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	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s (Still) the Matter with Thomas Frank?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: Morning Links &#124; The Agitator</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-431350</link>
		<dc:creator>Morning Links &#124; The Agitator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Nov 2010 13:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-431350</guid>
		<description>[...] I am (not really) shocked that Thomas Frank would write something misleading. I mean, he&#8217;s never done it before. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I am (not really) shocked that Thomas Frank would write something misleading. I mean, he&#8217;s never done it before. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Agitator &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Morning Links</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-216195</link>
		<dc:creator>The Agitator &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Morning Links</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-216195</guid>
		<description>[...] Thomas Frank: Free markets lead to low-income women consensual renting out their wombs to barren upper-income women. He find that icky. Let&#8217;s ban it! The free market stinks! Better the rich woman stay childless and the poor woman not get the extra income, lest we offend Thomas Frank&#8217;s sensibilities. But what do I know. I&#8217;m just a &#8220;regular feeder at D.C.’s subsidized libertarian troughs.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Thomas Frank: Free markets lead to low-income women consensual renting out their wombs to barren upper-income women. He find that icky. Let&#8217;s ban it! The free market stinks! Better the rich woman stay childless and the poor woman not get the extra income, lest we offend Thomas Frank&#8217;s sensibilities. But what do I know. I&#8217;m just a &#8220;regular feeder at D.C.’s subsidized libertarian troughs.&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael McAuliffe</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182667</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael McAuliffe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182667</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never been at ease with the whole overly simplistic left/right worldview. It reminds me of the &quot;bi-polar world&quot; views espoused during the cold war, in which nuanced self interest of non-aligned countries was dismissed in attempts to pigeonhole them into the Soviet or NATO camps. I, like many people lean left or right depending upon the issue at hand. 

I have been referring many people to www.politicalcompass.org. While not a perfect solution, it at least adds a y-axis of libertarianism/authoritarianism to the mix. After years of political schizophrenia which saw me moving between the Democratic and Libertarian parties, this site termed my views as part of the libertarian left, spot on in the chart point with Ghandi, ML King, and Dennis Kucinich. My poli-schizo dance ended, and I have been sleeping better ever since.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never been at ease with the whole overly simplistic left/right worldview. It reminds me of the &#8220;bi-polar world&#8221; views espoused during the cold war, in which nuanced self interest of non-aligned countries was dismissed in attempts to pigeonhole them into the Soviet or NATO camps. I, like many people lean left or right depending upon the issue at hand. </p>
<p>I have been referring many people to <a href="http://www.politicalcompass.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.politicalcompass.org</a>. While not a perfect solution, it at least adds a y-axis of libertarianism/authoritarianism to the mix. After years of political schizophrenia which saw me moving between the Democratic and Libertarian parties, this site termed my views as part of the libertarian left, spot on in the chart point with Ghandi, ML King, and Dennis Kucinich. My poli-schizo dance ended, and I have been sleeping better ever since.</p>
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		<title>By: Bronwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182653</link>
		<dc:creator>Bronwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182653</guid>
		<description>Sure you sound arrogant, Radley, but you&#039;ve earned it!

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure you sound arrogant, Radley, but you&#8217;ve earned it!</p>
<p>:)</p>
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		<title>By: old</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182498</link>
		<dc:creator>old</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182498</guid>
		<description>Not sure why you call this fellow a leftist.  He, seems to me, is more of the &#039;I&#039;ve got mine.&#039; political philosophy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure why you call this fellow a leftist.  He, seems to me, is more of the &#8216;I&#8217;ve got mine.&#8217; political philosophy.</p>
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		<title>By: Helmut O' Hooligan</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182387</link>
		<dc:creator>Helmut O' Hooligan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 02:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182387</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d fire back Radley!  Don&#039;t let Frank do a Klein-style hatchet job.  These two dimwits personify the kind of leftists that led me from leftism to a more libertarian outlook.  They are so interested in choosing sides that they fail to see the complexities inherent in a libertarian outlook.  They don&#039;t want to take any risky positions because they might get applause from the &quot;enemy.&quot;  Thus Frank links Balko to conservatives while the conservatives would probably label him (and me) as a &quot;liberal wackos.&quot;  Actually, I view libertarianism as a pretty radical version of the liberal tradition, so that description might be apt.  

Recently, I&#039;ve had some similar problems while debating the draft on a local blog (one of our local Democratic candidates proposed reinstating a draft and/or national service for &quot;egalitarian&quot; reasons).  Some contributiors tried to make a (poor) populist case for a draft that sounded like Charlie Rangel&#039;s.  When I referred to the draft and national service as unconstitutional forms of involuntary servitude, the Progressives started making strawman insinuations about my patriotism that could have come straight from Karl Rove.  And they did so without a hint of irony.  Perhaps they&#039;ve been reading Woodrow Wilson when they&#039;re not visiting Michael Moore&#039;s website.  It was very, very depressing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d fire back Radley!  Don&#8217;t let Frank do a Klein-style hatchet job.  These two dimwits personify the kind of leftists that led me from leftism to a more libertarian outlook.  They are so interested in choosing sides that they fail to see the complexities inherent in a libertarian outlook.  They don&#8217;t want to take any risky positions because they might get applause from the &#8220;enemy.&#8221;  Thus Frank links Balko to conservatives while the conservatives would probably label him (and me) as a &#8220;liberal wackos.&#8221;  Actually, I view libertarianism as a pretty radical version of the liberal tradition, so that description might be apt.  </p>
<p>Recently, I&#8217;ve had some similar problems while debating the draft on a local blog (one of our local Democratic candidates proposed reinstating a draft and/or national service for &#8220;egalitarian&#8221; reasons).  Some contributiors tried to make a (poor) populist case for a draft that sounded like Charlie Rangel&#8217;s.  When I referred to the draft and national service as unconstitutional forms of involuntary servitude, the Progressives started making strawman insinuations about my patriotism that could have come straight from Karl Rove.  And they did so without a hint of irony.  Perhaps they&#8217;ve been reading Woodrow Wilson when they&#8217;re not visiting Michael Moore&#8217;s website.  It was very, very depressing.</p>
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		<title>By: ClubMedSux</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182303</link>
		<dc:creator>ClubMedSux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182303</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I have read his prior criticism of Beltway libertarians, which as far as I can tell is that we’re walking contradictions because we advocate for free markets while living off of the welfare of corporate and private donations...&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t understand this.  What&#039;s anti-libertarian about corporations and/or private citizens choosing, of their own free will, to part with their own money in an effort to advocate for greater economic and/or personal freedom?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I have read his prior criticism of Beltway libertarians, which as far as I can tell is that we’re walking contradictions because we advocate for free markets while living off of the welfare of corporate and private donations&#8230;</i></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand this.  What&#8217;s anti-libertarian about corporations and/or private citizens choosing, of their own free will, to part with their own money in an effort to advocate for greater economic and/or personal freedom?</p>
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		<title>By: wunder</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182291</link>
		<dc:creator>wunder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:23:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182291</guid>
		<description>FWB - 
I think that Radley actually recommended that book earlier this year.  
And, yes, while Bush&#039;s administration didn&#039;t create imperial presidency, they have taken great advantage of it and (perhaps) taken it to new levels.  Regardless of who did it first, there are still major problems with whomever takes this idea and runs with it, not the least of which is the likelihood that future presidents will only likely expand the powers further.  
The hardest part for me is figuring out which next president is likely to expand the powers the least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWB &#8211;<br />
I think that Radley actually recommended that book earlier this year.<br />
And, yes, while Bush&#8217;s administration didn&#8217;t create imperial presidency, they have taken great advantage of it and (perhaps) taken it to new levels.  Regardless of who did it first, there are still major problems with whomever takes this idea and runs with it, not the least of which is the likelihood that future presidents will only likely expand the powers further.<br />
The hardest part for me is figuring out which next president is likely to expand the powers the least.</p>
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		<title>By: Atabrat</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182290</link>
		<dc:creator>Atabrat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182290</guid>
		<description>Umm... that&#039;s &quot;know-nothing&quot;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm&#8230; that&#8217;s &#8220;know-nothing&#8221;!</p>
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		<title>By: Atabrat</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182289</link>
		<dc:creator>Atabrat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182289</guid>
		<description>Your writing on no-knock raids alone slays most of what passes for journalism these days--let alone the lazy googlers--and it is a genuine service to the people and our society.  Keep up the good work and ignore the no-nothing naysayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your writing on no-knock raids alone slays most of what passes for journalism these days&#8211;let alone the lazy googlers&#8211;and it is a genuine service to the people and our society.  Keep up the good work and ignore the no-nothing naysayers.</p>
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		<title>By: freedomfan</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182288</link>
		<dc:creator>freedomfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182288</guid>
		<description>Yup. This is another instance of the bipolar fallacy that divides the world into two camps on most issues and assumes that anyone who has said something in opposition to side A must therefore be a cheerleader for side B. 

This is a constant challenge for libertarians. For example, people assume that, when the Republicans are villains, then the Democrats must be heroes, instead of assuming more logically that the Republicans are villains and the Democrats are either villains, heroes or neutral, depending on the issue. (And vice-versa, obviously.) That becomes particularly noisome when one side&#039;s view gets some publicity and people assume that the other side must have the opposite view (whatever that would mean) when, in fact, stripping away the rhetoric, both sides have essentially the same view. Or, one side is caught in a lie, so the other side must be telling the truth, etc.

BTW, this is the same phenomenon that we so often see in in press accounts of justice cases. We hear how an officer works hard dodging bullets for the community, is a family man, etc. and we are supposed to assume that the defendant is therefore a bad guy, though the officer&#039;s pillar-of-the-community status has no bearing on the disposition of the defendant. Or, we hear that pot was found in the defendant&#039;s home, so we are to supposed to assume that he&#039;s a drug user and that the officers are good guys who were justified in carrying out the violent military-style raid, even when the raid was never to catch a pot smoker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup. This is another instance of the bipolar fallacy that divides the world into two camps on most issues and assumes that anyone who has said something in opposition to side A must therefore be a cheerleader for side B. </p>
<p>This is a constant challenge for libertarians. For example, people assume that, when the Republicans are villains, then the Democrats must be heroes, instead of assuming more logically that the Republicans are villains and the Democrats are either villains, heroes or neutral, depending on the issue. (And vice-versa, obviously.) That becomes particularly noisome when one side&#8217;s view gets some publicity and people assume that the other side must have the opposite view (whatever that would mean) when, in fact, stripping away the rhetoric, both sides have essentially the same view. Or, one side is caught in a lie, so the other side must be telling the truth, etc.</p>
<p>BTW, this is the same phenomenon that we so often see in in press accounts of justice cases. We hear how an officer works hard dodging bullets for the community, is a family man, etc. and we are supposed to assume that the defendant is therefore a bad guy, though the officer&#8217;s pillar-of-the-community status has no bearing on the disposition of the defendant. Or, we hear that pot was found in the defendant&#8217;s home, so we are to supposed to assume that he&#8217;s a drug user and that the officers are good guys who were justified in carrying out the violent military-style raid, even when the raid was never to catch a pot smoker.</p>
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		<title>By: FWB</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182286</link>
		<dc:creator>FWB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182286</guid>
		<description>If you haven&#039;t read it yet, I suggest The_Cult_of_the_Presidency_.  Bush&#039;s imperalist tendencies and his behavior using unitary executive theory are not only not his, they are the democrats or more exactly the social progressives.  Much of what folks like to claim Bush has done began with TR and Woodrow Wilson.  Read the book.  Come back and chat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you haven&#8217;t read it yet, I suggest The_Cult_of_the_Presidency_.  Bush&#8217;s imperalist tendencies and his behavior using unitary executive theory are not only not his, they are the democrats or more exactly the social progressives.  Much of what folks like to claim Bush has done began with TR and Woodrow Wilson.  Read the book.  Come back and chat.</p>
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		<title>By: thomasblair</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182279</link>
		<dc:creator>thomasblair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182279</guid>
		<description>I think of it like this: when they look at someone that does not fit neatly along the left-right axis, they get a &quot;does not compute&quot; error. To them, the world is binary - black &amp; white, good &amp; bad, liberal &amp; conservative, right &amp; wrong. Anyone with a carefully reasoned, nuanced position just doesn&#039;t fit their model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think of it like this: when they look at someone that does not fit neatly along the left-right axis, they get a &#8220;does not compute&#8221; error. To them, the world is binary &#8211; black &amp; white, good &amp; bad, liberal &amp; conservative, right &amp; wrong. Anyone with a carefully reasoned, nuanced position just doesn&#8217;t fit their model.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182278</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182278</guid>
		<description>Thomas Frank&#039;s Kansas book is bizarrely accepted by both liberals and conservatives despite being &lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/09/thomas_frank_is_full_of_crap.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;completely wrong&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas Frank&#8217;s Kansas book is bizarrely accepted by both liberals and conservatives despite being <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/09/thomas_frank_is_full_of_crap.php" rel="nofollow">completely wrong</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris in PA</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182251</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris in PA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182251</guid>
		<description>You forgot to mention that Thomas Frank is a smug douchebag, but that may have detracted from the emotion-free reasoning tone of your argument, so I&#039;ll say it for you.  :)

Say what you want about people from Kansas, but they&#039;re smart enough to know that a guy who writes a book called &quot;What&#039;s the matter with Kansas?&quot; is not their friend. 

As for the shoddy research, I suspect this book was rushed out for the pre-election fervor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You forgot to mention that Thomas Frank is a smug douchebag, but that may have detracted from the emotion-free reasoning tone of your argument, so I&#8217;ll say it for you.  :)</p>
<p>Say what you want about people from Kansas, but they&#8217;re smart enough to know that a guy who writes a book called &#8220;What&#8217;s the matter with Kansas?&#8221; is not their friend. </p>
<p>As for the shoddy research, I suspect this book was rushed out for the pre-election fervor.</p>
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		<title>By: Dakota</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182247</link>
		<dc:creator>Dakota</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182247</guid>
		<description>IMO Pissing off both left and right hardliners most likely means you have taken the time to develop a meaningful political philosophy using thought and reason. 

Its way better then mindless ideologue who defends their &quot;side&quot; with religious vigor. 

Wear their insults as a badge of honor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMO Pissing off both left and right hardliners most likely means you have taken the time to develop a meaningful political philosophy using thought and reason. </p>
<p>Its way better then mindless ideologue who defends their &#8220;side&#8221; with religious vigor. </p>
<p>Wear their insults as a badge of honor.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182245</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182245</guid>
		<description>Radley, no doubt in my mind that you&#039;ve gotten more &quot;real-world&quot; results than this guy.  But remember, if leftist writers solved all the problems that leftist writers complained about, they&#039;d have nothing to write about, since they&#039;d be living in a left-wing utopia.

I heard this guy interviewed on NPR and he came off as a pompous &quot;I know what&#039;s better for you than you do&quot; guy who thinks that his shallow understanding of the issues he talks about is much deeper than everyone else&#039;s, but since he loves us so much, he&#039;ll be glad to arrogantly tell us what we really mean to say.  And he really didn&#039;t seem to grasp that there was any difference whatsoever between a libertarian and a conservative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Radley, no doubt in my mind that you&#8217;ve gotten more &#8220;real-world&#8221; results than this guy.  But remember, if leftist writers solved all the problems that leftist writers complained about, they&#8217;d have nothing to write about, since they&#8217;d be living in a left-wing utopia.</p>
<p>I heard this guy interviewed on NPR and he came off as a pompous &#8220;I know what&#8217;s better for you than you do&#8221; guy who thinks that his shallow understanding of the issues he talks about is much deeper than everyone else&#8217;s, but since he loves us so much, he&#8217;ll be glad to arrogantly tell us what we really mean to say.  And he really didn&#8217;t seem to grasp that there was any difference whatsoever between a libertarian and a conservative.</p>
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		<title>By: Danno49</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/09/17/whats-still-the-matter-with-thomas-frank/comment-page-1/#comment-182230</link>
		<dc:creator>Danno49</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10662#comment-182230</guid>
		<description>I wish your would-be detractors could make up their minds.  Are you a peace loving, tree-hugging, PETA donating ultra-liberal or are you a war-supporting, Bush-schilling, drug warrior uber-conservative?

I laugh &lt;b&gt;real hard&lt;/b&gt; every time I read about these people who haven&#039;t a clue as to where you really stand on the issues when trying to put a box around you on them.  

Nothing like knee-jerk reactions coupled with poor to non-existent research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish your would-be detractors could make up their minds.  Are you a peace loving, tree-hugging, PETA donating ultra-liberal or are you a war-supporting, Bush-schilling, drug warrior uber-conservative?</p>
<p>I laugh <b>real hard</b> every time I read about these people who haven&#8217;t a clue as to where you really stand on the issues when trying to put a box around you on them.  </p>
<p>Nothing like knee-jerk reactions coupled with poor to non-existent research.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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