TheAgitator.com
Toronto Bans Bottled Water
Thursday, December 4th, 2008[The] Council also agreed Tuesday to a series of packaging-reduction bylaws.
They include:
- A five-cent charge for every plastic bag customers use from a grocery or retail store starting in June;
- A ban on biodegradable and compostable plastic bags.
- A ban on retail bags with rope handles or metal grommets by the end of next year.
- A request the retailers also provide shoppers with alternatives to having the pay for a plastic bag, whether by providing cardboard boxes or paper sacks for shoppers.
Why would an environmentally-conscious city council ban “biodegradable and compostable plastic bags”?
Because they haven’t a clue as to what they are doing. It just sounds good to a certain faction. Goggle “dihydrogen monoxide” for an example.
Aren’t biodegradable plastic bags really an just evil corporate plot to sneak earth-destroying polymers past our vigilant selfless ecoguardians?
Yep. You guessed it. I pulled that right out of my ass.
In most landfills (airlocked), the bags are not biodegradable and compostable.
Another eco-scam like carbon offsets.
http://www.biobagusa.com/biodegradable-bags.html
Naked money grab for plastic bag revenue?
Toronto has to export all of its solid waste at immense cost. While they have curbside recycling and composting programs, waste reduction is the most cost effective method.
So exactly what are dog owners supposed to do?
They “have to”? They didn’t just choose to?
The biodegradable and compostable bags don’t work with plastic recycling systems. They actually cause problems when they get intermixed with recyclable materials.
Don’t worry. Such legislation will lead to MORE waste.
Regarding Canada, Father Guido Sarducci said it best.
Cynical me wonders if the ban on biodegradable and compostable bags isn’t also because they think people will think it’s ‘ok’ to use those types, and they want to get rid of ALL of them.
Ah, soon to be: blackmarket baggies, fake paper bags, and jails full of backwoods moon-baggers…
Fertilize.
I can’t quite rid myself of the thought that biodegradable plastic remnants will provide a nurturing environment for a mutated organism that can digest all plastics.
Because it’s not about saving the environment…..it’s about controlling behavior.
Ignorance? Does NE1 believe that NE1 elected to office can see for all the sh-t in their eyes from having their heads so far up?
I hope not.
I think one Mr George Carlin said it best when he said:
Did it occur to you for a second to look up the facts on biodegradable plastic before trying to smear people?
Did it occur to you for a second to share those facts with us for discussion instead of trying to play an unsupported game of rhetorical one-upmanship?
As far as I know biodegradable plastic requires UV light to break it down. Kind of hard for that light to penetrate through a covered landfill. Even newsprint has a problem degrading in these type of landfills.
Could the cardboard/paper bag preference be an effort to pump up Ontario’s ailing paper mills?
To be fair to my home town of T.O., it’s council has a huge hurdle in trying to come up with effective responses: billions upon billions in tax revenues flow out of the city to the provincial and and federal governments. We often can’t, say, invest $Xb in Y project to achieve Z result simply because Queen’s Park and Ottawa have nicked that $Xb (or three to four times that) to finance projects everywhere else but Toronto. There is NO repeat NO political downside in Canada to screwing Toronto in any way, especially fiscally. Everybody loves to hate T.O. but somehow that hate never extends to handing back any of our dirty money.
Leave the shit on the sidewalk I guess. Of course, then you’ll get a ban on dogs.
JWH:
“Because it’s not about saving the environment…..it’s about controlling behavior.”
Thats the bottom line right there. Politicos and the sheep they tend.
Begging the question Radley:
Why would an environmentally-conscious city council ban “biodegradable and compostable plastic bags”?
Doesn’t the government still subsidize recycling?
To all the people defending these policies on their merits, why not have these arguments and defend them on their merits BEFORE putting the force of gov’t behind them? Why not convince people that it’s the better thing to do? And how does banning re-usable shopping bags make any sense at all?
This continues to display ignorance as studies have shown that paper bags can have more of an impact than plastic. Paper takes up more space in a landfill and when lumped together and burried under a bunch of crap takes forever to degrade. Not to mention the manufacturing costs of said paper which has to include tree farms and paper mills which pollute water sources.
and cardboard boxes? seriously? off their rockers.
RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH! People love to FORCE, but hate it when the FORCE being applied to them is something they don’t agree with. Some call it hypocrisy — I believe this to be too tame, and call it EVIL.
Have you guys been to Toronto lately? It’s a lot more clean and pleasant than most American cities, despite several factors that usually work against such an atmosphere; a very large immigrant population, large income disparities in places, and a high population density. It’s not bad.
Several commenters have made the point about the BS that a biodegradable plastic bag is, but that aside; last time I was in Toronto I walked the entire city without feeling endangered once, and I saw people engaging in free speech and impromptu music everywhere, in ways that would certainly invite harassment around here. I saw a lot of freedom of movement, with good transportation systems provided at a decent price, something no-where to be found around here. The food was much better; even the pop is made with real sugar. Oh, and the cops I met smiled and said hi too, with real warmth. You know, serve and protect and all that. And of course, last I heard, the Canadian authorities had not declared the right to snatch you up and torture you.
Let’s face it people, freedom is not the freedom to get suckered by a scam and bury your children in garbage. I would say there is a real need for unobtrusive regulation in that respect. No, freedom is your freedom to speak, to move as you choose, to be treated with respect by those you have hired to be in authority, and to be healthy and happy. The US has fallen far behind in all of the ways that one could objectively measure freedom, and it’s time to stop worrying about your freedom to be a sucker, and start worrying about all of the freedoms that matter, which you are rapidly loosing as we speak.
FWIW, from the “Biodegradable Plastic” entry on Wikipedia, under “Advantages and Disadvantages”:
Under proper conditions biodegradable plastics can degrade to the point where microorganisms can metabolise them. This reduces problems with litter and reduces harmful effects on wildlife. However degradation of biodegradable plastic occurs very slowly, if at all, in a sealed landfill. Proper composting methods are required to efficiently degrade the plastic, which may actually contribute to carbon dioxide emissions.
Degradation of oil-based biodegradable plastics may contribute to global warming through the release of previously stored carbon as carbon dioxide. Starch-based bioplastics produced from sustainable farming methods can be almost carbon neutral.
Biodegradable plastics cannot be mixed with other plastics when sent for recycling; this damages the recycled plastic and reduces its value.
To #28 who said: “last time I was in Toronto I walked the entire city without feeling endangered once”
The entire city?
Respectfully, I’m having a hard time figuring out how you walked past the junkies on Yonge St, the prostitutes on Gerrard St, the graffiti gang tags on Queen & Spadina, the teenage burglars at the Beaches (almost 50 break-ins in the neighbourhood since October), the scumbags shooting away on Dundas West & University, and never felt endangered once.
You find gang tags threatening? I’m so used to them that I practically don’t even see them any more.
My instinct as soon as I saw the question about “Compostable” plastic bags was that they probably degraded into something difficult or unpleasant in a landfill. If they also screw up plastic recycling, that would be another sensible reason.
Plastic is made from the sludge left over after gasoline is refined. Having it break down over time almost certainly sounds better than it will work out to be in practice.
“So exactly what are dog owners supposed to do?”
Don’t worry, the SWAT teams will be coming for them.
The last time I was in Toronto, I found it had flipped places with NYC of the late 80s- Toronto is now dirtier, now has more beggars lining the streets, now has more junkies to step over, and otherwise is not a place I really want to take my kids anymore.
Really, the young junkies on Yonge St was startling to see. Worse than Portland, even.
I like those old brown paper sacks, and I wish my local grocery stores would go back to using them. Ever try covering your kids school books with those flimsy biodegradable bags? Doesn’t work.
Mitch @ #30 and GP38-2 @ #34:
Please see mine at # 22.
Think of Canada this way: 10 brothers (the provinces) with one grand-dad. Toronto is a grandson, the successful son of the most successful of the 10 sons, Ontario. (Indeed, Toronto is a huge reason why that son, Ontario, is so successful.) None of the grandchildren have any legal rights whatsoever: their dads can take their money any time they want, and grand-dad in turn can take the money from them any time he wants. Toronto is thus legally unable, in any way, to stop the rest of the family from taking huge chunks of his income.
So, if you ask yourself why Toronto’s sons and daughters are unable to afford the programs and police that they need to solve their problems, build new housing, or do anything else for that matter, you might want to ask about seven or eight of the other brothers, granddad, and the other grand-kids, because they’ve got those necessary billions.
Toronto is a bit like the acidic, cutting and accurate remark (of I cannot remember whom) when the Congress met in NYC after 9-11, the first time in over 200 years. “Awfully nice of them to come and see where the money comes from.”
seeker6079 @ 36 and 37:
I generally agree with you about the reason for Toronto’s chronic lack of funds. (Incidentally, as I understand the bag fee, the stores will be keeping the cash; it is not a tax grab by the city.) On the other hand, the current city council doesn’t seem to be able to do much of anything but whine about the lack of funds, spend months figuring out ineffective ways to come up with more funds, and then pick poorly thought out plans to spend those funds on. I voted for Miller last time around because I wasn’t terribly impressed with the other choices, but I sure won’t be voting for him in the next election. There *must* be more that could be done with what we’ve got.
On the subject of safety, though, while I certainly wouldn’t say that Toronto is absolutely safe, or that there are parts of the city I wouldn’t be very cautious about walking through, I do think that people really exaggerate the degree of danger. I don’t walk down Yonge Street looking over my shoulder. Worries the hell out of my 905 family, I’m sure.
tariqata:
People in the suburbs always exaggerate the degree of danger. I now live in quietville, London ON, and people who live in the burbs here often talk of its downtown like it was NYC in the 1970s!
As for T.O., what else can the city council do, really? To solve a problem requires money. I can be as sensible, dynamic and well-planned as I want, but if my ban account keeps getting raided by my relatives then my plans ain’t goin’ anywhere. All i’ve got left is bitching.
I don’t see the problem here; assuming they’re public utilities, conserving space in landfills for unavoidable refuse is the city’s right. Moreover, no one needs a half dozen plastic bags used once per trip to the market. I’ve lived in Germany for two years, and they’ve been charging customers around 5 cents per bag for years (and good bags too, way better than the flimsy stuff you find at the A&P). The effect is that people either re-use or bring their own rucksacks. In either case, it’s no harm done to the consumer or the retailer. And it helps relive landfills some. Striking bottled water is brilliant. That scam-industry is a blight on us all.
Is bottled SODA water ok?