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	<title>Comments on: Howdy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: chennaibangaloremumbaidelhi.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Today&#8217;s Politico</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-173432</link>
		<dc:creator>chennaibangaloremumbaidelhi.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Today&#8217;s Politico</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 06:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-173432</guid>
		<description>[...] Howdy theagitator.com [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Howdy theagitator.com [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Attack the System &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Updated News Digest August 17, 2008</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-169904</link>
		<dc:creator>Attack the System &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Updated News Digest August 17, 2008</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 00:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-169904</guid>
		<description>[...] The Temperance Movement&#8217;s Effect on Drug Use by Radley Balko [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Temperance Movement&#8217;s Effect on Drug Use by Radley Balko [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Agitator &#187; Blog Archive &#187; American idealism</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-169514</link>
		<dc:creator>The Agitator &#187; Blog Archive &#187; American idealism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-169514</guid>
		<description>[...] Back to the temperance movement. This excerpt follows directly after this one.  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Back to the temperance movement. This excerpt follows directly after this one.  [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Positive Liberty &#187; Occasional Notes: They Get What They Deserve</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-169395</link>
		<dc:creator>Positive Liberty &#187; Occasional Notes: They Get What They Deserve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 00:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-169395</guid>
		<description>[...] It&#8217;s Not One Thing, It&#8217;s the Other: Guest-blogging at The Agitator, Ryan Grim gives us an excerpt from his forthcoming book:  What we think of as today&#8217;s major drugs almost all entered American culture in the mid-19th [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] It&#8217;s Not One Thing, It&#8217;s the Other: Guest-blogging at The Agitator, Ryan Grim gives us an excerpt from his forthcoming book:  What we think of as today&#8217;s major drugs almost all entered American culture in the mid-19th [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: The Agitator &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Blowback</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-169182</link>
		<dc:creator>The Agitator &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Blowback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-169182</guid>
		<description>[...] Latin America section. I&#8217;ll return in a day or two to the temperance movement and can&#8217;t thank you guys enough for the comments. You caught some things that otherwise would have gotten past me and helped with some context on the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Latin America section. I&#8217;ll return in a day or two to the temperance movement and can&#8217;t thank you guys enough for the comments. You caught some things that otherwise would have gotten past me and helped with some context on the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bot</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-169177</link>
		<dc:creator>Bot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-169177</guid>
		<description>My toast to all prohibitionists everywhere:  may you take healthy things such as long life into moderation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My toast to all prohibitionists everywhere:  may you take healthy things such as long life into moderation.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Grim</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-169176</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Grim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-169176</guid>
		<description>Great catch, Larry. That&#039;s sloppy writing on my part. I&#039;ll fix it in the draft. Here are the numbers: In 1879 there were 26,843 members. By 1910 it was 248,343 and by 1921, 345,949. I shouldn&#039;t have said ten-fold without giving a base number. Okay, to South America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great catch, Larry. That&#8217;s sloppy writing on my part. I&#8217;ll fix it in the draft. Here are the numbers: In 1879 there were 26,843 members. By 1910 it was 248,343 and by 1921, 345,949. I shouldn&#8217;t have said ten-fold without giving a base number. Okay, to South America.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna Blainey Warner</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-169085</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna Blainey Warner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-169085</guid>
		<description>Ryan, I find your project really interesting but I don&#039;t think you really understand where the temperance women were coming from or have really explored their ideology. 

I did a PhD on the Australian WCTU which was very similar to the American body - many of its branches were founded by American women and they regularly used American literature. It is important to realise that the WCTU (and indeed much of the temperance movement) was primarily against the liquor sellers - particularly the saloon keepers.  The drinkers they saw as the saloon&#039;s poor victims who would be &quot;rescued&quot; tough laws against manufacture and sale of liquor.  And it was the manufacture and sale which they wanted to outlaw - not the consumption as such. That is why the temperance women saw prohibition as a religious duty - they believed that it was part of the Christian principle of protecting the suffering. It is not enough to say that the WCTU was &quot;religious&quot; in motivation - you must understand why they saw temperance/prohibition as a religious duty. It was not because of biblical literalism (as some mistakenly believe) or out of blind duty to any religous authority. Also the WCTU could not be said to be particularly nationalist - despite their slogan. Through the World WCTU it was one of the early international organisations!

Don&#039;t get me wrong - I would never support alcohol prohibition and am not that keen on drug prohibition either. But if you misrepresent the motives of those who introduced bad policies then you are not learning the full lessons. The idea of drinkers (and smokers for that matter) as victims of big business is making a comeback. I think that shows that we still haven&#039;t learnt from the mistakes of WCTU and prohibition.

Also, to confirm a link between the temperance movement and the rise of drug use you would need to see whether drug use was highest in &quot;dry&quot; counties and towns. I would have thought that drug use was highest in the cities and they were least likely to be &quot;dry&quot; in the late 19th/early 20th century. If you have any information to the contrary let me know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan, I find your project really interesting but I don&#8217;t think you really understand where the temperance women were coming from or have really explored their ideology. </p>
<p>I did a PhD on the Australian WCTU which was very similar to the American body &#8211; many of its branches were founded by American women and they regularly used American literature. It is important to realise that the WCTU (and indeed much of the temperance movement) was primarily against the liquor sellers &#8211; particularly the saloon keepers.  The drinkers they saw as the saloon&#8217;s poor victims who would be &#8220;rescued&#8221; tough laws against manufacture and sale of liquor.  And it was the manufacture and sale which they wanted to outlaw &#8211; not the consumption as such. That is why the temperance women saw prohibition as a religious duty &#8211; they believed that it was part of the Christian principle of protecting the suffering. It is not enough to say that the WCTU was &#8220;religious&#8221; in motivation &#8211; you must understand why they saw temperance/prohibition as a religious duty. It was not because of biblical literalism (as some mistakenly believe) or out of blind duty to any religous authority. Also the WCTU could not be said to be particularly nationalist &#8211; despite their slogan. Through the World WCTU it was one of the early international organisations!</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong &#8211; I would never support alcohol prohibition and am not that keen on drug prohibition either. But if you misrepresent the motives of those who introduced bad policies then you are not learning the full lessons. The idea of drinkers (and smokers for that matter) as victims of big business is making a comeback. I think that shows that we still haven&#8217;t learnt from the mistakes of WCTU and prohibition.</p>
<p>Also, to confirm a link between the temperance movement and the rise of drug use you would need to see whether drug use was highest in &#8220;dry&#8221; counties and towns. I would have thought that drug use was highest in the cities and they were least likely to be &#8220;dry&#8221; in the late 19th/early 20th century. If you have any information to the contrary let me know.</p>
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		<title>By: JIMI D</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-169014</link>
		<dc:creator>JIMI D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-169014</guid>
		<description>Very nice!!!!

Can we get a taste of the chapter on south america?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nice!!!!</p>
<p>Can we get a taste of the chapter on south america?</p>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168980</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168980</guid>
		<description>Around 70 women walked out of church, and over the next 4 decades the organization grew tenfold. That suggests that the WTCU had a membership of 700 at that point. Can you clarify this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Around 70 women walked out of church, and over the next 4 decades the organization grew tenfold. That suggests that the WTCU had a membership of 700 at that point. Can you clarify this?</p>
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		<title>By: HtownGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168923</link>
		<dc:creator>HtownGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168923</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;….interesting argument that anti-prohibition people used, though, that has some resonance today: With the economy in the crapper through the ’30s and the government in need of revenue for its expansion, folks argued that alcohol should be legalized and taxed as a way to create jobs and help ease out of the depression. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don’t think that argument would get any traction with the ruling class today, law enforcement and the prison industry have hugely benefitted from the war. Ending prohibition really just displaced the lawless treasury agents (the Untouchables).  Ending the War on Drugs would displace a massive domestic war economy.

Side note, finding something for those treasury agents to do has had terrible consequences. The NFA act of 1934 was passed Federally to create instant massive non-compliance (nobody paid the $200 taxes on their very common $20 machineguns) giving those treasury agents something to enforce. They’ve become the ATF who still enforce the tax, but will incarcerate or kill Americans for suspected non-payment. The lawless booze-police have become the lawless gun-police.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>….interesting argument that anti-prohibition people used, though, that has some resonance today: With the economy in the crapper through the ’30s and the government in need of revenue for its expansion, folks argued that alcohol should be legalized and taxed as a way to create jobs and help ease out of the depression. </p></blockquote>
<p>I don’t think that argument would get any traction with the ruling class today, law enforcement and the prison industry have hugely benefitted from the war. Ending prohibition really just displaced the lawless treasury agents (the Untouchables).  Ending the War on Drugs would displace a massive domestic war economy.</p>
<p>Side note, finding something for those treasury agents to do has had terrible consequences. The NFA act of 1934 was passed Federally to create instant massive non-compliance (nobody paid the $200 taxes on their very common $20 machineguns) giving those treasury agents something to enforce. They’ve become the ATF who still enforce the tax, but will incarcerate or kill Americans for suspected non-payment. The lawless booze-police have become the lawless gun-police.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Grim</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168904</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Grim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168904</guid>
		<description>dsmallwood -- I do get into prohibition and will post something on that. Here&#039;s an interesting argument that anti-prohibition people used, though, that has some resonance today: With the economy in the crapper through the &#039;30s and the government in need of revenue for its expansion, folks argued that alcohol should be legalized and taxed as a way to create jobs and help ease out of the depression. 

Masshole -- I&#039;ve got a chapter on something along those lines. I&#039;ll post excerpts over the next few days. I&#039;m glad you guys are enjoying it and am grateful for the feedback, both the good and the bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dsmallwood &#8212; I do get into prohibition and will post something on that. Here&#8217;s an interesting argument that anti-prohibition people used, though, that has some resonance today: With the economy in the crapper through the &#8217;30s and the government in need of revenue for its expansion, folks argued that alcohol should be legalized and taxed as a way to create jobs and help ease out of the depression. </p>
<p>Masshole &#8212; I&#8217;ve got a chapter on something along those lines. I&#8217;ll post excerpts over the next few days. I&#8217;m glad you guys are enjoying it and am grateful for the feedback, both the good and the bad.</p>
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		<title>By: MassHole</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168901</link>
		<dc:creator>MassHole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168901</guid>
		<description>Curious if you plan to discuss how the &quot;War on Drugs&quot; has become a cover for corrupting and controlling south american governments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curious if you plan to discuss how the &#8220;War on Drugs&#8221; has become a cover for corrupting and controlling south american governments?</p>
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		<title>By: dsmallwood</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168900</link>
		<dc:creator>dsmallwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168900</guid>
		<description>this is very good; i look forward to the book.  do you plan to delve into prohibition and the repeal of prohibition?  i&#039;ve been thinking lately about our &#039;war on drugs&#039; and how i can present a palatable arguement against it.  &quot;pro-drugs&quot; isn&#039;t a viable position, so i was considering researching the repeal and how the political arguments were put forth.  can you speak to that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is very good; i look forward to the book.  do you plan to delve into prohibition and the repeal of prohibition?  i&#8217;ve been thinking lately about our &#8216;war on drugs&#8217; and how i can present a palatable arguement against it.  &#8220;pro-drugs&#8221; isn&#8217;t a viable position, so i was considering researching the repeal and how the political arguments were put forth.  can you speak to that?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168897</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168897</guid>
		<description>Excellent post.  The part about drug use exploding in response to temperance is particularly good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post.  The part about drug use exploding in response to temperance is particularly good.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Grim</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168895</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Grim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168895</guid>
		<description>shameless, I know</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>shameless, I know</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Moore</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168893</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168893</guid>
		<description>4/20, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>4/20, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Grim</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168877</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Grim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168877</guid>
		<description>Good point about the sanitary drinking water, I&#039;ll add something about that. How big a factor would you speculate that was? Regarding the &quot;three times as much,&quot; I&#039;m talking ethanol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point about the sanitary drinking water, I&#8217;ll add something about that. How big a factor would you speculate that was? Regarding the &#8220;three times as much,&#8221; I&#8217;m talking ethanol.</p>
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		<title>By: Lior</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/08/13/howdy/comment-page-1/#comment-168872</link>
		<dc:creator>Lior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10478#comment-168872</guid>
		<description>Until sanitary drinking water became the norm, (weak) beer and wine were much safer to drink than water, so I&#039;m not surprised at the high consumption early on.  When you say &quot;three times as much&quot; are you comparing the total liquid volume or the amount of ethanol?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Until sanitary drinking water became the norm, (weak) beer and wine were much safer to drink than water, so I&#8217;m not surprised at the high consumption early on.  When you say &#8220;three times as much&#8221; are you comparing the total liquid volume or the amount of ethanol?</p>
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