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	<title>Comments on: Police Dog, &#8220;Field Tests&#8221; Magically Find Pot, LSD in Chocolate Chip Cookies</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: The Agitator &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Super Sniffers</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-150154</link>
		<dc:creator>The Agitator &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Super Sniffers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-150154</guid>
		<description>[...] their noses are better trained than those in the chocolate chip cookie case.   Digg it&#160;&#124;&#160; reddit&#160;&#124;&#160; del.icio.us&#160;&#124;&#160; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] their noses are better trained than those in the chocolate chip cookie case.   Digg it&nbsp;|&nbsp; reddit&nbsp;|&nbsp; del.icio.us&nbsp;|&nbsp; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: roy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149488</link>
		<dc:creator>roy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149488</guid>
		<description>I was talking about whether the test can establish probable cause.  Are you talking about whether the results indicate they had probable cause to perform the test?  That math is a lot more complicated.  You have to look at the probability of the the stuff being drugs, and the probabilities of both false-positive and false-negative results.  You also have to look at the accuracy of the more thorough lab tests which people treat as the &quot;real&quot; result even though they can&#039;t possibly be perfect.

Besides, in a case like this, the police don&#039;t need probable cause or reasonable suspicion or even a hunch to perform the test.  The cookies were given to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was talking about whether the test can establish probable cause.  Are you talking about whether the results indicate they had probable cause to perform the test?  That math is a lot more complicated.  You have to look at the probability of the the stuff being drugs, and the probabilities of both false-positive and false-negative results.  You also have to look at the accuracy of the more thorough lab tests which people treat as the &#8220;real&#8221; result even though they can&#8217;t possibly be perfect.</p>
<p>Besides, in a case like this, the police don&#8217;t need probable cause or reasonable suspicion or even a hunch to perform the test.  The cookies were given to them.</p>
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		<title>By: supercat</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149453</link>
		<dc:creator>supercat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149453</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Since field tests are used during the “probable cause” part of the process, not the “reasonable doubt” part, they could have a pretty high false positive rate and still be acceptable.&lt;/i&gt;

Perhaps, but if one performs twenty searches based on &quot;probable cause&quot; and only five turn up something, just how &quot;probable&quot; was the &quot;cause&quot;?  While the Constitution doesn&#039;t give an exact mathematical definition for &quot;probable cause&quot;, ordinary English usage would take it to mean &quot;more likely than not&quot;.  That would suggest a probability over 50%, though that doesn&#039;t necessarily mean over a 50% success rate.  Going zero for three would not imply that one didn&#039;t have a better-than-50% probability on each try; even with a 53% chance of success on each try, one would go zero for three about 1/10 of the time.

Even though an officer who goes zero for three might simply be having bad luck despite having probable cause, there&#039;s a limit to how far out that works.  If an officer makes 100 searches, each with a 50% chance of success, he should get at least 38 successful searches 99% of the time.  If he doesn&#039;t manage 38 successes, he very likely didn&#039;t have probable cause.  If he doesn&#039;t manage at least 26, he almost certainly didn&#039;t have probable cause (failing to get at least 26 heads out of 100 flips of a balanced coin would be a one-in-a-million shot).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Since field tests are used during the “probable cause” part of the process, not the “reasonable doubt” part, they could have a pretty high false positive rate and still be acceptable.</i></p>
<p>Perhaps, but if one performs twenty searches based on &#8220;probable cause&#8221; and only five turn up something, just how &#8220;probable&#8221; was the &#8220;cause&#8221;?  While the Constitution doesn&#8217;t give an exact mathematical definition for &#8220;probable cause&#8221;, ordinary English usage would take it to mean &#8220;more likely than not&#8221;.  That would suggest a probability over 50%, though that doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean over a 50% success rate.  Going zero for three would not imply that one didn&#8217;t have a better-than-50% probability on each try; even with a 53% chance of success on each try, one would go zero for three about 1/10 of the time.</p>
<p>Even though an officer who goes zero for three might simply be having bad luck despite having probable cause, there&#8217;s a limit to how far out that works.  If an officer makes 100 searches, each with a 50% chance of success, he should get at least 38 successful searches 99% of the time.  If he doesn&#8217;t manage 38 successes, he very likely didn&#8217;t have probable cause.  If he doesn&#8217;t manage at least 26, he almost certainly didn&#8217;t have probable cause (failing to get at least 26 heads out of 100 flips of a balanced coin would be a one-in-a-million shot).</p>
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		<title>By: roy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149306</link>
		<dc:creator>roy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 19:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149306</guid>
		<description>Since field tests are used during the &quot;probable cause&quot; part of the process, not the &quot;reasonable doubt&quot; part, they could have a pretty high false positive rate and still be acceptable.  Or the false positive rate might be pretty low; you can&#039;t tell from anecdotes, you need numbers.  Unfortunately, any published numbers probably assume lab-perfect conditions, not real cops with real kits and real biases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since field tests are used during the &#8220;probable cause&#8221; part of the process, not the &#8220;reasonable doubt&#8221; part, they could have a pretty high false positive rate and still be acceptable.  Or the false positive rate might be pretty low; you can&#8217;t tell from anecdotes, you need numbers.  Unfortunately, any published numbers probably assume lab-perfect conditions, not real cops with real kits and real biases.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Brand</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149288</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Brand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 18:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149288</guid>
		<description>#13

I&#039;ve seen a field test used on COPS, kinda like from CSI.  The officer took a vial with some chemical in it, added the substance in question (can&#039;t remember which), and waited for the color change.  Kind of like those pH test strips we used back in high school chem.

As far as the smell goes, dried sage smells extremely close to marijuana when it&#039;s burned.  So I guess that could possibly explain the odor reported by the officers. Now...why someone would put sage in chocolate chip cookies is beyond me...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#13</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen a field test used on COPS, kinda like from CSI.  The officer took a vial with some chemical in it, added the substance in question (can&#8217;t remember which), and waited for the color change.  Kind of like those pH test strips we used back in high school chem.</p>
<p>As far as the smell goes, dried sage smells extremely close to marijuana when it&#8217;s burned.  So I guess that could possibly explain the odor reported by the officers. Now&#8230;why someone would put sage in chocolate chip cookies is beyond me&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Edintally</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149274</link>
		<dc:creator>Edintally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149274</guid>
		<description>Simon (this is a bit off topic, goes to cracking skull)

I was watching a British &quot;Cops&quot; show last night.  Officers came up to a belligerent guy on the street and started TALKING to him.  Clock keeps ticking and I&#039;m waiting for the officers to administer the inevitable beat down..........nothing.  They just calmly walk him over to the police car, put him in un-cuffed, and hold him until he calms down.  Crazy! :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon (this is a bit off topic, goes to cracking skull)</p>
<p>I was watching a British &#8220;Cops&#8221; show last night.  Officers came up to a belligerent guy on the street and started TALKING to him.  Clock keeps ticking and I&#8217;m waiting for the officers to administer the inevitable beat down&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.nothing.  They just calmly walk him over to the police car, put him in un-cuffed, and hold him until he calms down.  Crazy! :P</p>
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		<title>By: Simon J.</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149269</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149269</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Also, why is it that these field tests police use turn up so many false positives?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As David (#19) pointed out, cracking skulls and locking up bodies is their job. When you have subjects, rather than customers, there&#039;s very little incentive to err on the side of civility. All of the other details are just side-effects of this lack of negative feedback.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Also, why is it that these field tests police use turn up so many false positives?</p></blockquote>
<p>As David (#19) pointed out, cracking skulls and locking up bodies is their job. When you have subjects, rather than customers, there&#8217;s very little incentive to err on the side of civility. All of the other details are just side-effects of this lack of negative feedback.</p>
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		<title>By: Billy Beck</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149229</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy Beck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149229</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;#4

I can neither confirm nor deny that I have ever been in the presence of a baked good with marijuana baked into it!&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I can completely and authoritatively confirm it in my own case.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;But the answer is: NO&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

That is entirely correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;#4</p>
<p>I can neither confirm nor deny that I have ever been in the presence of a baked good with marijuana baked into it!&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I can completely and authoritatively confirm it in my own case.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;But the answer is: NO&#8221;</i></p>
<p>That is entirely correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149140</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149140</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;chalk (also known as sheet rock)&lt;/em&gt;

Is that some weird drug slang? The powdery material inside drywall board is gypsum, not chalk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>chalk (also known as sheet rock)</em></p>
<p>Is that some weird drug slang? The powdery material inside drywall board is gypsum, not chalk.</p>
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		<title>By: Nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149138</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:06:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149138</guid>
		<description>&quot;They did have a pungent, rancid odor,&quot; Lt. Cain said. &quot;They did have the odor of marijuana. I got within two feet of it; I could smell it.&quot;

That would be your upper lip there, LT.

What a bag of jerks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They did have a pungent, rancid odor,&#8221; Lt. Cain said. &#8220;They did have the odor of marijuana. I got within two feet of it; I could smell it.&#8221;</p>
<p>That would be your upper lip there, LT.</p>
<p>What a bag of jerks.</p>
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		<title>By: Edintally</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149131</link>
		<dc:creator>Edintally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149131</guid>
		<description>Marty-my bad :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marty-my bad :P</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Moore</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149130</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149130</guid>
		<description>#17 - That&#039;s what I thought... if they did smell it would have made that old episode of &lt;i&gt;Barney Miller&lt;/i&gt; less believable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#17 &#8211; That&#8217;s what I thought&#8230; if they did smell it would have made that old episode of <i>Barney Miller</i> less believable.</p>
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		<title>By: Marty</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149129</link>
		<dc:creator>Marty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149129</guid>
		<description>it&#039;s time to load up the super-soaker with &#039;pot soup&#039; and visit these fuckers with the dogs... maybe the mayor&#039;ll get an extra coupla squirts on his car... I&#039;m gonna hose down every city vehicle I see!

stay tuned..

Edintally- you get bonus points for properly using &#039;Bogarting&#039; in a sentence... about made me snort Dr. Pepper outta my nose!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it&#8217;s time to load up the super-soaker with &#8216;pot soup&#8217; and visit these fuckers with the dogs&#8230; maybe the mayor&#8217;ll get an extra coupla squirts on his car&#8230; I&#8217;m gonna hose down every city vehicle I see!</p>
<p>stay tuned..</p>
<p>Edintally- you get bonus points for properly using &#8216;Bogarting&#8217; in a sentence&#8230; about made me snort Dr. Pepper outta my nose!</p>
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		<title>By: Blue</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149128</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149128</guid>
		<description>Oops, I need a preview button! Here&#039;s that link to &lt;a href=&quot;http://nevergetbusted.com/v2/k9test3.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Barry Coopers K9 false alert page.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, I need a preview button! Here&#8217;s that link to <a href="http://nevergetbusted.com/v2/k9test3.php" rel="nofollow">Barry Coopers K9 false alert page.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Blue</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149127</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149127</guid>
		<description>My homeboy, Barry Cooper, former LEO and Pro-Cannabis activist has &lt;a href=&quot;http://nevergetbusted.com/v2/k9test3.php&quot;railed against the use of dogs for narcotic detection.&lt;/a&gt; The dogs can be so easily manipulated by the handlers. The manipulation generates probable cause. A manual search is conducted and drugs appear. Drug dogs are voodoo, tantamount to using a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divining_rod&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;divining rod&lt;/a&gt; to find a well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My homeboy, Barry Cooper, former LEO and Pro-Cannabis activist has &lt;a href=&#8221;http://nevergetbusted.com/v2/k9test3.php&#8221;railed against the use of dogs for narcotic detection. The dogs can be so easily manipulated by the handlers. The manipulation generates probable cause. A manual search is conducted and drugs appear. Drug dogs are voodoo, tantamount to using a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divining_rod" rel="nofollow">divining rod</a> to find a well.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149123</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149123</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Also, why is it that these field tests police use turn up so many false positives?&lt;/i&gt;

My guesses would be that they don&#039;t  clean or calibrate their testing device properly, so they keep getting positives on residue from drugs that have been tested;  that the sensitivity equipment the buy is skewed to &quot;err on the side of caution&quot;, that is, better to have a false positive than a false negative;  The testers themselves are crap (much like many of the the &quot;lie/guilt detection&quot; tech marketed to law enforcement) and police depts. have happily purchased something that&#039;s too good to be true.

Since they goal is making arrests for their own sake, they have little incentive to get things right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Also, why is it that these field tests police use turn up so many false positives?</i></p>
<p>My guesses would be that they don&#8217;t  clean or calibrate their testing device properly, so they keep getting positives on residue from drugs that have been tested;  that the sensitivity equipment the buy is skewed to &#8220;err on the side of caution&#8221;, that is, better to have a false positive than a false negative;  The testers themselves are crap (much like many of the the &#8220;lie/guilt detection&#8221; tech marketed to law enforcement) and police depts. have happily purchased something that&#8217;s too good to be true.</p>
<p>Since they goal is making arrests for their own sake, they have little incentive to get things right.</p>
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		<title>By: Edintally</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149122</link>
		<dc:creator>Edintally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149122</guid>
		<description>#4

I can neither confirm nor deny that I have ever been in the presence of a baked good with marijuana baked into it!

But the answer is:  NO

Now shut up and pass the plate you bogarting bastard!  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#4</p>
<p>I can neither confirm nor deny that I have ever been in the presence of a baked good with marijuana baked into it!</p>
<p>But the answer is:  NO</p>
<p>Now shut up and pass the plate you bogarting bastard!  :)</p>
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		<title>By: Red Green</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149119</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149119</guid>
		<description>Yeah, &quot;catch phrase&quot;, as in ,we are the hunters(cops) and you are the catch (citizen).Now shut up and piss in the cup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, &#8220;catch phrase&#8221;, as in ,we are the hunters(cops) and you are the catch (citizen).Now shut up and piss in the cup.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Pack</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149118</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Pack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149118</guid>
		<description>I suspect that strong smell of pot is like strong smell of alcohol.A catch phrase to make an arrest or conduct a search.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect that strong smell of pot is like strong smell of alcohol.A catch phrase to make an arrest or conduct a search.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank N Stein</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/11/police-dog-field-tests-magically-find-pot-lsd-in-chocolate-chip-cookies/comment-page-1/#comment-149116</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank N Stein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10264#comment-149116</guid>
		<description>What if I got a tip that someone was going to drop off marijuana-infused cookies at the police station? Could I make a citizen&#039;s arrest by throwing some flash-bang grenades through the precinct windows?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if I got a tip that someone was going to drop off marijuana-infused cookies at the police station? Could I make a citizen&#8217;s arrest by throwing some flash-bang grenades through the precinct windows?</p>
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