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	<title>Comments on: You Can&#8217;t Understand TIF without Eminent Domain</title>
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	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: Reid Greenmun</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/comment-page-1/#comment-172284</link>
		<dc:creator>Reid Greenmun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10515#comment-172284</guid>
		<description>Where to begin?

TIFs are a nightmare! My city has several - each is a scam that benefits politically influential special interests. I live in Virginia Beach VA.

The problem with TIFs is that they ear mark future taxes for special interests, leaving the general fund to flat line and thus, forcing more tax increases.

In my city TIFs are used for funding wealthy developers that were going to invest anyway - the TIF just made the deal sweeter for them. Often these TIFs are marketed to the public as some sort of &quot;investment&#039; - however, the &quot;investment&quot; doesn&#039;t return any increased funding to the general Fund; rather the increased costs of public services and new &quot;public&quot; infrastructure far out weighs the new increase in taxes collected.

The other problem with TIFs is that they often set a baseline year and take ALL increases in property value since the baseline year. The propoerty would have increased in value without the TIF, but that non-develop increases in taxes is now redirected to benefit the developer&#039;s project, now to benefit the residents of the city outside of the TIF development.

Of course the TIF also eats up any of the city&#039;s available credit (bond potential) for non-essential so-called &quot;economic development&quot; boondoggles; thus maxing out the city&#039;s &quot;credit card&quot; when it comes time to borrow money for real needs, such as new schools or replacing worn out transportation infrastructure.

If new &quot;infrastructure&quot; is desired by developers then I prefer a &quot;Special Taxing District&quot; instead; this way, those property owners that benefit most from the new &quot;public&quot; infrastructure (like the $1.6M Italian marble fountain in our new TIF funded &quot;Town Center&quot;, or the $100M addition to the Lynnhaven Mall) are the ones that pay - and the increased property taxes go directly into the General Fund - thus REALLY offering residents a benefit - now.

Not 37 years &quot;later&quot; when the bonds are actually paid off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where to begin?</p>
<p>TIFs are a nightmare! My city has several &#8211; each is a scam that benefits politically influential special interests. I live in Virginia Beach VA.</p>
<p>The problem with TIFs is that they ear mark future taxes for special interests, leaving the general fund to flat line and thus, forcing more tax increases.</p>
<p>In my city TIFs are used for funding wealthy developers that were going to invest anyway &#8211; the TIF just made the deal sweeter for them. Often these TIFs are marketed to the public as some sort of &#8220;investment&#8217; &#8211; however, the &#8220;investment&#8221; doesn&#8217;t return any increased funding to the general Fund; rather the increased costs of public services and new &#8220;public&#8221; infrastructure far out weighs the new increase in taxes collected.</p>
<p>The other problem with TIFs is that they often set a baseline year and take ALL increases in property value since the baseline year. The propoerty would have increased in value without the TIF, but that non-develop increases in taxes is now redirected to benefit the developer&#8217;s project, now to benefit the residents of the city outside of the TIF development.</p>
<p>Of course the TIF also eats up any of the city&#8217;s available credit (bond potential) for non-essential so-called &#8220;economic development&#8221; boondoggles; thus maxing out the city&#8217;s &#8220;credit card&#8221; when it comes time to borrow money for real needs, such as new schools or replacing worn out transportation infrastructure.</p>
<p>If new &#8220;infrastructure&#8221; is desired by developers then I prefer a &#8220;Special Taxing District&#8221; instead; this way, those property owners that benefit most from the new &#8220;public&#8221; infrastructure (like the $1.6M Italian marble fountain in our new TIF funded &#8220;Town Center&#8221;, or the $100M addition to the Lynnhaven Mall) are the ones that pay &#8211; and the increased property taxes go directly into the General Fund &#8211; thus REALLY offering residents a benefit &#8211; now.</p>
<p>Not 37 years &#8220;later&#8221; when the bonds are actually paid off.</p>
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		<title>By: Best of the Small-Business Blogs, Week of August 22</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/comment-page-1/#comment-172245</link>
		<dc:creator>Best of the Small-Business Blogs, Week of August 22</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10515#comment-172245</guid>
		<description>[...] at The Agitator, Tim Lee explains how one policy used by city and local governments to spur small-business [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] at The Agitator, Tim Lee explains how one policy used by city and local governments to spur small-business [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Perry</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/comment-page-1/#comment-171321</link>
		<dc:creator>Perry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10515#comment-171321</guid>
		<description>Eric, 

Again a TIF in and of itself is not a tax break of any kind.  It redirects the tax revenues that the owner would be paying anyways towards debt service instead of general fund purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, </p>
<p>Again a TIF in and of itself is not a tax break of any kind.  It redirects the tax revenues that the owner would be paying anyways towards debt service instead of general fund purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: Perry</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/comment-page-1/#comment-171320</link>
		<dc:creator>Perry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10515#comment-171320</guid>
		<description>TIF&#039;s have nothing to do with &#039;stolen&#039; money.  All they are there for is reallocating taxes that owners would already pay to a different stream.  In essence, instead of going to a general fund, they go towards paying debt service on infrastructure improvements. 

Now you could consider any taxes paid at all &#039;stolen&#039; and certainly thats a different argument but not one that has anything to do with TIFs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TIF&#8217;s have nothing to do with &#8216;stolen&#8217; money.  All they are there for is reallocating taxes that owners would already pay to a different stream.  In essence, instead of going to a general fund, they go towards paying debt service on infrastructure improvements. </p>
<p>Now you could consider any taxes paid at all &#8216;stolen&#8217; and certainly thats a different argument but not one that has anything to do with TIFs.</p>
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		<title>By: Billy Beck</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/comment-page-1/#comment-171313</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy Beck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10515#comment-171313</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;There are two problems with this approach.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Bullshit.

There is one problem with &quot;this approach&quot;, and it&#039;s that you&#039;re talking about stolen money.

Get your head on straight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;There are two problems with this approach.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Bullshit.</p>
<p>There is one problem with &#8220;this approach&#8221;, and it&#8217;s that you&#8217;re talking about stolen money.</p>
<p>Get your head on straight.</p>
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		<title>By: adam</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/comment-page-1/#comment-171169</link>
		<dc:creator>adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 00:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10515#comment-171169</guid>
		<description>No one talks about the push down-pop up problem, in regards to eminent domain.  If you make a neighborhood better and the previous tenants can&#039;t afford to live there, they move to a new neighborhood and create crime there.  You may have reduced crime in one area, but it has just moved elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one talks about the push down-pop up problem, in regards to eminent domain.  If you make a neighborhood better and the previous tenants can&#8217;t afford to live there, they move to a new neighborhood and create crime there.  You may have reduced crime in one area, but it has just moved elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/comment-page-1/#comment-171153</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10515#comment-171153</guid>
		<description>If businesses are only willing to develop where there are (temporary) tax breaks, then those businesses will only remain as long as the tax break remains. 
Remember, the difference between socialist ideals and libertarian ideals are not the goals, but the means and outcomes. in theory, TIFs work great. However, when applied, they reek of corruption and political pandering.
Don&#039;t let your goals cloud your judgement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If businesses are only willing to develop where there are (temporary) tax breaks, then those businesses will only remain as long as the tax break remains.<br />
Remember, the difference between socialist ideals and libertarian ideals are not the goals, but the means and outcomes. in theory, TIFs work great. However, when applied, they reek of corruption and political pandering.<br />
Don&#8217;t let your goals cloud your judgement.</p>
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		<title>By: Perry</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/comment-page-1/#comment-171121</link>
		<dc:creator>Perry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10515#comment-171121</guid>
		<description>Tim,

While i am a libertarian, I still think that TIF&#039;s do have the capacity to be a useful development tool.  Most TIF&#039;s are set up to finance infrastructure improvements such as roadways and streetscapes that are for public use and not given as a cash contribution. (not knowing Missouri&#039;s laws, i&#039;m not sure if this is the case there..)

However, I have two issues with your analysis:  

1) Development is not a zero sum game.  Yes, that Wal-Mart could go anywhere.  But perhaps the location of THAT Walmart would be so good that it wouldn&#039;t impact the business decision of placement of another store in the area.  Maybe that Walmart entices a Target to come and set up a competing store nearby.  also benefit the tax rolls of some level of govt, if not that municipality. 

2) If businesses are being given tax breaks or eminent domain as a package in combination with TIF, than its not the actual TIF thats causing lost revenue.  Theoretically, (and depending on state laws) TIFs should be set up to draw away only revenues that are to go to the general fund of the municipality and redirect them towards paying debt service on the issued bonds.  

In some municipalities all revenues (including school and county) go towards the TIF, but thats is more a problem of the language in the legislation than the concept.  The actual taxes paid by the landowner/developer should be the same as they ordinarily would be if only TIF is considered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim,</p>
<p>While i am a libertarian, I still think that TIF&#8217;s do have the capacity to be a useful development tool.  Most TIF&#8217;s are set up to finance infrastructure improvements such as roadways and streetscapes that are for public use and not given as a cash contribution. (not knowing Missouri&#8217;s laws, i&#8217;m not sure if this is the case there..)</p>
<p>However, I have two issues with your analysis:  </p>
<p>1) Development is not a zero sum game.  Yes, that Wal-Mart could go anywhere.  But perhaps the location of THAT Walmart would be so good that it wouldn&#8217;t impact the business decision of placement of another store in the area.  Maybe that Walmart entices a Target to come and set up a competing store nearby.  also benefit the tax rolls of some level of govt, if not that municipality. </p>
<p>2) If businesses are being given tax breaks or eminent domain as a package in combination with TIF, than its not the actual TIF thats causing lost revenue.  Theoretically, (and depending on state laws) TIFs should be set up to draw away only revenues that are to go to the general fund of the municipality and redirect them towards paying debt service on the issued bonds.  </p>
<p>In some municipalities all revenues (including school and county) go towards the TIF, but thats is more a problem of the language in the legislation than the concept.  The actual taxes paid by the landowner/developer should be the same as they ordinarily would be if only TIF is considered.</p>
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		<title>By: Pinette</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/21/you-cant-understand-tif-without-eminent-domain/comment-page-1/#comment-171104</link>
		<dc:creator>Pinette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10515#comment-171104</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m loving these entries. If you are taking requests, I&#039;d love to see your take on Enterprise Zones in California.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m loving these entries. If you are taking requests, I&#8217;d love to see your take on Enterprise Zones in California.</p>
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