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	<title>Comments on: St. Louis Cops Turn Forfeiture Policy Into Free Car Rental Service</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: Donald</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/comment-page-1/#comment-165203</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10324#comment-165203</guid>
		<description>The city posted my street for repairs on Saturday and towed all the cars on Sunday.  I was away for the weekend and came back to find my car gone.  When I complained, the street department explained if they posted signs with a reasonable advance notice, the sign would be removed by vandals (this wasn&#039;t a poor neighborhood).  When I went to pickup my car the charge was around $200.  I wrote on my check that I was paying under protest, they refused to take the check so I wrote another check without the comment.

The city goverment in St. Louis is a complete mess.  The rule of law barely exists and honest decent people basically avoid involvement.  I moved to Madison Wisconsin and am much happier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The city posted my street for repairs on Saturday and towed all the cars on Sunday.  I was away for the weekend and came back to find my car gone.  When I complained, the street department explained if they posted signs with a reasonable advance notice, the sign would be removed by vandals (this wasn&#8217;t a poor neighborhood).  When I went to pickup my car the charge was around $200.  I wrote on my check that I was paying under protest, they refused to take the check so I wrote another check without the comment.</p>
<p>The city goverment in St. Louis is a complete mess.  The rule of law barely exists and honest decent people basically avoid involvement.  I moved to Madison Wisconsin and am much happier.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald A</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/comment-page-1/#comment-156280</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerald A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10324#comment-156280</guid>
		<description>Here is the St Louis Post Dispatch latest:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/0A9D35B488018A768625748E0014C436?OpenDocument

All the from the PD that also brought us the World Series Ticket scandle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the St Louis Post Dispatch latest:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/0A9D35B488018A768625748E0014C436?OpenDocument" rel="nofollow">http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/0A9D35B488018A768625748E0014C436?OpenDocument</a></p>
<p>All the from the PD that also brought us the World Series Ticket scandle.</p>
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		<title>By: freedomfan</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/comment-page-1/#comment-155930</link>
		<dc:creator>freedomfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10324#comment-155930</guid>
		<description>BTW, accidentally called Hyde the House majority leader, when I meant to say he was the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee (and Conyers was, I think, the ranking Democrat). When I followed the issue at the time, it seemed like nearly all the opposition to reform was from police organizations. 

I have to agree with Phelps that there is such an obvious set of perverse incentives and lure to corruption (the police gets to keep what it takes from citizens) that it irks me there is almost no awareness of this as an issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, accidentally called Hyde the House majority leader, when I meant to say he was the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee (and Conyers was, I think, the ranking Democrat). When I followed the issue at the time, it seemed like nearly all the opposition to reform was from police organizations. </p>
<p>I have to agree with Phelps that there is such an obvious set of perverse incentives and lure to corruption (the police gets to keep what it takes from citizens) that it irks me there is almost no awareness of this as an issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Salguod</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/comment-page-1/#comment-155900</link>
		<dc:creator>Salguod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10324#comment-155900</guid>
		<description>A careful read of the underlying article shows that, oddly, the entity which is quoted as most critical of the chief is the police officer association (although as part of their own denial of wrongdoing).  This complicates the story.  An otherwise inexplicable factoid mentioned early on in the article: the current chief was given after two &quot;veteran officers&quot; were bypassed.

A bit of Googling shows that the daughter in question is facing &quot;unrelated&quot; charges for having stolen valuables and a credit card from her mother &amp; stepfather, as well as drug and child endangerment.  

The more complicated story, which the article only hints at, is probably something like this:

- Daughter exploited apparent connection to dad to get cheap cars to finance drug habit; police chief dad not told.
- Police chief dad learns about this at some point, tries to cover it up.
- When the full horror of the situation is exposed, police chief dad gets thrown under the bus by resentful fellow officers.
- Reflexive police &quot;courtesy&quot; (corruption) nevertheless had previously led to no charges for daughter on DUI.

So the net-net: it probably wasn&#039;t a straight-up bribe, it was likely a shakedown by the daughter under the apparent authority of dad, but it was facilitated by a pervasive atmosphere of &quot;back scratching&quot; corruption.

Still not a pretty picture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A careful read of the underlying article shows that, oddly, the entity which is quoted as most critical of the chief is the police officer association (although as part of their own denial of wrongdoing).  This complicates the story.  An otherwise inexplicable factoid mentioned early on in the article: the current chief was given after two &#8220;veteran officers&#8221; were bypassed.</p>
<p>A bit of Googling shows that the daughter in question is facing &#8220;unrelated&#8221; charges for having stolen valuables and a credit card from her mother &amp; stepfather, as well as drug and child endangerment.  </p>
<p>The more complicated story, which the article only hints at, is probably something like this:</p>
<p>- Daughter exploited apparent connection to dad to get cheap cars to finance drug habit; police chief dad not told.<br />
- Police chief dad learns about this at some point, tries to cover it up.<br />
- When the full horror of the situation is exposed, police chief dad gets thrown under the bus by resentful fellow officers.<br />
- Reflexive police &#8220;courtesy&#8221; (corruption) nevertheless had previously led to no charges for daughter on DUI.</p>
<p>So the net-net: it probably wasn&#8217;t a straight-up bribe, it was likely a shakedown by the daughter under the apparent authority of dad, but it was facilitated by a pervasive atmosphere of &#8220;back scratching&#8221; corruption.</p>
<p>Still not a pretty picture.</p>
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		<title>By: the brown acid</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/comment-page-1/#comment-155887</link>
		<dc:creator>the brown acid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10324#comment-155887</guid>
		<description>Ahh, but China, who has just signed the private property protection act into law, is the communist country...right...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahh, but China, who has just signed the private property protection act into law, is the communist country&#8230;right&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nick T</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/comment-page-1/#comment-155873</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:51:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10324#comment-155873</guid>
		<description>I just wanted to say that I am officially at police outrage fatigue.  This story prompted no emotional/visceral reaction from me whatsoever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanted to say that I am officially at police outrage fatigue.  This story prompted no emotional/visceral reaction from me whatsoever.</p>
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		<title>By: Phelps</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/comment-page-1/#comment-155863</link>
		<dc:creator>Phelps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10324#comment-155863</guid>
		<description>If you are going to make a freebooter force out of the police, why not just go all the way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are going to make a freebooter force out of the police, why not just go all the way?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Pack</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/comment-page-1/#comment-155827</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Pack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:39:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10324#comment-155827</guid>
		<description>If they do this openly,how much in drugs and cash are going out the back door?Easy access to the property of others is a huge temptation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they do this openly,how much in drugs and cash are going out the back door?Easy access to the property of others is a huge temptation.</p>
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		<title>By: freedomfan</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/21/st-louis-cops-turn-forfeiture-policy-into-private-car-rental-service/comment-page-1/#comment-155826</link>
		<dc:creator>freedomfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10324#comment-155826</guid>
		<description>Civil asset forfeiture is an ongoing outrage. The distinction between CAF and theft seems to come down to &quot;there is an expensive process whereby the victim can possibly regain his property.&quot; 

I haven&#039;t seen any movement on this in a long time, though there was once a fairly high-level bi-partisan effort to reform the system (from then-House majority leader Republican Henry Hyde and Democrat John Conyers - reading Hyde&#039;s 1995 _Forfeiting Our Property Rights_ is what made me aware of how widespread the problem is).

It seems like the obvious approach should be to remove the &quot;in rem&quot; aspect of the process. That is, maybe there is legitimate cause for LE to seize property that is a result of direct profit from criminal activity. But, that seizure must be absolutely contingent on the property owner being convicted of the crime which lead to the profit. Otherwise legal property cannot initially be seized without making an arrest and cannot be held for more than a few days without an indictment. (Even then, there has to be a reasonable time limit on - and hardship remedy for - seizures where the owner won&#039;t go to trial for a long time.) Finally, no conviction means the property must be returned and reasonable compensation made for damages and lost income directly resulting from the seizure, withOUT the owner needing to sue the government to get it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Civil asset forfeiture is an ongoing outrage. The distinction between CAF and theft seems to come down to &#8220;there is an expensive process whereby the victim can possibly regain his property.&#8221; </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t seen any movement on this in a long time, though there was once a fairly high-level bi-partisan effort to reform the system (from then-House majority leader Republican Henry Hyde and Democrat John Conyers &#8211; reading Hyde&#8217;s 1995 _Forfeiting Our Property Rights_ is what made me aware of how widespread the problem is).</p>
<p>It seems like the obvious approach should be to remove the &#8220;in rem&#8221; aspect of the process. That is, maybe there is legitimate cause for LE to seize property that is a result of direct profit from criminal activity. But, that seizure must be absolutely contingent on the property owner being convicted of the crime which lead to the profit. Otherwise legal property cannot initially be seized without making an arrest and cannot be held for more than a few days without an indictment. (Even then, there has to be a reasonable time limit on &#8211; and hardship remedy for &#8211; seizures where the owner won&#8217;t go to trial for a long time.) Finally, no conviction means the property must be returned and reasonable compensation made for damages and lost income directly resulting from the seizure, withOUT the owner needing to sue the government to get it.</p>
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