TheAgitator.com
Mandatory Volunteerism
Wednesday, July 23rd, 2008Over at the Volokh Conspiracy, Jim Lindgren lays out the powerful players in Service Nation, a creepy new push for national service. The campaign appears to pretty Obama-friendly, jibing with his recent call for a national service bureaucracy that’s "just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded" as the military. Of course, McCain has certainly expressed a fondness for the "a cause greater than yourself" mindset too, including a fondness for—quite literally—the sight of uniformed cadres of young people preparing for a day of service with calisthenics in the public square.
The Service Nation Summit kickoff event is getting promotional help from Time magazine, whose Managing Editor Rick Stengel is a co-chair. Seems like an odd undertaking for a newsweekly, doesn’t it? But then, Time has an annoying habit of crossing over into advocacy on issues its editors have deemed too important to leave to impartial reportage.
Lindgren points out that though the campaign is couched in terms that make it appear oriented toward merely encouraging volunteerism, some of its top officials have a history of supporting a more coercive definition "service," including support for Rep. Charlie Rengel’s (D-N.Y.) bill to bring back conscription. Most ominously, one of the group’s stated goals is to "[l]aunch a debate about why and how America should become a nation of universal national service by 2020."
Note the absence of the word "if."
When I’ve spoken of these sorts of initiatives with my husband, he always says, “it’ll never pass… it won’t happen here.”
I’m forced to wonder what is the likelihood that this sort of thing will happen. Will my children be forced to serve? I’d like to know some probabilities, so I can work on my plans to defect.
The problem is, where to?!?
I wonder what sorts of penalties they will come up with for not “volunteering” for the service. What sorts of “service” will it be?
Bronwyn, I’ve wondered the same thing as well. I try and dismiss it as ridiculous and not possible in this country but that is becoming more and more difficult.
If it comes down to it, I guess I’ll be a criminal for not volunteering my time.
First the government must disarm the populace.
Then again, a majority of the populace is a collection of sheep being led to the fleecing and slaughter.
Those who stand up against the government are branded criminals and destroyed. And the argument “We are a nation of laws” is employed and we, the sheep, are expected to abide by any law that is passed by the state.
So it really doesn’t matter if the people are disarmed as they will continue to follow the state for all intents and purposes. Those who stand against the “heroes” of liberty and justice will be cast in the most negative light by the media.
My friends, socialism/communism and the forfeiture of autonomy has come to America.
It always does… it’s the nature of governments and why we have strict constitutional limitations to protect our liberties. Strict constitutional limitations that are increasingly legislated aside.
Good luck with that, the retention tools used by the U.S.S.R. and N. Korea are being implemented here.
Now that there is no frontier left on this planet to start over, we’re going to have to refresh that tree of liberty.
[quote]Now that there is no frontier left on this planet to start over, we’re going to have to refresh that tree of liberty.[/quote]
That’s what I’m afraid of.
How’s progress on finding that island? Are we interviewing monkey butlers yet?
I just went to their website…of course, they omit any mention of mandatory volunteering. They’d like us to believe that they are innocently promoting a culture of service.
I would support giving students the *option* to do something more hands-on and service-oriented in lieu of a year of high school or college, and maybe putting incentives around that such as college funding.
The benefits of having more young people serve their country and the world, while learning and growing from the experience is pretty easy to get behind. But it doesn’t cancel out the costs when we compromise our values and *force everyone* to do it.
One of the plans they’re floating right now is a free year of college for a year of service. That would get around constitutional concerns, and might actually pass if they can get the funding. Then it would be a slippery slope to truly mandatory volunteerism… hopefully, though, that will get knocked down by the courts.
I like Lindgren’s characterization of the service jerks use of the work “voluntary.” The service is mandatory, but because you get some choice about what sort of service you do, it’s also voluntary.
In the words of Inigo Montoya, “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
Htownguy, thanks for the link. I remember when my family lived overseas (in KSA), dad had to pay federal income taxes but, since we were from Texas he didn’t have to worry about state income taxes upon his return. It’s the reason why most expats moved to income tax-free states upon their repatriation.
Of course, none were interested in renunciation because even with the ridiculous fact of taxation, what American in their right mind would want to become a Saudi citizen?!?
Ok, there are some, but such people are few and far between.
Stengel’s — and by extension Time’s — promoting this cause is seriously problematic from a journalistic point of view. What happens if/when the greatly expensive national service programs runs into predictable problems such as pork-barrelling, patronage and the simple question of whether it’s a wise use of federal tax dollars compared to, say, fighting al Qaeda, reforming Medicare or whatever. Where will Time be then? Will they be able to pursue such stories aggressively, knowing their boss is a major advocate of this idea? It is one thing to be editorially in favor of this or that program; it is another thing to be active in helping to organize the political push to get the program enacted.
But then, Time has an annoying habit of crossing over into advocacy on issues its editors have deemed too important to leave to impartial reportage.
I understand why you might be annoyed with the positions that Time advocates, but why do you find advocacy by news magazines annoying per se? Do you find the editorial page of daily newspapers similarly annoying, or is it something about the combination of an advocacy piece, a weekly publication cycle, and glossy pages that gets your goat?
parse - Isn’t there a wall between the news and editorial pages of a newspaper? That’s one difference here… Rick Stengel isn’t the editor of editorial content for Time, he’s the editor of Time, period.
Not that I have a problem with that. At least they’re being transparent about it, so I can disregard as hopelessly biased any stories about national service that Time publishes.
As someone who served in a voluntary search and rescue organization (the Civil Air Patrol) during my ‘teen and early adult years, I have nothing against actual volunteering. But to be ‘volunteered’, well, that’s another issue entirely. It looks like an attempt to make use of what amounts to cheap labor (don’t we already have enough of that?) under the rubric of ‘national service’ while somebody’s else’s wallet gets fattened. No thanks; let the twits who proposed this be the first in line.
I have nothing against national service as long as it is strictly voluntary. By making it mandatory, it loses the whole “Volunteer” part.
Makes me ill just thinking about it.
Forcing youth into large groups for “National Service”. Kind of reminds me of the Hitler Youth..
Matt, I think the wall you are describing is typically said to exist between the news/editorial department and the publisher, not the news and editorial pages.
Further, Matt, the fact that Time clearly has an opinion about National Service doesn’t demonstrate that any stories the magazine publishes regarding the issue will be “hopelessly biased.” Think about Radley’s work about Cory Maye or on the issue of no-knock raids–he often posts messages that advocate a particular position. That doesn’t prove that the factual reportage he also provides on those topics should be disregarded as the work of a biased partisan.
The full rundown on Volokh is well worth reading. These people are really, really scary.
And it might not be just your kids, either. They are apparently into a plan that would require service from everyone ages 18 to 42.
I just find the whole idea so repugnant, and I’m not an Obama fan to begin with, but I can’t understand why a black man running for president is promoting slavery. Yes, I said it, because that’s what it is. Sorry.
That’s true, parse, I shouldn’t dismiss their reporting out of hand, but I will use a jaundiced eye to read it.
As far as the news/editorial wall, here’s what an editorial from my former hometown newspaper said:
I think having the “option” to do more service-oriented work (as Nick T suggested) in lieu of either primary or secondary education will just blur the line between volunteering and conscription. I know 3/4 of my high school class would have gone for “volunteering” just to get out of sitting through geometry class. And as for adding incentives, the military already offers college, health benefits, and now “up to $40000 to start a business.” I can tell you, most of these benefits suck, but like pedophiles luring children with candy, the gubmint will continue to prey on young impressionable high schoolers. Once everyone has done their “volunteering,” won’t they be entitled to their fair share (free health care, free education, etc.)? And how long will we be able to afford to provide that? Whether it’s optional with incentives, mandatory volunteering, or outright conscription, it seems to be a nice social engineering plan to make us more dependent on government.
Boo friggin Hoo.
Oh no! The big bad federal government wants some of my time!!
You’re all a bunch of big ole babies…
Don’t want to join the military, don’t. What is so hard about giving some time to your communities? I know. You’ll all claim that you to that already you just don’t want to be forced to do it. That’s idiotic. What whould you do if the feds ordered everyone to inhale and exhale on a regular basis? Grow up.
Or perhaps you’ll claim that it’s your right to do nothing. Show me somewhere in the Constitution where it says that - and don’t bring out that friggin’ “right to privacy” BS.
Despite all the rhetoric and ad nauseum braying about liberty, you Libertarians are all just a bunch of stoned NIMBYs.
I can’t understand why a black man running for president is promoting slavery. Yes, I said it, because that’s what it is. Sorry.
1) Race has nothing to do with it. If he personally stands to gain from doing X, I fully expect he’ll do X, just like anybody else in Washington.
2) “Sorry”. I noticed some months ago that it’s ingrained into our society to apologize in all sorts of situations where you aren’t sorry at all. Apologizing for pointing out the truth implies that the speaker should have been more tactful or gentle in speaking the truth, or perhaps even should have kept it to himself. When I started paying attention to false apologies, I was shocked at how often they are casually thrown about, and even now I still catch myself issuing them from time to time.
I’d support this movement if the proponents of said movement are the first to have to enjoy their mandatory volunteerism. I say start with the baby boomers and work downwards.
What? You mean they have lives they have to take care of? Funny, I thought that’d cut both ways.
Change Agents
U.S. Public Service Academy
New Citizens Congress
I imagine I’ll get flamed for this…and I hate to generalize and go Godwin, but this has the stink of fascism written all over it.
Htownguy:
Good luck with that, the retention tools used by the U.S.S.R. and N. Korea are being implemented here.
————————————–
What Do the U.S., North Korea, and the Old Soviet Union Have in Common?
Sadly, the answer to this question is that the United States is in unsavory company because of taxation.
For one thing, the U.S. Internal Revenue Code applies even to citizens who live and work abroad, an approach followed by very few nations other than hell-holes like North Korea. No other developed nation has this “citizenship-based” tax system, largely because it is unfair and anti-competitive. It is unfair because Americans who live and work abroad already are subject to all applicable foreign taxes (much as foreigners who live and work in the U.S. get the pleasure of dealing with the IRS). And it it anti-competitive because this punitive policy makes it harder for U.S. firms to earn a larger share of the market when competing in foreign markets. America’s tax policy is so punitive that some people are giving up their citizenship. But rather than dealing with this problem by fixing the tax code, politicians have decided to impose punitive exit taxes. The Economist has some of the unpleasant details:
Queues of frustrated foreigners crowd many an American consulate around the world hoping to get into the United States. Less noticed are the heavily taxed American expatriates wanting to get out — by renouncing their citizenship. In Hong Kong just now, they cannot. “Please note that this office cannot accept renunciation applications at this time,” the consulate’s website states. Apart from sounding like East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall, the closure is unfortunately timed. Because of pending legislation on President Bush’s desk that is expected to become law by June 16th, any American who wants to surrender his passport has only a few days to do so before facing an enormous penalty.
…Congress has turned on expats, especially those who, since new tax laws in 2006, have become increasingly eager to give up their citizenship to escape the taxman. Under the proposed legislation, expatriates surrendering their citizenship with a net worth of $2m or more, or a high income, will have to act as if they have sold all their worldwide assets at a fair market price.
…That expats want to leave at all is evidence of America’s odd tax system. Along with citizens of North Korea and a few other countries, Americans are taxed based on their citizenship, rather than where they live. So they usually pay twice — to their host country and the Internal Revenue Service. As this makes citizenship less palatable, Congress has erected large barriers to stop them jumping ship. …[I]t may have the opposite effect. Under the new structure, it would make financial sense for any young American working overseas with a promising career to renounce his citizenship as early as possible, before his assets accumulate.
Another embarrassing feature of U.S. tax law is that exit taxes historically have been adopted only by the world’s most reprehensible regimes. As Richard Rahn explains in the Washington Times, the United States should not mimic the Soviet Union by confiscating the wealth of people who displease the ruling elites:
One of [the] old Soviet Union’s actions that was most heavily and correctly criticized by human-rights activists both left and right was its confiscation of the wealth of those who chose to leave the U.S.S.R. The right to emigrate is considered by civilized people to be a basic human right. Regretfully and embarrassingly, the U.S. Congress has just passed a law that places a higher tax burden (and in some cases wealth confiscation) on those who choose to permanently leave the United States, and may make some “tax hostages.”
…People who choose to renounce their citizenship are often looked upon as traitors, both by those in totalitarian and authoritarian states, and unfortunately sometimes by those in democratic societies, even when their intentions are benign. Many who immigrated to America over the last four centuries had some, or most of, their wealth in the old country taken from them in one form or another. This was rightly considered unjust. Yet, the descendants of many of those who suffered just voted to do something similar that differs only in degree, but not in kind or spirit.
…The apologists for Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez will be able to point to this new U.S. law and ask why this is any different from the property takings by the aforementioned thugs? Yes, it is [a] bit different, but behind it is the same mean-spiritedness and disregard for property rights and the right to emigrate because of political beliefs. Such laws only make the United States look hypocritical to the rest of the world.
—————————————————
Great, so by moving to China to teach and be with my wife, I have to pay the American communists, and the Chinese communists…
What whould you do if the feds ordered everyone to inhale and exhale on a regular basis?
I’d probably hold my breath as long as I could.
#20:
The Constitution doesn’t grant rights - it either respects them or it doesn’t. My right not to be coerced by the government (or any third party) exists independently of any piece of paper.
But for the record, the Constitutional issue isn’t that I have a “right” not to be coerced into “volunteerism” (although I think the 9th Amendment would cover it handily), but that the federal government is one of limited and enumerated powers, and none of those limited and enumerated powers includes forcing people under pain of penalty to go dish out food at soup kitchens or plant trees in the park.
They are apparently into a plan that would require service from everyone ages 18 to 42.
Well, ain’t I lucky that 2020 happens to be the year I turn 42.
and #20, what the fuck are you talking about? No government is entitled to any of my time and that has nothing to do with what I want or do not want in my back yard.
What Zeb said. When the government starts paying my bills, they can entitle themselves to my time. Until then they should shut the fuck up. I’m doing my part by paying taxes, not my fault they piss that money away on stupid shit.
I think nicole said it well, that this would be slavery if it was mandatory. Isn’t if funny how society seems to think that the very term “slavery” refers specifically to a period in time when black individuals were forced into servitude? Even though it’s starting to happen again (and even though we had other forms in the recent past, such as the military draft), many people shy away from referring to this as the blatant enslaving of the general American populace that it truly is. If the government can tell me where, when, and how my time will be spent (doing tasks that they wouldn’t even do), then what reason is there to stop them from putting a camera in every house, office, street corner and restroom? Like the tired saying goes, “if you have nothing to hide, then you shouldn’t oppose it”. It goes far beyond having nothing to hide…it indicates that one entity (and lately even just a single man) has some superiority over the public which entitles him to tell me how my life should be lived. We are told what we can and cannot drink, we are told that beer cannot be mixed with other spirits, we are told that we must always pay the government before we can earn our own money, we are told exactly what plant we are allowed to eat and which one we are not allowed to eat, and the list goes on. Our lives are becoming more and more controlled in every aspect by a government which does not care about its people.
And people like Ira (#20) really scare me…it’s because of those kinds of people that we see the government making these rulings. After all, if most of America was vehemently opposed to these kinds of edicts, our shouts of dissent would be heard everywhere.
So Ira, if you want to volunteer your time then go ahead, I’m not going to stop you. If you want to try and discuss why volunteering is a good thing for society, I’ll listen patiently. But if you want to tell us all to stop whining while our autonomy and rights are being stripped from us, then leave our presence and cease your mindless rant, as we are united by our love of liberty and the desire to live free throughout all of our days.
Which brings me to another point, at what point while working to feed myself and put gas in my car and insurance on said car and maybe if there’s something left over new tires on said car so said car doesn’t have a blowout and fucking kill me am I supposed to make time to work for this “voluntary” service?
I do have obligations you know.
“Now that there is no frontier left on this planet to start over, we’re going to have to refresh that tree of liberty.”
Just exactly how to do that is another discussion, but there is no question but that this is it: this fight, in this place and time. There is nowhere else to go.
I’m an American, goddammit. I might go down with the ship, but I’m not leaving my home.
“I’m not an Obama fan to begin with, but I can’t understand why a black man running for president is promoting slavery. Yes, I said it, because that’s what it is. Sorry.”
{cackle} In another context at Samizdata, one wag pointed out: “Some changes to tradition are good. Once only blacks could be slaves.”
“Or perhaps you’ll claim that it’s your right to do nothing. Show me somewhere in the Constitution where it says that.”
Show me somewhere in the Constitution where it says that you have the right to grow begonias. Or brush your teeth. Or change the oil in your car. Or walk your dog.
…or be a fuckin’ idiot.
Show me where it says you can do just about anything.
#19, in order to meet the demands of promised entitlements, when people go to collect, you hold out your hand for a handshake and when the person reaches, you pull back, run your hand over your hair, and yell PSYCHE. Worked in school, should also work for this!
….and just what does Obama expect this national service bureaucracy that’s “just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded” as the military to do…….make sure everyone makes it to the polls on election day and votes for him?
I think I’ll pass……
Funny you are all making a big deal about this now. Has anybody noticed that this crap has been going on in our schools for years? Look at the requirements for graduation at almost any high school these days and you will find a requirement for voluntary community service. My neice just graduated and she had to have 40 hours documented before they would give her a diploma.
If you choose to do it, it is volunteering. If it is forced on you then it is servitude. If the government wants my time, it can damn well pay me for it.
By the way ,Ira, I’m a vet and I do volunteer my time and skills to causes that I support.
Maybe Radley will someday expound on why he has such harsh feelings for those who believe service to their country is an honorable path to take in life. What exactly about the idea that there are actually causes greater than one’s self freaks him out so badly?
What bothers me are self indulged, arrogant people who believe they are the center of the universe. If you don’t believe there is a cause greater than your own existence, then your existence is pretty shallow. I don’t think Radley is that type of person, based on his writings, so what is with all the hate for those who know what is actually important in life?
Tokin, you’ve misread the argument completely. I don’t think anyone, Radley or myself included, has harsh feelings for those who believe service is an honorable path. It’s the ones that want to turn that sentiment into an order that’s enforced with a gun that we all have contempt for. The criticism is limited to that and that alone.
…so what is with all the hate for those who know what is actually important in life?
I resent people who think their causes are so important that they should be able to compel other people to serve them, by coercion if necessary.
What bothers me are self indulged, arrogant people who believe they are the center of the universe.
Why exactly do they bother you? What harm are they doing to you? Who are you to tell them what they should be doing with their lives, or with their time?
If you don’t believe there is a cause greater than your own existence, then your existence is pretty shallow.
Why is that? What’s wrong with people just living their own lives, taking care of their families, and doing what makes them happy?
There’s also the problem of who’s cause we’re celebrating.
Let’s say I believe justice is an important cause. And I do. I write about criminal justice issues because I enjoy it, and because it makes me feel good about what I do for a living, even though I could make a lot more money doing other things. John McCain would still say I’m living a selfish existence. Why? Because I don’t support the causes he believes in. He mocks people, for example, who talk about the injustice of drug prohibition.
I’m not a God ‘n’ Country kind of guy. I believe the individual is more important than the collective. For people like McCain, I’m part of the problem. It’s not merely about the collective cause over the individual, you’re also unacceptable to them unless you give yourself up for the right causes.
#20 - You’re an idiot. Did you even read the amendments before posting this idiotic claptrap?
The 13th amendment, the one that abolished slavery, is very clear:
Now kindly shut up.
“If you don’t believe there is a cause greater than your own existence, then your existence is pretty shallow.”
Oh, yeah? {shrug} Well, I guess I’ll just have to find a way to deal with the terrible misery, and the fact that it’s none of your fucking business. Believe me: I’ll soldier on. Thanx anyway.
Me neither, and I like your spirit. I don’t think we have to go down with the ship. It only took 3% of the colonists to defeat the British, the world’s most powerful military at the time. We can do it again.
III
Tokin42 Said::
What bothers me are self indulged, arrogant people who believe they are the center of the universe. If you don’t believe there is a cause greater than your own existence, then your existence is pretty shallow. I don’t think Radley is that type of person, based on his writings, so what is with all the hate for those who know what is actually important in life?
———————————————–
Do I believe I’m the center of the Universe? No.
Am I the center of blood relatives that depend on me to take care of them? Yes.
Being forced to work for free for the government takes away from my ability to take care of my family. If you don’t like that, you can fuck off. They come first. They come before strangers who wouldn’t give me the time of day. Got it?
Robert Heinlein, two of my favorite SF writers, endorsed the idea of a National Service similar to Switzerland’s, which could be military or civilian. It looks like these folks removed the civilian option. And the idea of aiding “homeland security” makes my teeth hurt.
Whatever happened to volunteerism?
Billy Beck # 33, 9th amendment: “the enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”
This was exactly why the framers of the constitution didn’t want to provide a list of “rights”. Because they knew that you (and people like you) would pop up, saying, “it isn’t in there…”. That is why the 9th amendment exists, to keep people like you out of power; AND more importantly, keeping people like you from seizing power.
steve sky - Read Billy’s post again, then apologize. He was arguing the exact same point you are.
In one of his book George Carlin said, “Republicans are always pushing volunteering. You want to know why? Volunteers work for free. Hell, Republicans have been trying to get people to work for free, since, well, forever.”
Mandatory volunteering is not new to me. As a condition of my kids’ enrollment at their government school, albeit a magnet school that is not their neighborhood school, my family must contribute 10 hours per year of volunteer work. Fail to perform the 10 hours, enrollment will be terminated and the kids will go back to the neighborhood school.
Granted, 10 hours per year is not a hardship. But 6 years ago, when my daughter first attended the school, and I was made aware of the phrase “mandatory volunteer,” I was reduced to a fit of hysterical laughter the likes of which I have endured seldom since.
Sadly, these Statist ideas are far from harmless and can become quite virulent, eventually infecting all levels of society.
This calls for a giant exclamatory “FUUUUUCCCKKKKK!!!”
Andrew Williams, thanks for the laughs …
“Robert Heinlein, two of my favorite SF writers …”
1. First, it is my firm belief that Robert Heinlein was ONE writer. But I’ll hold out that I could be wrong.
2. It is possible that Robert is one writer and Heinlein is another. Possible. I’m not aware of a sci-fi writer, last name of Robert.
3. Perhaps Robert Heinlein was schizophrenic and actually wrote under two different personalities. Have to mull that one over. What did you say? Shut up! You shut up! No, you shut up! Sorry about that.
4. Maybe Andrew is like King Arthur from Monty Python and The Holy Grail, who couldn’t count — “One, two, five!” “Three, sir!” “Three!”
Just kidding man.
All that speculation aside, the part that strikes me as incongruous is Heinlein advocating State slavery. I was under the impression that Heinlein was the quintessential libertarian sci-fi writer of the 20th Century. I’ve seen his Moon Is A Harsh Mistress bandied about on many a lib website.
I was listening to CSPAN about 2 years ago and heard McCain talking about bringing back the draft, but not for military service only. He wanted to create something much like what Service Nation is in favor of. As far as I know, he is the only candidate that has openly supported this kind of servitude.
#39:
I think you’re mistaken about what McCain believes in terms of service, at least from my standpoint. Sure he’s a firm believer in military service, it’s in his blood, but I haven’t seen anything from him to indicate that military service is paramount to any other cause. I think you’re mistaken about how McCain would take your work. I think, like me, he’d believe you were doing something very important, especially in regards to your reporting on the abuses of local governments. You obviously don’t see eye to eye on drug prohibition but does that mean you can’t agree on other issues?
I’ve mentioned in another post of yours long ago that I think you do believe in a cause greater than yourself and you’ve mentioned it in your own response. Maybe I’m taking these comments personally because it seems to me that you’re biggest issue is with people like myself. people who believe the best thing they can do as an individual is to willfully subjugate themselves in the service of the nation that made my way of life and dreams possible. I don’t see anything wrong with that. I have a friend who joined the peace corp out of college and another who teaches land husbandry in central america, just because neither cause is something I want to jump into doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with what they are trying to accomplish.
Just because we disagree with people doesn’t mean we can’t respect what they do as individuals to better their neighborhood/country/planet. I said after the McCain-Feingold b.s. there was zero chance I’d ever vote for McCain, but I have to respect the man for doing what he believed was best for his country. The same goes for Feingold who I disagree with 98% of the time but seems to actually believe what he says and acts upon those beliefs. I don’t mean to defend McCain but everytime you post a snide comment about those of us who believe military service is the highest form of gratitude you can pay your nation, it makes me break out in a rash. I’m not a “god” person but I’m definitely a “country” person and I’m not going to apologize to anyone for that.
Finally,
If their family is their cause then they aren’t the self-centered bastards I was talking about. Parents who live their lives trying their best to raise their children to be responsible, respectful adults are absolutely performing a service to their neighbors and personally I think there are actually too few of them. It doesn’t matter what the cause is, as long as it’s something.
I stand by what I said, if someone believes they were put on this planet solely to exist then we’d be better of if that existence didn’t last very long.
>I stand by what I said, if someone believes they were put on this planet solely to exist then we’d be better of if that existence didn’t last very long.
But what if I believe that I wasn’t “put” on this earth at all? Will you begrudge me my full lifespan?
#53 -
Let’s avoid the strawman: There is no outcry here against people volunteering for what they decide is a worthy cause, nor against people finding meaning in something “greater than themselves”. The problem is when government makes volunteerism mandatory (among other things, demonstrating that they don’t know what the “volunteerism” means). At that point, the politicians determine what the “higher causes” will be and they will determine whether a citizen is being a “selfish bastard” for not serving their pet causes. In a decent country, the government doesn’t get to point a gun at me and decide what the best use of my time is, how my life is best spent, or which charitable notions I should support.
I have no doubt this will come about incrementally. There is already a push to expand the GI Bill. Next, there will be more programs to forgive college loan debt for graduates who sign on for “service”. (There are already plans to forgive loans for people who take government jobs.) Then, “volunteering” at Americorps (or whatever boondoggle of the day) will qualify one for a home loan or car loan or some other perk.
And, of course, all of these things will undeniably raise the cost of college, homes, cars, etc., making them less affordable to people who don’t sign on for the “volunteer” program, in turn increasing dependence on the program to the point where only relatively wealthy people can afford not to “volunteer”.
Also, keep in mind that taxes will have to rise to cover the added (soon-to-be-forgiven) loan costs and the cost of administering the “volunteer” program and it’s projects. And, there will be fewer people contributing, as the government-administered programs will reduce the time people have for productive work. And so on down the line…
#39, Radley, you said: “I’m not a God ‘n’ Country kind of guy. I believe the individual is more important than the collective.” I am with you completely in that comment except for those two sentences, where I don’t see any difference between (literally) fighting off the collective impulses of tyrants and protecting one’s culture and polity of God and Country. In fact, that’s what conservatism used to be before they decided “progressivism” was better than classic liberalism (it’s often called traditionalism now to distinguish it from pure libertarianism and neoconservatism, but that’s too often confused with a more complicated and less classic-liberal Catholic tradition).
If you don’t believe there is a cause greater than your own existence, then your existence is pretty shallow.
That is an entirely nonsensical claim. That is sort of like saying, “If you don’t believe that Keanu Reeves makes more money than you, then you don’t make much money”.
#40 and the rest of you fools:
Please enlighten as to how the 13th Amendment was not used to nullify the draft. Oh wait, perhaps you’re a brilliant Constitutional scholar who just found that! That must be it.
Please. Whether you accept it or not, you owe this country. We all do and giving some time to the common good is not un-American nor is it illegal for the government to ask that from us. Take little old idiot me for example… I didn’t want to serve in the military so I was a VISTA for a year in the inner-city. Then, I started my carreer and whoopdeefriggindo everybody got something out of my vonlunteering.
I say again, you are all a bunch of NIMBYs and slackers. You want all the benefits of living in this country and none of the responsibilities.
“What bothers me are self indulged, arrogant people who believe they are the center of the universe. If you don’t believe there is a cause greater than your own existence, then your existence is pretty shallow.”
But do you think that the state should make indifference to one’s own shallowness illegal?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/07/obamas_civilian_national_secur.html
Barack Obama’s recent words to promote his image as Community Organizer in Chief were not about forming a paramilitary force of volunteer brown shirts. They were about turning America into one, giant, community organizer’s sandbox at enormous cost to taxpayers.
Senator Obama was nearly 17 minutes into his July 2 speech (yet another one where naming Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was required) in Colorado Springs, Colorado when he deviated from his pre-released script and performed without the teleprompter net saying,
“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.” (emphasis added)
The immediate context for that amazing statement was a preview of parts of his plan to vastly expand community service opportunities for Americans of nearly all ages. He said,
“People of all ages, stations, and skills will be asked to serve.”
—————
I respect Radleys efforts on behalf of individual rights. Many people talk - he does things. But,
Radley, where is Obama in your post? Do you really think that ONLY McCain is a threat to the individual? Obama’s plans shriek of the collective.
“I say again, you are all a bunch of NIMBYs and slackers. You want all the benefits of living in this country and none of the responsibilities.”
Don’t we pay about half of everything we earn in local, state, and federal taxes? So we’re already giving half of our time to community service. How much is enough?
“Whether you accept it or not, you owe this country.”
Go fuck yourself.
#57 | Ira | July 24th, 2008 at 9:14 am
#40 and the rest of you fools:
Please enlighten as to how the 13th Amendment was not used to nullify the draft. Oh wait, perhaps you’re a brilliant Constitutional scholar who just found that! That must be it.
Please. Whether you accept it or not, you owe this country. We all do and giving some time to the common good is not un-American nor is it illegal for the government to ask that from us. Take little old idiot me for example… I didn’t want to serve in the military so I was a VISTA for a year in the inner-city. Then, I started my carreer and whoopdeefriggindo everybody got something out of my vonlunteering.
I say again, you are all a bunch of NIMBYs and slackers. You want all the benefits of living in this country and none of the responsibilities.
————————————————
Yes, I do owe this country for all the illegal wiretapping, illegal wars, terrorizing of my fellow citizens, decaying infrastructure and educational system….
And you know what?
I pay my debt every time I pay my taxes.
If the government would stop spending money on dumb shit, they could pay people to do the jobs they want to conscript “volunteers” for
If the government would stop spending money on dumb shit, they could pay people to do the jobs they want to conscript “volunteers” for
No no no no no. Let’s not encourage an expansion of the public sector along any lines, and particularly not along these stupid lines. Don’t overlook that “the jobs they want to conscript ‘volunteers’ for” would constitute even dumber dumb shit than the dumb shit you lament above.
haha Linda, fair enough, fair enough..
#57 | Ira | July 24th, 2008 at 9:14 am
…
Please. Whether you accept it or not, you owe this country. We all do and giving some time to the common good is not un-American nor is it illegal for the government to ask that from us.
————————————————————-
I’m astounded that a person could be so self-indulgent and arrogant as to believe he could force another person to be conscripted to work to bring about his own view of “the common good.” Perhaps you are not quite so bold as to think _you_ should be the one determining which version of “the common good” we are working towards, but if you are willing to give that decision up to our overlords than you are an even poorer excuse for an intelligent animal.
Maybe they would give us options of what service we do as slaves, but I find that unlikely. Even if they do, I expect it will be from a very narrow list of popular Politically Correct causes du jour. But I expect I would never be allowed to use my conscripted labor to listen to wiretaps of Congressional offices to try to reduce corruption, or to serve on a police oversight unit, or to work towards cutting all subsidies for all goods and services, domestic and abroad.
And personally, I think that those projects, and others like them, are the only sort that would help satisfy the debt I owe this country. Because what this country gave me (in ever dwindling supply) is freedom, and the only way to repay freedom is to continue to fight for it.
————————————————————-
You want all the benefits of living in this country and none of the responsibilities.
————————————————————-
Try again. The greatest responsibility of living in a free country is eternal vigilance in defense of her freedoms. (Not freedom, freedoms.) And that is an ongoing, losing battle, especially when someon like McCain, Obama, or yourself seems to think it patriotic to take them away.
#58, No where did I say anything about the state.
#56, that’s retarded. Re-read your statement and get back with me.
#53, that isn’t what radley was upset about in the McCain speech. McCain was speaking to a group of people who willingly signed up for Naval service and he was praising their decision and commitment. If all it takes is praising a group for putting on a military uniform to generate that kind of hostility, I see an issue. This isn’t the first time radley has made snide comments about people who believe military service is one of the highest forms of honor. Coming from a military family, I take that personally.
#65, You have a responsibility to your heritage whether you accept it or not. You have every right to sit on your ass complaining about what a horrible nation this is because someone with more honor and class chose to stand up and be counted. I don’t believe the government should be able to force you to “volunteer” for anything, but that doesn’t mean the rest of us who do don’t have the right to let you know your attitude blows. Americans aren’t born with a birthright, they earn the respect they deserve. Being incredibly lucky enough to be born here and pay taxes isn’t good enough. Either you work to make your neighborhood and society better, or you’re a drain on it.
Shorter “#66″: “Gimme dat ol’ time religion…”
Tokin42, let me just repeat what ShelbyC had to say, because apparently you missed it:
“Don’t we pay about half of everything we earn in local, state, and federal taxes? So we’re already giving half of our time to community service. How much is enough?”
Again, if 50% of our time is not enough, how much should we give? What is the appropriate amount of time to sacrifice for a good patriotic American? 60%? 70%? Hell, forget trying to raise a family. I’ll just enslave myself to the state full time and live off of food stamps. How does that sound?
You’re an ass flails about trying to use the constitution to support your arguments without actually reading the document (it’s written in plain English, btw, you don’t have to be a legal scholar to understand it), but I’ll answer you anyway.
Article I, section 8 of the constitution gives Congress the specific power to “raise and support armies” and “provide for the common defense.” The 13th amendment would have to specifically nullify that power in order to make the draft unconstitutional (doesn’t mean people didn’t try to argue that point during Vietnam, but they failed).
In closing, Ira, you’re a dick, and if you want to force any of your fellow citizens into servitude you’re going to have to get another amendment to the constitution passed. Good luck with that, jackass.
Progressives, like Obama, have used this process before, for example the CCC of the 1920s. A good read for everyone is the book,
_The_Cult_of_the_Presidency_ by Gene Healy. These same Progressive see war as a way to control the people. Putting young folks into these programs provides a preconditioned army for whatever the powers that be desire.
It is disconcerting that we have been purposely driven by our servants, pretending to be leaders (the President is merely the head butler of the US with 11 enumerated, limited powers), into the current system where people believe in the authority and power of the President (and even Congress) to do these things. Spend some time reading the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Understand the central concept of our government is one in which We the People tell THEM what to do. The Constitution is our set of rules for every part of the government. Anyone in government who fails to follow the People’s rules is a dishonorable person.
#69, it isn’t about money or taxes. I’ve never suggested at any time that we don’t pay enough money to our government for service rendered or that paying more is in anyway a good thing. But paying taxes is not the end-all for citizenship. That’s like saying a divorced parent is perfectly justified in saying that just by paying their child support they are doing all they need to do.
I’m at a loss as to why so many people automatically jump to the conclusion that you have to be a slave in order to do something for your community or that you don’t owe this nation and those who came before you a debt of gratitude. Just today Radley posted another story about the innocence project getting someone freed from an obviously unjust conviction. If that isn’t working for a cause (one that I’m glad someone is doing) I don’t know what is.
#67, People are born today with the idea that this country owes them something instead of being instilled with the lesson that it’s the other way around and then we wonder why so many things are getting more and more screwed up. We put more and more laws on the books because people are looking for the government to take care of every little issue in their lives instead of taking care of themselves. You’re kinda right, it’s sad that that kind of upbringing is considered “old time”.
#69 Way to use those internet balls you’ve grown!
Article 1 makes no mention of FORCING people to serve so your analogies and purposeful misreadings of the document only help to prove my point.
That point is that you are a simple little boy who would rather wail about the unfairness of having to grow up and shoulder the reponsibilities of adulthood and citizenship.
If you had your way and the world just left you alone to watch porn and and choke your chicken, we’d all live in peace and harmony. Right?
Grow up. And wait a year or two and I’m sure your real balls will drop.