A family has lost a loved one and an officer has killed a man and can probably say goodbye to his career even if he didn’t intend to kill him. How did it get to this point? A stupid fight on a Bart train. A word to the friends of the victim: I hope it was well worth it and that you will feel guilt for the rest of your life because your stupidities lead to this. In my opinion, you are as responsible for his death as the officer and should be accountable for it just like you want the officer to be. Bart should file charges against these young men and make these stupid idiots pay for stopping the Bart train dispatching officers etc…..Make the list as long as John Burris ‘list and fight back by suing Burris and this stupid idiots for 30 Millions dollars. Yes the officer screwed up Big Time. Trust me he’s probably not feeling his best right now. Let’s talk now about John Burris (A shark smelling blood). You really think he cares about what happened. HELL NO!!! He’s going pro-bono and already calculating how much money he’s going to get out this. We the people (Riders + Alameda County residents) are going to pay this family $25 millions. I don’t think so! Bart will most likely lay off people as a result of this since the agency is already in the RED.
A word to the family: “NO Huge amount of money will bring him back. Mourn your son, boyfriend, and father but don’t go on with the lawsuit. Seriously he passed away 4 days ago and you are already asking for $25 millions. Really??!!!
I’m a mother and would feel so guilty if I was trying to profit from my son’s death. I also believe in Karma and so should you.
I hope all of you find peace in your heart soon and go on with your life.
A long time resident of Oakland.
Please, enough already with the “accidental” language!
There is no such thing as an “accidental discharge”. Any time a modern gun in good repair fires, it is because of deliberate human action. If the shot is untinentional, it is a negligent discharge.
Exoneration and Promotions
Just watch
Oh yea, redistribution of wealth as well
Am I the only one here who thinks that the platform surveillance video wouldn’t be unavailable if Grant had shot the officer?
The other video, shot by the chick, shows the female officer coming after the camera-woman. She hops back on the train and and says something to the effect of “I’ve got you you motherf*cker, this is going on Youtube.”
Want to make a bet we’d have never heard of this if those two kids had not had the vague idea of freedom from opression and handed over their cameras?
This is how a cop blatantly kills a victim then gets promoted.
The vid is kinda long, but the narration very precise in what is happening. You need to watch it all to hear what the lies and cover ups were it is truly amazing.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d7_1177257949
A word to the friends of the victim: I hope it was well worth it and that you will feel guilt for the rest of your life because your stupidities lead to this. In my opinion, you are as responsible for his death as the officer and should be accountable for it just like you want the officer to be. Bart should file charges against these young men and make these stupid idiots pay for stopping the Bart train dispatching officers etc.
This type of “spread the blame”thinking is scary. If taken to its logical end, it means that no non-clairvoyant should ever interact with anyone else, as you can never predict what anyone in a group might do.
For starters, we don’t know really know anything about the fight on the train, who it was between, who was involved(i.e. it could have been one guy in Grant’s group fighting someone else, and the PD were called in to sort it out), who was the instigator, etc. Even if they were the instigators of the fight, so long as none of them drew a firearm and shot a person on the ground, they aren’t culpable for that action.
“KEEP YOUR BOOGER HOOK OFF THE BANG SWITCH!”
Best slogan of 2009 so far.
Yes, we all know standard operating procedure for cops-circling-the-wagons-time. The Blue Line has tried and true practices for what to say and what to do and how to lie to escape prosecution.
You can be for or against riots, but you cannot argue the point that Americans are pussies.
I wonder how the other cops feel about having a gun fired while they’re all in pretty close proximity to the target. If the bullet ricocheted off the floor and penetrated the victim a second time, then it could just as easily have bounced up and killed anyone else in the vicinity.
/ignore “Really???” troll
and yes, guns go off by accident, no matter what you want to think about them, no matter how calm the situation, no matter how controlled you think you are. “Oops” happens way too often which is why you’re supposed to keep it pointed away until ready to fire. I’ve seen videos (plural!) of cops shooting themselves, shooting concrete, shooting nothing. I’ve seen people at the range lower their weapon to say something and had it go off, I’ve been out shooting in the back forty and had my sweaty finger slip off the trigger guard on a shotgun I was holding too tight and not paying attention to (barrel whacked me in the lip…thought I’d shot myself…and I’ve got years of military behind me). I’ve seen “empty” guns go off, I’ve seen someone turn around and miss their friend by inches, I’ve had a .22 whiz by my ear and turned to look at my friend who had the stupid #$$^% “oops” look on his face.
Drop the argument that it couldn’t be accidental because you think there had to have been forethought, you’re wrong about that. There are plenty of other things to argue about and focus on, this isn’t one of them.
‘I’m a mother and would feel so guilty if I was trying to profit from my son’s death. I also believe in Karma and so should you.’
I’m a father and I would feel guilty if I didn’t try to fix the mistakes that led to my child’s death. When you’ve been wronged, the proper course of action is to take it to court. I’m amazed these people haven’t tried to get instant gratification and rioted- I can’t imagine the pain and anger the family must be feeling. As Mack points out in #39, even kids not involved in the crimes are safe from rogue (or incompetent) cops.
Videotaping cops is looking more and more like a necessary item to protect us from govt abuse- this case wouldn’t even be discussed without the bystander video.
Just another minor data point:
I don’t pretend to know what weapon these particular cops carry, but *most* LE-issue pistols are DAO (and if not, are DA/SA). That first shot requires a long, deliberate trigger pull.
I find all of these cop-shoots-peon stories to be incredibly depressing, for too many reasons to list.
It’s only a matter of time before photographing public servants is a crime. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if government doesn’t eventually control it by regulating the manufacturers of the cameras.
When the world is filled with photographic eye-witnesses, no one in government is safe.
@Sam: I shoot a lot, I’ve trained beginners, and I can say that in the hundreds of thousands of rounds I’ve shot or supervised I’ve only seen a firearm go off without someone pulling the trigger once (the gun in question was a 70 year old Walther that had seen very poor upkeep). Each of the “accidental” discharges you’ve mentioned were instances of negligence. Holding your gun to tight and happen to squeeze the trigger as a result? Thats not an accident, thats being a fuck up. Spin around in the booth and point a gun at the guy behind you without thinking? Again, not an accident but negligence. “Empty” gun goes off? Thats plain old fashioned carelessness or an inability to count.
The bottom line is that the cop either intentionally murdered this young man or he was so incredibly irresponsible that he murdered him carelessly while stroking his own ego by flexing his authority. In either case the only place he belongs is on the end of a short rope hanging from a high branch.
Really??,
Please go start your own country. This is America, where people go to court to be compensated for their wrongful losses (and files lawsuits quickly to prevent destruction of evidence as best they can). Where people are held responsible for THEIR actions, and the incidents and misdeeds of others which brought them to that point are not relevant. Where lawyers are financially incentivized to pursue the legal rights of others and whether or not they CARE about the case before them is not important (other than in the mind of f&#kstick morons like you, who incidentally wouldn’t hesitate to call the “slimiest” (read: best) lawyer you could afford were it your ass in the sling).
Not that you would ever retrun to this site and expose yourself as the intellectual lightweight incapable of consistent or cogent thought articulation that you are, but if you can explain under what legal theory you would sue Attorney Burris I’ll give you a shiny new quarter! It can be first piece of currency in your new country called “The People’s Republic of illogical accountability on all people with baggy pants and lawyers, but absolutely none for police officers-istan.”
Oh god, and you’re a mother, I can’t imagine what sort of BS you feed to your children about what “freedom” is or what it means to be an American. Easy on them, they’re not exactly drawing from the deep end of the intellectual gene pool to begin with.
William, that’s precisely my point.
Another point about the “accidental” shooting. I used to be a competitive smallbore shooter. The rifle I shot with had a 3.5oz trigger, ie it took 3.5oz of pressure to release the shot. It is amazing. You think about it and the shot releases. One day I was having a terrible round. I slammed the bolt closed a little too hard and the shot released. Scared the shiat out of me. I learned a lesson.
Standard service pistols have a trigger pull of 3.5 to 5 POUNDS. Double action revolvers have a pull of 10-14lbs Those cops should have fired that pistol enough to know where the release point is, and they should also be familiar enough with the grip to know the difference between their tazer and their service weapon.
This guy should rot in jail. He made a terrible mistake and should be held to a higher standard than a civilian.
#34, i think you need to research the difference between “pro bono” and “contingency”, because your comment is incredibly stupid.
last night, the sf chronicle identified the officer as johannes mehserle. i googled it and found a johannes mehserle as a user on harmony-central.com, a classified ads site, with his email listed as jmehserle@sbcglobal.net. the bart people still haven’t interviewed him (going on six days now) so maybe mr. balko can get him to tell his story here.
I cannot see any reason why the gun ever needed to come out of the holster here.
“Accidental discharge” does not matter, to me this is at least negligent homicide.
I wonder how many more videos like this we would see if the camera could stream the video off site as it was being recorded. I want the cops to fear being recorded and be totally unable to stop it.
The email address needs to be removed, that may be pig farmer in Iowa for all we know.
I agree with those who believe this was most likely an accident but the cop was negligent for waiving the gun around for apparently no reason. I seriously doubt the cop was suddenly overcome by an urge to assassinate a detained person in front of many witnesses. It doesn’t even look to me like he was aiming the gun. It looks like he is just taking it out of the holster and it is pointing down when it goes off, which unfortunately is where the victim was.
BTW there is a great show on Bravo (I think) called “Rookies” about local police on their first days of work that will make you seriously question that actual amount of training and ability police officers have when they are sent out on their own with their squad car and weapon. Many of these people are recent school teachers or accountants just trying out a new career. Very scary.
[...] who is a wonderful watchdog hounding bad law enforcement practitioners and their practices, offers this seemingly more charitable take… The way the officer who fired his gun throws his hands in the air after firing the shot, it looks [...]
If you or I ‘accidently’ killed someone, we wouldn’t get off by claiming
that it was an unfortunate accident. We’d go to jail.
Cops should be held to the same standard as average citizens. That
officer needs to be convicted of homicide and he should go to prison.
Why the handcuffs after the shooting?
Dave: Zombies.
Although the majority of unintentional discharges stem from negligence, there are many that do not. On the other hand, unintentional discharges which do not involve negligence by the shooter very seldom cause any injury or unwanted property damage.
Re: Taser confusion
I found this at a police site:
http://www.policeone.com/police-products/less-lethal/taser/articles/1772254-BART-shooting-raises-issue-of-TASER-confusion/
Police are and should be held to a high standard of knowledge of the law and behavior within the law.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
The rules for use of deadly force are a matter of law.
That he “accidentally” pulled his firearm instead of a taser is irrelevant. At any point in which an officer presumes to use DEADLY FORCE (which includes a taser) he or she should be in ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT WHAT TOOL THEY ARE USING AND WHY.
Although police are imbued with certain authority to render bodily harm in the course of their duties, that are not allowed to intentionally murder an individual. Therefore any “mistakes” resulting in death or injury should be investigated under a different light of responsibility than the average person.
Police who violate the law or who act negligently should be crushed like the vermin the are? (The Furmen, as in Mark, they are?)
I doubt deadly force was an acceptable use of authority.
# 34 You’re a supposed MOTHER! I WOULD LIKE FOR YOUR SON/DAUGHTER TO BE ACCIDENTLY SHOT TO DEATH LEAVING A 4 YEAR CHILD BEHIND AND SEE HOW YOU REACT~ STUPID A*@.
If you look at the video, the cop CLEARLY pulls his gun out and points it at this young mans back. Someone said he wasn’t pointing it. Look at the video again, closely. It’s obvious!
the cop wil get away with it. thay have the law and establishment on there side. this happens all the time. we just see the ones tht were video taped..
If the “I thought I was using my TASER” defence is allowed, it’ll be a premier excuse from now on.
this is outrageous, and I hope the officer is punished to the fullest extent of the law. furthermore, why is do BART police have the same if not more jurisdiction as real police, yet NO public oversight committee??? BART NEEDS TO GO UNDER SEVERE SCRUTINY FOR THIS SEVERE CRIME COMMITTED AGAINST THE PEOPLE!!!
LISTEN… I’M AN OLD GUY IN ANOTHER STATE.
I ALSO WAS IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, SO I’M SUSPICIOUS OF THE POLICE NOT INTERROGATING THE OFFICE AFTER AN OFFFICER INVOLVED SHOOTING, WITHIN FOUR HOURS AS IS THE LAW IN S.F. AS WELL AS IN MOST OTHER AREAS IN THE COUNTRY.
I HAVE A CCW AND LEGALLY CARRY A SECRET SERVICE VERSION SVI INFINITY .45.
HERE’S MY TWO CENTS.
THE COP’S SERVICE WEAPON AND THE TASER DO HAVE A DIFFERENT WEIGHT. THAT’S WHAT IS SO CRAZY ABOUT THIS.
THE PISTOL (AND I ASSUME IT’S A GLOCK) IS HEAVIER, BECAUSE OF THE ROUNDS OF AMMO.
UNFORTUNATELY, A GLOCK IS THOUGHT BY MANY GUN EXPERTS AS UNSAFE AS IT HAS A TWO PIECED DUAL TRIGGER COMBINATION SAFETY.
STAGE ONE… 1/2 PULL TRIGGER #1 … RELEASES THE SAFETY.
STAGE TWO COMPLETE PULL, RELEASES TRIGGER #2 AND FIRES THE WEAPON. THAT IS WHAT APPARENTLY HAPPENED. HE PUSHED THE FIRST TRIGGER BACK TO RELEASE THE SAFETY AND PUSHED TOO FAR.
THE TASERS ARE CARRIED ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OIF THE BODY IN A CROSS DRAW. THAT’S A VERY HARD MISTAKE TO FATHOM, BUT IF HE WAS BRAIN FOGGED OR PANICKY… COULD HAPPEN.
I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THERE MIGHT ALSO BE A MECHANICAL SAFETY ON THE SIDE OF THE TASER WEAPON, BUT IF IT’S A GLOCK, I’M NOT SURE.
REGARDLESS, THE YOPUNG MAN WAS COMPLIANT, NOT A MEMBER OF THE FIGHTING GROUP AND ONLY A WAITING PASSENGER, SITTING ON THE PLATFORM, WHO MISTAKENLY GOT SWEPT UP BY THE COPS FOR NO APPARENT REASON.
THIS COP HAD NO REASON TO PULL A TASER AS A TASER IS A VERY DANGEROUS DEVICE, ALTHOUGH IT IS CALLED NON-LEATHAL, IT CAUSES AN ELECTRICALLY CHARGED SEIZURE OF THE CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.
THIS IS ONLY WARRANTED IN LIFE THREATENING SITUATIONS WHERE DEADLY FORCE IS NOT AN OPTION.
THE COP SCREWED UP, AND SHOULD DO 3-5 YEARS IN PRISON FOR NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE, OR IF IT WAS INTENTIONAL, SHOULD GET LIFE.
VERY SIMPLE.
WHY ALL THE BS FROM THE SFPD?
FINALLY ALL TASERS SHOULD BE RETROFITTED AND PAINTED ORANGE. THAT WILL AVOID ANY ACCIDENTS, BETTER YET, THEY ALL SHOULD BE TOSSED IN THE GARBAGE AS THEY ARE PROVEN TO CAUSE HEART ATTACKS, EPILEPSY AND DEATH.
GO BACK TO THE BILLY CLUB. IT’S SIMPLE AND IT BEATS THE CRAP OUT OF THUGS.
ALSO, THIS MAN SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN A COP. REGARDLESS.
REMEMBER… ALWAYS TRY PEACE FIRST, NOT PIECE.
PEACE IN 2009.
STOP BOTH THUGS AND POLICE BRUTALITY.
Chuck,
You need to ease up on the all caps, man. We’re on *your* side, remember?
I agree Chuck…..Nothing like a good piece of hickory
Ken, A tazer is considered an intermediate weapon. It is not on the same level as deadly force as it only causes disfunction.
We now know that the BART officer has resigned, but that the “investigation” will continue, as well as a $multi-million lawsuit against BART.
Ken,
“Although police are imbued with certain authority to render bodily harm in the course of their duties, that are not allowed to intentionally murder an individual.”
True in the case of “murder,” but substitute “kill” (same result for the victim as murder) and your statement is false. Police officers are licensed by the State to kill in the line of duty according to their judgment and subject to peer review if there is no personal gain and no clear malintent.
This particular case might fall under manslaughter or negligent homicide, but I doubt strongly that any prosecutor would press such serious charges. This officer probably pleads to some low-grade felony like 4th-degree manslaughter and gets probation.
“Therefore any “mistakes” resulting in death or injury should be investigated under a different light of responsibility than the average person.”
A common refrain on this blog is “should.” Should should should. I believe it is more constructive to discuss what “is.” Then a plan of action can be formed. As I have posted in other comment sections, police officers are going to use every advantage granted to them by the State, with their self-preservation paramount.
Some questions:
How can the average citizen navigate these facts? Is the very existence of police forces the problem? What alternatives are there? Are alternatives even possible?
“Police who violate the law or who act negligently should be crushed like the vermin the are?”
Again, by whom? Don’t forget, though, police who turn criminal are dealt with firmly by the State. The State does not tolerate infringements on its monopoly of violence, else it ceases to exist. This is very different, however, from a police officer who kills in the line of duty — the State will vigorously defend these officers from all comers, your opinion and anyone else’s who concurs with you be damned.
“I doubt deadly force was an acceptable use of authority.”
If it were for you to decide, you wouldn’t even have to offer an opinion. But we’ll see how the case turns out.
For the record, a million people marching in the street can create a temporary mini-State and effect a desired outcome in a given situatiion against the wishes of the State. But the power of the true State is apparently eternal.
I just saw the video and i must say that cops in that video are so lame and unproffesional that it hurts, i mean they acted like bunch of school kids….shooting was clearly an accident, but if i was the chief of those guys and a girl cop they would only work as garbage disposal unit. Did they had any training or schooling ??
sorry for my english im from europe
Accidental, kind of yes, his finger slipped or twitched or something. But the main thing is, there was no need for him to draw his gun and point it at this young man, no need whatsoever. In all the excitement he decides to emulate his heroes on the TV and the movies and pull his gun out in order to make himself feel like a real live action hero. He could very easily have shot himself, a fellow officer or a passerby. Grossly unprofessional.
I too believe it was a tragic accident that cost a young man his life. I understand pulling a trigger is no accident. What I believe is that he thought he was pulling the trigger of a taser instead of a gun.
But many many problems must be fixed so this doesn’t happen again. The cop should just turn himself in and admit what he did.
All law enforcement tasers should be universal and clearly marked per STATE law. Taking a life is no easy task. This cop would have to be totally without emotion to commit murder. His REACTION after the gun fired is very telling. It goes off and you can SEE his eyes open WIDE. He then looks down as to verify what he was holding. He then appears to put his hands on his knees as to say, “what have I just done”
I’m no cop lover that’s for sure. Yet, I can’t reach the level of saying this was a murder just yet. I need to hear, good or bad, what the hell was he thinking when he reached for a weapon on his holster. Be it gun or taser…I would like to hear what was he thinking when he reached for a weapon (of any type).
If he says he felt threatened then I say fry the guy. There is no way ANY cop would have felt threatened in that situation. If he says I thought it was the taser then that supports what I feel happened.
He would be a fool to reach for his weapon and say, “I’m gonna shoot this guy in the back and murder him with hundreds of witnesses standing around.” I just don’t see him being that cocky to think he can get away with murder in that scenario.
Sam
“I just don’t see him being that cocky to think he can get away with murder in that scenario.” I agree, but if there was no video odds are he would have.
I will say it up front. I am a police officer. First my thoughts go out to Grants family for this tragic loss. I have watched this video so many times, and only wish for a better quality video each time.
Fact. This whole situation is unfortunate. People should have been having fun on new years, not fighting. Grant appeared to be compliant, so I must ask, why was he ordered to his stomach? That said, why do people insist on resisting? Why not just get on his stomach and put his hands behind his back.. Right wrong or indifferent to what he thought he should be doing, had he not resisted when they told him to get on his stomach, the officers would have been able to handcuff him easily. There is an obvious struggle which then takes place. I have carried a Taser for almost 4 years now. It is opposite my gun side, but not a cross draw. I train on drawing it many times, and actually although I am right handed, I use my taser left handed. I activate the Taser X26 with my left thumb to turn it on. (there is only a switch to turn it on, no safeties, and I agree they should all be bright yellow) This officer did draw, but I dont see any “racking” of a round. I dont know of a single agencie that allows an empty chamber on duty. He does use both hands and appears to aim and then shoot. This is a 3 foot shot. No officer in the world aims at 3 feet when shooting. We train in whats called point aim shooting. At this close distance one would point the pistol straight forward, hitting the suspect in the thoracic cavity. Anyways… It appears that the other officer (the one near Grants head) stands up. This is very common with a support officer when a Tasing is about to happen. It is the human fear of electricity. I truly think the officer was thinking of Tasing the officer, if in fact he carries a Taser. If he doesnt, Well then I have no clue why he would draw anything, as there is no way this was a justified shooting, unless some gun comes into play that nobody knows about yet. That said, it would be deemed as a negligent homicide. I guarentee from his actions, that the officer feels horrible.
I wont comment on some of the stupidity I have read here about riots and suing people and whether or not they are necessary. I will agree, as will most officers, we are in vast need of more training. Please vote yes on the budgets that you need to vote on so that we can have money to train more. Unfortunately when the vote is no, training is what gets cut.
Again,my thoughts go out to the victims family. Rioting does not solve anything…
The taser bythe way is a “less-than-lethal” tool as defined by the Government. In most agencies use of force pyramid, the taser is either just above pepper spray but below the baton, or at the same level as the baton. There are many issues with the taser that need to be thought of. The biggest issue is that people fail to realize that any tool in the wrong, or inexperienced hand, can cause serious injury or death. After the Rodney King incidident, nobody said take away batons, so why with the taser? Why, because people fear electricity more than a beating, because beatings have been around forever. The Taser if utilized correctly does provide an extra use of force, below shooting. Should we take away cars because a person drove drunk and killed someone? Deal with the individual, not the inanimate object. In the cases where death resulted from a taser, in almost 95% of those instances, there was some level of drug intoxication with the suspect, or inappropriate use of the taser by the officer. Of the some 38,000 police officers that have been tased in order to get certified (me included) none…NONE have died as a result. Each situation requires a specific review, not a simple theory that the device doesnt work.
[...] been suggested that the shooting was accidental — that the cop who pulled the trigger didn’t mean for his gun to go off, or thought he [...]
There are many things that bug me about this.
1) How do you (after training) negligently draw a weapon?
2)What the hell happened to using the least amount of force neccessary for a given situation? Are you telling me it’s standard procedure to use a taser on someone who is face down with two other cops on top of him? Since when?
3) Why isn’t this guy in jail? If I shot a guy who was being restrained by two other people in the back from two feet away accident or not, do I get to quit my job as a stay out of jail free card? I didn’t know about that law.
This whole thing just shows me that there are two justice systems in America. One for the rich, politicians, and cops. Where you don’t get arrested, probably won’t go to jail and if you do you don’t go to the same jail as the peasantry. The other one is for everyone else, who gets screwed and is presumed guilty by the system until they pay a good lawyer to (maybe) get them a fair trial.
I have read all of this plus i have seen the video. Im so dam tierd of everyone talking down the police. They are human just like the rest of us, and will make mistakes just like we do regardless of training. And yes this proves there needs to be more training. But each situation is so differant, that not all the training can prevent mistakes. Need to remember that mistakes are a series of events that cause them. We dont know how this man was acting prior to the video, BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT HE HAS PROIR PROBS WITH THE POLICE AND HE DID NOT LIKE THEM TO MUCH!!!, and we domt know what that officer was felling at time all of this was going down. I feel he ment to use his tazer and not his pistol.
“But furthermore, I’m sure whatever public outcry there is will be equally matched by the other side claiming that the victim got what he deserved because he was fighting on the train (allegedly). They’ll ignore and/or deny the fact that he was clearly complying with the officers.”
This is a quote taken from an earlier post. I’ve found that the argument now shifts from the murder of an immobilized unarmed man in plane sight of numerous witnesses, to the minor property crimes that followed. As if nobody died and it’s a matter of “violent anarchists”. As far as I’m concerned, that arguument makes you a racial supremacist. Why not just face that fact.
Nah. He stands with his weapon already drawn. Takes a slight aim and fires. He never puts his hands up. He simply admired his work.
It appears the officer snap chambered a round in his gun and it accidently discharged like that DEA agent did in the classroom thats on you tube . Would not be surprised if he had a Glock . No way he thought it was a taser if he chambered a round . If so it’s another case of an idiot Rambo type whose actions led needlessly to a death . You can see him bring his second hand over and motion as if he was chambering a round . Moron .
Most cops are just thugs that are to cowardly to be criminals.
Isn’t the police officer’s quitting his job an admission of guilt in a way?
In greece a cop kills a boy and the whole country riots, here it gets forgotten in 2 days, pitty for freedom, oh, what freedom? I would never give them my cell phone, I would rather break it.
The problem here is social conditioning PPL. As a progressive thinker I hate to see this as a B/W thing, and I certainly don’t want to hear of any innocent person gunned down in the prime of life regardless of their race.
But ask yourself why does this always happen to young Unarmed blk men? Do you remember Sean Bell, Robbie Tolan, Julian Alexander? Now Oscar Grant just to name a few.
America has a problem meting out fair, and impartial justice, We have often been the benefactors of inequity
#84… i would like to know who you call, when you are wronged by someone.. and if you reply, you get your own justice.. think of a world if we all did that… #85… if that is so.. then is everyone that wont give a statement and pleads the 5th amendment… guilty… Maybe he is so guilt stricken that he made a mistake that cost a life,, that he cant go on doing the job?
Doctors and Lawyers have made mistakes that cost lives, or failed to save them,….they do it everyday.. Do we damn them to hell and jail forever… The guy undoubtedly made a mistake… Dont put every cop in the same mixing bowl… every profession has their bad apples, every professional can make a mistake.. without the profession being a mistake… Otherwise, all football players are just like OJ, and Buris, and Vick…
The real issue seems to be was it murder or was it an accident?
In the end it will be up to a jury to decide that. However, there is a very real stigma when it comes to black males in this country. How often do I turn on the TV and see a black male robbing a store? I absolutely believe there is an agenda with media bias to denigrate black males.
They, the media, have a duty to keep everyone afraid. This is why they plaster black people killing white people 24/7 in this country. They, the government, have an obligation to keep this system of democracy going. The legal system is nothing more than legal slavery. Putting another black man in jail or killing another black man is basically the same thing as catching a runaway slave. They either beat a runaway slave or killed a runaway slave. No one every said my bad and let them go.
We all fall for the “divide” and “conquer” tactics the government and the media uses to control us. This accident should be a testament to change. How will you act? How will we all act?
I challenge everyone to put down the hate on both sides. Do what is right for once. Do what is right for Oscar. Black folk accept it was an accident. White folk accept there is a real problem in this country that was caused by your people.
Make no mistake people. They, the rich and powerful, control us all. And if they had to choose between their money and you….I’m willing to bet they will choose green before they choose black OR white. Madoff would put a bullet in the back of Paris Hilton if he thought he could keep his money and not be found out.
Change for Oscar in 2009. That should be the rallying cry for us all.
I see the discussion here seems to center on whether the officer intentionally meant to shoot Grant with his sidearm vs his taser, or that he had an “accidental discharge”. It really doesn’t matter. If he did it intentionally, then it’s 2nd degree murder. If it’s a mistake, then it’s voluntary manslaughter.
It is easy to come up with all kinds of excuses why Johannes Mehserle KILLED the young man after the fact.
We should not ever forget that a person’s life was taken away in the matter second, and Johannes Mehserle has to pay for it.
He stole a human life. We need to do a through investigation on Johannes. We should NEVER let this kind of brutality go ANYMORE!!! NO MORE!!! Johannes MEhserle WILL pay for what he did.
Johannes Mehserle stole a human life.
Whatever his motivation was, to him, a young man’s life was nothing more than a piece of trash. He will pay for this.
If we all believe in humanity, we have to make sure this kind of inhumane activity will not happen again (especially in the US, supposed to be a modern society? or just a society with buch of idiots pretend like they are better than others).
The policeman should be convicted of negligent homicide
at best, and perhaps worse. I think that is beyond question.
I think though, that this has gone beyond that. The police who
took the cell phones, the long delay…This is a problem that goes
even beyond this killing. I’m not from the bay area, but I’m
flabbergasted the policeman wasn’t arrested 2 weeks ago. So
this corruption extends to the head of the bart-police too and
all those above him. More heads need to role. All those
that confiscated cell phones should not be allowed to be police
either. And the head of the Bart Police ought to be fired for his
inept handling of this situation……….Why in god’s green earth
isn’t this getting more attention in the national news.
Having grown up in the bay, i have had my own run ins with BART police. These glorified security guards are inept and reckless. The thing i find most interesting is that despite numerous videos of the murder, this jerk was allowed to just quit and go home. He was finally arrested today, without the usual “perp walk” that would accompany a warrant like this. Cops have been killing young black males in the bay for decades. Now, as the chinese found out in Tianemon(sic) square, the video phone is the enemy of oppression.
Johannes Mehserle, the former BART police officer arrested on suspicion of murdering an unarmed passenger on an Oakland train platform early New Year’s Day, waived extradition at a Nevada hearing and will be returned to Alameda County sometime today.
Whelp…at least he is arrested now.
It is just a sick thing that a BART COP felt he had no other choice but to kill Oscar Grant III while he lay flat on his belly with his arms at his back.
Oscar was celebrating with his family in San Francisco on New Year’s Eve 2008.
For individual to say it was Oscar’s fault because he went out and celebrated and did not stay at home with his 4 year old daughter. Shame on those individuals.
Thomas Jefferson was the 3rd President of the United States and added to the Declaration of Independance, everyone has a right to life, liberty and justice and the pursuit of happiness.
Oscar Grant III had a right to be on that BART train like everyone else that New Year’s Eve night and get home safely to his daughter and family after a night of happiness. How many other individuals were on that train without their children and got home safely even the ones pulled from the train that same horrible New Year’s Eve night.
Thank God my children weren’t on that train, I take BARTwith my children which now makes me really question taking BART now!
My daughter and son would have freaked out if they saw that Murder happen in front of them and I am not saying that they would be there…but the what-if.
Everyone has a right to a trial but that BART COP used his weapon to kill Oscar Grant III instead of giving him the chance to go to Court in front of a Judge and tell him what went on that night.
This BART COP feels he has the right to take the fifth. Even though he stole that option from Oscar. Oscar will never have a second chance or even a chance to clear his mind, he stood in front of a death threat from this BART COP and died at the hospital. It was immediately, so he suffered at this BART COP’s hands.
Instead we have a BART COP that gets to stand behind the law for almost two weeks, after he MURDER someone (Oscar Grant III) and have two attorney’s resign for him, spend time with his girlfriend and have new born baby and go to Nevada to clear his mind.
While Oscar Grant’s family is trying to cope with not only losing a son, brother, grandson, friend, cousin, Daddy but also trying coping with Grant’s baby daughter, his 4 year old girl who is wondering where her father is and when will he be home. I have a 4 year old girl, they love their daddy’s to the point where my daughter would cry for him if she didn’t see him. My daughter cries and gets to see her father all the time. Grant’s daughter will never get to see her father or understand why until she gets older and then I am sure she won’t fully understand because it does not make sense and is a ruthless action.
All the while an attorney is trying to say that this COP deserves a fair trial, lets give him the same treatment that he showed Oscar.
…..no tape, video or cell phone video has captured that fight but everyone on BART that New Year’s Night seems to think that something went horrible wrong and that a BART COP murder a young man for no reason in cold blood.
This just happened to get caught on tape with citizens who believe in a higher justice then City Hall, D.A. Office, and State Governor’s Office. Thank God for the ones who stepped up to the table especially John Burris for taking this case. Instead, these cops can’t hide and all have the same story instead this was caught on tape.
This is not going to go away unless we up hold life, liberty and justice and the pursuit of happiness to a higher standard.
We all have to do the right thing and the right thing to do is to let the facts present themselves and make this BART COP face his Murder charges. Hopefully, he will be honest because it seems like his 9 other partners agree with the public and what he did that New Year’s Eve Night was wrong. He should be held to a higher standard because he took an oath to up hold the law and he did the opposite and kill that young man.
It is there on film and you can’t erase what we all saw and grateful to those who captured it on their cell phone.
FUCK THE PIGS. This is crazy. There are so many corrupt police officers. I’ve had run ins with them which would be considered just plain harassment. Giving me tickets for BS just because he had nothing else to arrest me with. This situation being the extreme is just disgusting. He will probably get a desk job and paid time off. Riots/protests will ensue and die down like all the other cases of police brutality. What is crazier is that CNN and yahoo and other pages don’t even have it on their front page anymore. I guess Swimming pool safety in January is more important than police murdering civilians.
Based on only what has been made known, this was negligent homicide and therefore manslaughter at the most. Murder specifically requires malice and intent to kill. The Officer never had to answer questions, just as anyone else would not have had to do so. Fugitive warrants are required for out of state arrests, fleeing or not. Most IAs are in fact conducted for legitimate reasons, and not to just cover up and exonerate. The ones that have been done in a corrupt manner over shadow the fair ones. There is no political leadership in Alameda County, or these things would have been made known early on. Some police get treated fairly when they commit wrongs, some get made scapegoats for what they did wrong along with whatever else the political cowards throw at them to supposedly satisfy the public, and the corrupt ones get protected, some of which become political leaders. This Officer unjustly killed a human being, but absence evidence of malice and intent, he did not commit murder.
When I first saw the video where Mehserle shot Grant, I assumed that it was some kind of “accidental discharge”. But now as I read about Mehserle’s father having anger management issues, Mehserle not cooperating with Internal Affairs, and Mehserle trying to make run for it, I firmly believe now that Mehserle lost his temper and murdered Oscar in cold blood. The feigned attempt of acting surprised by putting his hands up to his head was nothing more than “damage control”.
Here’s an Idea for everybody….Don’t do anything stupid and you won’t have to deal with the cops!!!!! If they hadn’t been fighting on bart, then none of those kids would have been anywhere near the cops to begin with….
How can people in the same breath, talk (or type) about how wrong it was for the police to take the cell phones, when all they did was use them to see what happened. In all rights, these videos will help shed light on the situation and what happened. Lets just think of what would have happened it the videos did not surface from whatever sources they did.. WE would never have a true account on what happened. This is the sort of reason why areas are trying to put up closed caption cameras to record everything.. Either way. Why wasnt there any video of the fight on the train? And dont argue that there wasnt.. the people involved in the fight, and or around it have already admitted to what was going on, while on the train. Maybe it is because we as a society are to accustomed to seeing this type of violence.. But as soon as the police show up, a whole bunch of videos are being taken.. Why is it that people want police to screw up so much.. to say what? we are corrupt for making a mistake? that if we make a mistake, we think we are higher than regular citizens? It is just not true for the hundred thousand officers you dont hear about. Not all officers are Mark Furman types. There is a code of honor out there of those that want to do the right thing no matter who is watching, or who is screwing up… Make this about whether or not this officer was in the wrong, or did he make a mistake. Dont make it about every officer.. or dont get mad if when I arrest a criminal, I say that everyone that wears the same type of clothes, or is the same color, is also a criminal..