TheAgitator.com
Brits Propose Possible Life Sentence for Johns
Thursday, November 20th, 2008The UK is proposing a new law stating that any sex with a prostitute later shown to be working in the sex trade involuntarily is per se rape, possibly punishable by life in prison. Johns will be prohibited from claiming ignorance of the prostitute’s status in their defense.
In a society where prostitution were legal, open, and market regulated, this sort of law would make some sense. Under such a regime, most (or nearly all) advertised prostitutes and brothels would, in all likelihood, be legit. Few people trafficking in sex slaves would want the attention that comes with openly advertising their services.
But black markets by definition obscure information from consumers. When prostitution is illegal (or quasi-legal, as it is Britain), it’s hard to distinguish voluntary sex workers from involuntary ones, because they’re all illegal. They all operate underground. There’s undoubtedly a clear moral distinction between patronizing a sex worker who chooses to sell her body, and one who’s forced to do perform under the threat of harm by a pimp or a mama-san. The problem is that under a prohibition on prostitution, it becomes more difficult for Johns to make that distinction.
The other sad irony here is that I would guess that all else being equal, most Johns don’t want to have sex with a woman against her will. Yes, I’m sure many Johns today practice some willful ignorance about the status of the prostitutes they patronize. But in a society where sex for money were open and legal, the sex slave trade would almost certainly lose a huge chunk of its market share (whatever that may be). Given the option between legal sex with an advertised prostitute or brothel or risking arrest by having sex with a prostitute in a shady, unadvertised, unregulated, underground brothel that may be using sex slaves, I don’t think it’s wildly speculative to say that most Johns would choose the former.
In any case, under such a scenario, you could certainly make a stronger case for throwing the book at those who choose the latter.
I have to say this is a stupid idea for precisely the reasons you suggest. Like most government proposals it tries to pin the blame on the person not victimizing the victim thus allowing the real victimizer to get away with such crimes. Another factor could be the uptight and prudish nature of the British. Two people engaging in a voluntary transaction involving sex OMGWTF!?!? It must be stopped NOW!
Does the proposed law impose any greater penalty on the pimps or “mama-sans”? If not, the British government is clearly indicating that enslaving someone is a lesser crime than having (what at least one of the participants believes to be) consensual sex.
Whatever will those whacky Brits come up with next?
Remember remember the fifth of November
Gunpowder, treason and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot . . .
While I agree that this is bad law, the ‘john’ involved is committing no heinous act and is almost certainly unaware of the prostitute’s prisoner status, the intent is going in the right direction… penalizing solicitation over prostitution.
However, the Libertarian position of “Legalize it and regulate it” is utterly ignorant. There are simply not enough women willing to do this to themselves to meet the demand. It ALWAYS comes down to forced trafficking.
Ask yourself this, Radley… would you be ok with the Agitratrix selling herself out for… say… 300 bucks a pop? Or would that destroy all intimacy in your relationship?
There is a TINY pool or women willing to do this in a willing manner, not including the utterly destitute.
Criminalization is also not the answer. Incarcerating and then releasing prostitutes back on the street is utterly pointless.
Aside from this law being bad, the intent… criminalizing solicitation more virulently than prostitution is the correct path, just not for a crime you had no idea you were committing.
So go ahead! Flame away for my having to balls to not agree with the Libertarian view that prostitution is great, and loads of women will want to be high priced whores if only it were legal.
Prostitution is not a victimless crime, the simple, utter, human fact that demand will far exceed victimless supply guarantees the creation of victims to close the gap.
There is a TINY pool or women willing to do this in a willing manner, not including the utterly destitute.
Never been to Vegas, then, have you?
There are simply not enough women willing to do this to themselves to meet the demand. It ALWAYS comes down to forced trafficking.
This is simply baseless. There’s nothing wrong with not liking or disapproving of prostitution. And there are serious problems with women who don’t want to be prostitutes, but who are forced into it. But there are plenty of people who choose to be prostitutes and plenty of people who enjoy it.
http://www.sexworkersproject.org/
http://www.bayswan.org/COYOTE.html
Where are the numbers? As long as we’re slinging anecdotes, it seems quite the opposite to me that the vast majority are willing and a few are held against their will.
Bob,
That is the most poorly reasoned argument I have seen in a while. Demand is not limitless. Right now the black market is, most likely, clearing–i.e. supply is equal to demand. There is little reason that this will not be the case if things were legalized.
Further, your argument also hinges on the assumption that men wont care that they are engaging in a sex act with a woman that is essentially against her will–i.e., that fundamentally all men are rapists.
I know I’m probably asking a bit much, but can you not be such a humungous asshole?
Another warped aspect of this law is that is supposedly gives the police more power to shut down brothels for up to three months…..of course, brothels are illegal to begin with. So why can’t the police shut down an already illegal brothel permanently? I’m guessing it’s because they know where the best girls are already working and………yea, it’s just easier to take it out on your own hard working citizens.
@jwh
Brothels are NOT illegal in the UK. Just FYI.
[So go ahead! Flame away for my having to balls to not agree with the Libertarian view that prostitution is great, and loads of women will want to be high priced whores if only it were legal.]
It doesn’t take balls to make unsupported statements about someones elses views, all it takes is very little grey matter (or the inability to use what you have) in between your ears.
Bob you ignorant slut.
One need only look at Nevada and the Netherlands to completely dispose of your argument.
NEXT!
Bob, a couple corrections if I may. The Libertarian view isn’t that “prostitution is great!”. It’s that Libertarians don’t believe laws that regulate victimless crimes are appropriate in a free society. Also, prostitution is a victimless crime whether you see it that way or not. A disparity in supply and demand does not in itself, a victim make. I understand where you’re going and I agree your argument is emotionally compelling in this context. But when you talk laws, the corollary is jail and most Libertarians don’t feel justified in locking people up based on feelings.
“In a society where prostitution were legal, open, and market regulated, this sort of law would make some sense.”
In a society where prostitution were legal, I doubt there would be enough profit to make the risky involuntary sex trades feasible.
Is it Bob? Or maybe BillyBob. You need to get out of the bible belt more often.
Hey, now to be fair, Bob could be a feminist. His views on this topic coincide nicely.
Gee, I wonder if we’ll ever see Bob again.
sniff, sniff
You’re naive if you believe that. The porno industry contradicts your claim. There are quite a few women out there who are willing to have sex for money. Their primary barrier to that is the law. All prostitution is in America is is “pornography without anyone recording it.”
“So go ahead! Flame away for my having to balls to not agree with the Libertarian view that prostitution is great, and loads of women will want to be high priced whores if only it were legal.”
Great, now I can’t flame you without making you look like Nostradamus! Damn it! You win this round, you brilliant tactician you!
“The porno industry contradicts your claim.”
I thought they were all supposed to be a bunch of drugged-up sex slaves acting out the rape fantasies of all the evil, evil men in the world.
I watched a show on the Bunny Ranch (a legal Nevada brothel) last night.
1. All the girls said they liked what they did.
2. Not one of them asked to be released/rescued from a slave trading goon.
3. They did 12hr days with total work time being 1 1/2 to 2 hours of the work day, and still made a very good living.
4. About once a month the supervising lady did warn some of the girls that it was a business, and that if they did not want to work there she had a list of about 1000 girls that could replace them.
Lets compared this to what most of do at our jobs.
1. Many of us like what we do, but many do not: The BR girls win!
2. Most of us are looking for a better job: The BR girls win!
3. Most of us work 8hr days with 7hrs of total work time, and we are barely making enough to pay rent: The BR girls win!
4. Many of us have bosses that warn us on a daily basis we can be replaced by anyone off the street before the door hits us in the ass. The BR girls win!
Remind me again who the real slave is, when prostitution is legal.
Bob,
“Ask yourself this, Radley… would you be ok with the Agitratrix selling herself out for… say… 300 bucks a pop? Or would that destroy all intimacy in your relationship?”
lol. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t let it get to that point, and neither would she. They both seem to have enough drive to make this scenario never happen. Hypothetical problem solved!
By the way, Radley would definitely charge WAY more than $300!
An aside: This is a fantastic web site hosted by one helluva guy. I am immensely grateful to Radley for his efforts in making what I consider to be one of the best sites in existence. As far as I can tell, Radley has only asked us, his readers for one thing – civility in these forums. Calling Bob ignorant slut, billybob, and the like isn’t civil. As much as I disagree with his opinion on the topic, Bob’s writing was articulate and respectful. Is it really that difficult to reciprocate his courtesy? While our opinion on the topic may be aligned, I’m rather ashamed at the childish backlash it’s generated by some of us.
Seconded, #22 Rob S.
I’m as much for childish name-calling as the next guy (probably more so, really). But what The Balko asks of us is only not to clutter up his message board with the stuff. And I’m sure all you good people came up with rebuttals anyhow.
Bob certainly needs to do some research to back up his point, but it’s not the terrible point everyone is making it out to be. Two responses:
To Mike T. who said:
“There are quite a few women out there who are willing to have sex for money. Their primary barrier to that is the law.”
I’m sorry, but I have yet to meet a woman who is chomping at the bit to be a prostitute and is only held back due to it’s illegal status. It’s probably one of the easiest illegal activities to get away with if you aren’t walking the street. Just look at what goes on on Craigslist.
To Mack who commented about the Bunny Ranch: yes, they all say they love it when the camera is in front of them. But just yesterday I watched a show about an 18-year old girl who worked at the Bunny Ranch “voluntarily” (after her stepfather groomed and waxed her himself so she could be a prostitute) who now says she was coerced and hated doing it. You never know what’s really going on with people, that is a T.V. show after all.
The idea amongst Libertarians that there are tons of happy, well-adjusted prostitutes just doesn’t sit well with me. I personally know a lot of strippers and keep up with all the pro-sex worker blogs out there and I just haven’t seen it. There are very, very few normal, healthy, well-adjusted women who will choose this profession over a “normal” one. I hate to tell you guys this, but taking it up the butt when you don’t really, really want to is not pleasant and it’s just not something people are willing to do professionally. Especially for the cheapened prices that legalization would bring.
And one other thing, they do still have problems with sex trafficking in places where prostitution is legal, sometimes even more so than places where it is illegal. Just saying. http://www.expatica.com/nl/life_in/feature/sex-trafficking-in-belgium-253.html
Uhhhhmmmm, I don’t think anyone made such an argument, sorry strawman.
This contradicts your earlier statement that there aren’t lots of women willing to get into this profession save for the illegal status.
Ummm, from comment #5 (for example):
“But there are plenty of people who choose to be prostitutes and plenty of people who enjoy it.”
And I don’t see where my comment contradicts itself, there’s nothing in what I said that contradicts the idea that there are not many women sitting around, waiting for legalization so they can become prostitutes. There just aren’t any girls standing around the fryer at McDonalds fantasizing about being legal prostitutes. I’m sorry.
Per Bob: “There is a TINY pool or women willing to do this in a willing manner, not including the utterly destitute.”
** Maybe so, maybe not. If you’re talking about “call girls” or employees of brothels, then I think the pool of willing women is bigger than Bob thinks. If you’re talking about “street prostitution,” the women are often supporting a drug habit, at least in my area. That doesn’t necessarily mean they are unwilling, even though street prostitution is a pretty ugly and dangerous business. The solution: take drugs AND prostitution out of the hands of organized criminal groups by legalizing voluntary drug use and voluntary prostitution. Then, implement basic regulations for the sake of public health and safety, not “public morality,” whatever that is. Under such a system, both drug selling and sex selling would become more like other businesses, instead of being right out there on the corner where it can screw up neighborhoods.
“Ask yourself this, Radley… would you be ok with the Agitratrix selling herself out for… say… 300 bucks a pop?”
**That was a naked appeal to emotion, Bob. It was a personal shot designed to mask your weak arguement. Frankly, it was kind of a dick move.
“criminalizing solicitation more virulently than prostitution is the correct path,”
**Paternalistic holy rollers and feminists like the late Andrea Dworkin, who felt that all sexual interaction between males and females was the equivalent of rape, would approve of your reasoning. People who value liberty and personal responsibility would consider this to be very, very weak reasoning.
Alright I’ll spell it out for you.
1. You claim that there aren’t many women who would become prostitutes save for the illegality of it.
2. You claim that once legalized the prices a prostitute could command would drop.
Point 2 implies that once it is legalized women would then enter that profession thus driving down the prices. Since the only thing changing would be the legality of prostitution this contradicts your earlier position.
As for the numbers of prostitutes who don’t find the work objectionable, you are correct, there are a few who have made that argument. Still, it is a minority of the commenters, so calling it a “Libertarian belief” is overly strong since it is far from clear it is a generally held belief.
If this is correct, then your conclusions about the price for various sex acts declining once prostitution is legalized are specious. In fact, if anything the exact opposite is true. Legalizing it might increase the demand, and thus increase the price. This is even moreso if you are right in terms of the number of women willing to enter this line of work. It would imply the the supply is relatively inelastic meaning that the increase in demand would likely result in a larger rise in price than if the supply curve were more elastic.
I do not agree with the law, but I’m a bit confused by part of your post, Radley. If you’re just saying the policy is inconsistent, I’m with you. Legalization would reduce the number of women coerced into prostitution. But it seems as if you’re saying that Johns’ probable ignorance of whether the women are coerced is exculpatory, and this isn’t wholly true.
Having sex with a woman you know is being coerced is far worse than having sex with one when you can’t tell if she is being coerced, but either is quite a bad act. The moral (and legal) thing to do in the situation is to not take the risk (that’s setting aside whatever views you have about the morality of prostitution itself). Is taking that risk worthy of a life sentence? Probably not. But it’s hardly innocent.
I have to agree with Justin here The moral (and legal) thing to do in the situation is to not take the risk (that’s setting aside whatever views you have about the morality of prostitution itself). Is taking that risk worthy of a life sentence? Probably not. But it’s hardly innocent.
I am no lawyer, or what, U.K. barrister, and have not read the law, but I would hope there would be an equally harsh penalty for whomever forced, or induced, the person into slavery. To me, forcing someone into slavery deserves a death penalty.
But it seems as if you’re saying that Johns’ probable ignorance of whether the women are coerced is exculpatory, and this isn’t wholly true.
Not sure if you’re talking about moral or legal culpability here. I don’t think it’s moral to patronize a prostitute if you aren’t 100 percent certain she’s participating voluntarily. But I’m not convinced it’s rape, either.
Legally? I guess that depends on what the law is where it happens.
My point is that I don’t think it’s a stretch to say a healthy majority of Johns would much prefer to patronize a prostitute who was in the business of her own volition. Patronizing a prostitute you know for a fact is a sex slave is rape, and I doubt most Johns are rapists. Prohibiting prostitution and pushing it underground makes it more difficult to distinguish between voluntary and involuntary sex workers.
I’ve lived a marvelously checkered existence…so for anecdotal evidence I’ll throw my two cents in (assuming this comment is ok since most of mine on the subject don’t make it into the forum).
I’ve known, personally (as in friends/wife’s friends/married to a friend etc, not a working relationship), five women in the sex trade. Three prostitutes, two strippers. One of the prostitutes was hooked on heroin, didn’t like what she did for her drug, but was damned happy she could. A bad situation but it wasn’t coerced and she chose it as her way of making a living. Both of the other prostitutes did it because they liked the money and they liked the sex (the wierder the better)…one of these was older, one younger. The younger girl trafficked in truck stops because she could move around faster from client to client and she *liked* it. A very pretty, fairly well adjusted girl from a middle class family, she had a day job that paid ok but she enjoyed her lady-of-the-night activities. The strippers were both doing it for the money and although they both said they thought it kept their opinion of men low they also both said they did it because they enjoyed the power it gave them over men. That and because it paid so much that they could pay for college, buy a new car, and invest all while working two nights a week. There are a *lot* of college enrolled women I met through those two doing those jobs. It’s a no-brainer for the money if you’re willing to take your clothes off. Lots of coke for a lot of the girls, and quite a few that were very, very, screwed up in the head, but I never, not once, met a working girl or a stripper that was being forced to do it. They all seemed to think it was the best work they could get and did it despite their distaste for it…much like most of the work I’ve done my entire life including the job I’m doing now.
Andrea Dworkin is alive and well and living in the UK.
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