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	<title>Comments on: The Long Arm of Liability</title>
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	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: supercat</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213868</link>
		<dc:creator>supercat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 00:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213868</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I can imagine that there are some very extreme sets of facts that could lead to the driving service being found liable; and if thats the case then the reversal of summary judgment is probably appropriate.&lt;/i&gt;

I haven&#039;t read the original case, so I have no idea what particular facts were alleged; I don&#039;t think a court is allowed to assume any facts that are more favorable to the plaintiff than the plaintiff&#039;s own allegations, and I&#039;m curious what facts the plaintiffs could have alleged that would justify an award.

In particular, a claim of negligence requires that a person either failed did something a reasonable person would not have done, or failed to do something a reasonable person would have done.  I&#039;m curious what the plaintiffs would have wanted the limo driver to actually do?  Legally, I can&#039;t see that he would have any authority to restrain or detain his passengers; for him to do so would likely be a criminal offense.  Should he have dropped them off somewhere other than their requested destination?  That probably wouldn&#039;t be criminal, but I can&#039;t imagine any reasonable driver taking that option.

So what should the driver have done?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I can imagine that there are some very extreme sets of facts that could lead to the driving service being found liable; and if thats the case then the reversal of summary judgment is probably appropriate.</i></p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read the original case, so I have no idea what particular facts were alleged; I don&#8217;t think a court is allowed to assume any facts that are more favorable to the plaintiff than the plaintiff&#8217;s own allegations, and I&#8217;m curious what facts the plaintiffs could have alleged that would justify an award.</p>
<p>In particular, a claim of negligence requires that a person either failed did something a reasonable person would not have done, or failed to do something a reasonable person would have done.  I&#8217;m curious what the plaintiffs would have wanted the limo driver to actually do?  Legally, I can&#8217;t see that he would have any authority to restrain or detain his passengers; for him to do so would likely be a criminal offense.  Should he have dropped them off somewhere other than their requested destination?  That probably wouldn&#8217;t be criminal, but I can&#8217;t imagine any reasonable driver taking that option.</p>
<p>So what should the driver have done?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213863</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213863</guid>
		<description>This is profoundly ridiculous.
http://rightklik.blogspot.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is profoundly ridiculous.<br />
<a href="http://rightklik.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://rightklik.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Cynical In CA</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213860</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynical In CA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213860</guid>
		<description>Duly noted, Thomas.  Good to know I&#039;m not alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duly noted, Thomas.  Good to know I&#8217;m not alone.</p>
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		<title>By: thomasblair</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213824</link>
		<dc:creator>thomasblair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213824</guid>
		<description>Cynical,

I&#039;d say it&#039;s closer to 90%. There are about 20 regular commenters, and I&#039;m not in the numerator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cynical,</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s closer to 90%. There are about 20 regular commenters, and I&#8217;m not in the numerator.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynical in CA</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213808</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynical in CA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 20:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213808</guid>
		<description>If one subscribes to the U.S. system of justice and jury trials, which about 99.999999999999999999999999% of those posting here do (guess who doesn&#039;t!), then this should be a desirable outcome, assuming the trial is fair (by whose definition?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one subscribes to the U.S. system of justice and jury trials, which about 99.999999999999999999999999% of those posting here do (guess who doesn&#8217;t!), then this should be a desirable outcome, assuming the trial is fair (by whose definition?).</p>
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		<title>By: OGRE</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213803</link>
		<dc:creator>OGRE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213803</guid>
		<description>Lighten up on this one.  This was a reversal of a grant of a summary judgment motion.  It doesn&#039;t mean a whole lot.

The trial court held 2 things:  1) that there were no issues of material facts, and 2) that the moving party (the defendants here) are entitled to judgment as a matter of law.  Both those have to be true in order to succeed on summary judgment, and its usually not very easy to do since its pretty easy to show some disputed factual issues that could affect the outcome.

On appeal, the appellate court reviews the trial courts ruling.  For purposes of this ruling, the court has to operate under a hypothetical in which all facts are resolved in favor of the non-moving party (the plaintiffs here).  Given that generous assumption, the court then determines whether the moving party is still entitled to judgment as a matter of law.

(The appellate court can also review whether there are issues of material fact;  its a higher standard of review though, but if the court finds that there are factual issues then it must reverse the summary judgment as well.)

I haven&#039;t read the opinion, but I&#039;m guessing that the appellate court found that if you assume all facts against the defendants, then they would not be entitled to judgment as a matter of law.  In other words, the court is saying that there are potentially some facts that could be proven that could lead to the defendants being found liable.  Thats it really.

I can imagine that there are some very extreme sets of facts that could lead to the driving service being found liable;  and if thats the case then the reversal of summary judgment is probably appropriate.

The plaintiffs still have to convince a jury and still have to contend with a trial court judge that considers their case bogus.  Not an easy road ahead for them...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lighten up on this one.  This was a reversal of a grant of a summary judgment motion.  It doesn&#8217;t mean a whole lot.</p>
<p>The trial court held 2 things:  1) that there were no issues of material facts, and 2) that the moving party (the defendants here) are entitled to judgment as a matter of law.  Both those have to be true in order to succeed on summary judgment, and its usually not very easy to do since its pretty easy to show some disputed factual issues that could affect the outcome.</p>
<p>On appeal, the appellate court reviews the trial courts ruling.  For purposes of this ruling, the court has to operate under a hypothetical in which all facts are resolved in favor of the non-moving party (the plaintiffs here).  Given that generous assumption, the court then determines whether the moving party is still entitled to judgment as a matter of law.</p>
<p>(The appellate court can also review whether there are issues of material fact;  its a higher standard of review though, but if the court finds that there are factual issues then it must reverse the summary judgment as well.)</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read the opinion, but I&#8217;m guessing that the appellate court found that if you assume all facts against the defendants, then they would not be entitled to judgment as a matter of law.  In other words, the court is saying that there are potentially some facts that could be proven that could lead to the defendants being found liable.  Thats it really.</p>
<p>I can imagine that there are some very extreme sets of facts that could lead to the driving service being found liable;  and if thats the case then the reversal of summary judgment is probably appropriate.</p>
<p>The plaintiffs still have to convince a jury and still have to contend with a trial court judge that considers their case bogus.  Not an easy road ahead for them&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MacGregory</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213792</link>
		<dc:creator>MacGregory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213792</guid>
		<description>How many of the neo-prohibitionist MADDers were there to cheer that ruling?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How many of the neo-prohibitionist MADDers were there to cheer that ruling?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick T</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213790</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213790</guid>
		<description>jerry S and ktc2,

I want to clarify that torts cases are VERY fact specific, and so, even if this ruling was as bad and as drastic as radley first thought, it would not in any way stand for the proposition that a driver is responsible for the drunken actions of their passengers &lt;i&gt;whenever&lt;/i&gt; he drops them off. Again assuming radley&#039;s first reading f the ruling, if you dropped someone off at home, it would still be very likely that the same court would decide that dropping someone off at home get syou off the hook b/c you had good reason to believe they were going to bed.  

Not that I am defending even the actual ruling, cuz I&#039;m not and I disagree with it, but tort rulings from appellate courts shouldn&#039;t raise too much fear of slippery slopes since they are so amorphous and fact specific.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jerry S and ktc2,</p>
<p>I want to clarify that torts cases are VERY fact specific, and so, even if this ruling was as bad and as drastic as radley first thought, it would not in any way stand for the proposition that a driver is responsible for the drunken actions of their passengers <i>whenever</i> he drops them off. Again assuming radley&#8217;s first reading f the ruling, if you dropped someone off at home, it would still be very likely that the same court would decide that dropping someone off at home get syou off the hook b/c you had good reason to believe they were going to bed.  </p>
<p>Not that I am defending even the actual ruling, cuz I&#8217;m not and I disagree with it, but tort rulings from appellate courts shouldn&#8217;t raise too much fear of slippery slopes since they are so amorphous and fact specific.</p>
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		<title>By: Marty</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213772</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213772</guid>
		<description>makes it tough to celebrate the repeal of prohibition when this is the price the govt can charge for exercising this freedom...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>makes it tough to celebrate the repeal of prohibition when this is the price the govt can charge for exercising this freedom&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John Jenkins</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213769</link>
		<dc:creator>John Jenkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213769</guid>
		<description>The SJC did not find the livery company liable.  The SJC reversed the summary judgment in favor of the livery company, finding that the case could go to trial.  In other words, they found that the company *could* be liable, but not that it is liable in this case.  That will be up to a jury to decide.

@Jerry #:  Because this is a matter of state law and the SJC is Massachusetts&#039; higest court, there is nowhere to appeal, but see above for the court&#039;s actual finding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The SJC did not find the livery company liable.  The SJC reversed the summary judgment in favor of the livery company, finding that the case could go to trial.  In other words, they found that the company *could* be liable, but not that it is liable in this case.  That will be up to a jury to decide.</p>
<p>@Jerry #:  Because this is a matter of state law and the SJC is Massachusetts&#8217; higest court, there is nowhere to appeal, but see above for the court&#8217;s actual finding.</p>
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		<title>By: thomasblair</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213768</link>
		<dc:creator>thomasblair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213768</guid>
		<description>This is all you need to know:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The crash killed Sean Waters, an off-duty police officer&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The state protecting the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is all you need to know:</p>
<blockquote><p>The crash killed Sean Waters, an off-duty police officer</p></blockquote>
<p>The state protecting the state.</p>
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		<title>By: Cappy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213764</link>
		<dc:creator>Cappy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:45:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213764</guid>
		<description>Merely the state laying claim to the saying &quot;I am my brother&#039;s keeper.&quot;

Too bad it never applies to the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Merely the state laying claim to the saying &#8220;I am my brother&#8217;s keeper.&#8221;</p>
<p>Too bad it never applies to the state.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213761</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213761</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s next? Installing Breathalyzers in the back seats of cabs and livery cars and if you blow over the limit then the doors lock automatically.

I&#039;m surprised the strip club isn&#039;t being sued as well for not providing entertainment that would have kept these gentlemen there another hour longer, thereby making the accident impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s next? Installing Breathalyzers in the back seats of cabs and livery cars and if you blow over the limit then the doors lock automatically.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m surprised the strip club isn&#8217;t being sued as well for not providing entertainment that would have kept these gentlemen there another hour longer, thereby making the accident impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: ktc2</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213758</link>
		<dc:creator>ktc2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213758</guid>
		<description>So now giving a drunk friend/relative a ride home could cost you your savings, home, etc?

Great precedent assholes!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So now giving a drunk friend/relative a ride home could cost you your savings, home, etc?</p>
<p>Great precedent assholes!</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry S</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213751</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213751</guid>
		<description>I sure hope they appeal this up higher.

What about a designated driver at a bar.  I go to the bar, don&#039;t drink take everyone home.  One of the drunk people decides to go visit girlfriend, go to another bar, or whatever.  It seems like I would be responsible if they did something destructive.  

What happens if they go get a gun and shoot someone, am I an accessory to murder?

This could be taken so far out of whack it&#039;s actually pretty frightening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sure hope they appeal this up higher.</p>
<p>What about a designated driver at a bar.  I go to the bar, don&#8217;t drink take everyone home.  One of the drunk people decides to go visit girlfriend, go to another bar, or whatever.  It seems like I would be responsible if they did something destructive.  </p>
<p>What happens if they go get a gun and shoot someone, am I an accessory to murder?</p>
<p>This could be taken so far out of whack it&#8217;s actually pretty frightening.</p>
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		<title>By: Zeb</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/12/02/the-long-arm-of-liability/comment-page-1/#comment-213750</link>
		<dc:creator>Zeb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=11313#comment-213750</guid>
		<description>This is crazy.  The diver&#039;s job is to do what he is getting payed to do which is to drive the customer to where he wants to go.  Dram shop liability is stupid enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is crazy.  The diver&#8217;s job is to do what he is getting payed to do which is to drive the customer to where he wants to go.  Dram shop liability is stupid enough.</p>
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