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	<title>Comments on: Another Isolated Incident</title>
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	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
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		<title>By: nemo</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-150072</link>
		<dc:creator>nemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-150072</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m afraid you still &lt;i&gt;don&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; get it, Mr. Verdon.  First off, you don&#039;t know me well enough to make the suppositions that you have regarding me. If my remarks have incensed you, perhaps you should perform some introspection as to &lt;i&gt;why&lt;/i&gt;, instead of making unfounded accusations.  

My remarks are not originating from a sense of  elitism, snobbery, etc. It&#039;s about realizing that rights are something that require continual protection, lest they become casualties of fads...or pogroms. And that if the &lt;i&gt;citizens&lt;/i&gt; don&#039;t defend those rights from encroachment, then a signal is given for government to further erode those rights, until nothing is left. I see that you do not dispute that. 

And if the majority of citizens not only fail to defend those rights, but acquiesce in their further erosion, then who is to blame? The object of the official pogrom (i.e.  &#039;druggies&#039;)...or the citizens, themselves?

The entire DrugWar from its&#039; inception, can be proven to be a product of &#039;elitism&#039;, &#039;snobbery&#039; etc. From the get-go it has followed &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Professor Whitebread&#039;s &#039;Iron Law of Prohibition&#039;&lt;/a&gt;, in which a substance prohibition is created by an identifiable &quot;Us&quot; to attack and identifiable &quot;Them&quot;. 

And if by doing so, basic freedoms are savaged and rights endangered? I ask again: who is more at fault? The target of the laws, or the supposed &#039;upstanding citizens&#039; who&#039;ve allowed those laws to stand, when they cause that very damage to basic freedoms our great-grandparents took for granted as being inviolable?

In the end, the one person responsible for maintaining those freedoms is none other than the one who stares back at you from the bathroom mirror each morning. Abrogate that responsibility, and no one can stand in for you. 

But in abrogating that responsibility, then you also place the rights of others in danger. If &#039;silence = assent&#039;, then the majority of Americans have assented to the erosion of their rights by not speaking out against this insanity...but they are not only assenting to just the erosion of &lt;i&gt;their&lt;/i&gt; rights, &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;but those of their neighbors, as well.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; And it is &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; which I object to most strenuously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m afraid you still <i>don&#8217;t</i> get it, Mr. Verdon.  First off, you don&#8217;t know me well enough to make the suppositions that you have regarding me. If my remarks have incensed you, perhaps you should perform some introspection as to <i>why</i>, instead of making unfounded accusations.  </p>
<p>My remarks are not originating from a sense of  elitism, snobbery, etc. It&#8217;s about realizing that rights are something that require continual protection, lest they become casualties of fads&#8230;or pogroms. And that if the <i>citizens</i> don&#8217;t defend those rights from encroachment, then a signal is given for government to further erode those rights, until nothing is left. I see that you do not dispute that. </p>
<p>And if the majority of citizens not only fail to defend those rights, but acquiesce in their further erosion, then who is to blame? The object of the official pogrom (i.e.  &#8216;druggies&#8217;)&#8230;or the citizens, themselves?</p>
<p>The entire DrugWar from its&#8217; inception, can be proven to be a product of &#8216;elitism&#8217;, &#8217;snobbery&#8217; etc. From the get-go it has followed <a href="http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm" rel="nofollow">Professor Whitebread&#8217;s &#8216;Iron Law of Prohibition&#8217;</a>, in which a substance prohibition is created by an identifiable &#8220;Us&#8221; to attack and identifiable &#8220;Them&#8221;. </p>
<p>And if by doing so, basic freedoms are savaged and rights endangered? I ask again: who is more at fault? The target of the laws, or the supposed &#8216;upstanding citizens&#8217; who&#8217;ve allowed those laws to stand, when they cause that very damage to basic freedoms our great-grandparents took for granted as being inviolable?</p>
<p>In the end, the one person responsible for maintaining those freedoms is none other than the one who stares back at you from the bathroom mirror each morning. Abrogate that responsibility, and no one can stand in for you. </p>
<p>But in abrogating that responsibility, then you also place the rights of others in danger. If &#8217;silence = assent&#8217;, then the majority of Americans have assented to the erosion of their rights by not speaking out against this insanity&#8230;but they are not only assenting to just the erosion of <i>their</i> rights, <i><b>but those of their neighbors, as well.</b></i> And it is <i>that</i> which I object to most strenuously.</p>
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		<title>By: RedneckInNY</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-149558</link>
		<dc:creator>RedneckInNY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-149558</guid>
		<description>P.T. Barnum once said, &quot;There&#039;s a sucker born every minute.&quot;  In this case, it went all the way up to the judge and the ringmaster was the &quot;confidential informant.&quot;  We all know &quot;confidential informant&quot; only means one thing: the guy that got caught dealing drugs who wants the revolving door of justice to spin for him.  He gets a free ride, some innocent victim gets his/her door busted down, flash-banged, roughed up and raked over the coals, because somebody along the way didn&#039;t do his/her homework.  

Really, what does it take for a cop to dress up like a door-to-door salesman, walk up to the door (with the vice squad in place in case the tip was true), ring the doorbell and wait for someone to answer the door?  With that, he could surveille the domicile and assess the threat level, find out if the &quot;man-of-the-house&quot; was home and take it from there?  They should find this &quot;confidential informant,&quot; take away his plea deal for the bad tip and throw his ass in jail, like they should have done in the first place.  And make him pay for the woman&#039;s misery.

The War on Drugs is a joke that&#039;s costing us billions of dollars every year.  If they just legalized it, they could tax it.  It&#039;s a win-win situation for the users and the government.  The users will find a way to get it anyway, regardless of whether or not it&#039;s legal.  Legalizing drugs would also reduce, if not outright eliminate, the wars over turf proliferated by gangs on which to sell their drugs.  Sometimes, the solution is so simple that people can&#039;t even see it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.T. Barnum once said, &#8220;There&#8217;s a sucker born every minute.&#8221;  In this case, it went all the way up to the judge and the ringmaster was the &#8220;confidential informant.&#8221;  We all know &#8220;confidential informant&#8221; only means one thing: the guy that got caught dealing drugs who wants the revolving door of justice to spin for him.  He gets a free ride, some innocent victim gets his/her door busted down, flash-banged, roughed up and raked over the coals, because somebody along the way didn&#8217;t do his/her homework.  </p>
<p>Really, what does it take for a cop to dress up like a door-to-door salesman, walk up to the door (with the vice squad in place in case the tip was true), ring the doorbell and wait for someone to answer the door?  With that, he could surveille the domicile and assess the threat level, find out if the &#8220;man-of-the-house&#8221; was home and take it from there?  They should find this &#8220;confidential informant,&#8221; take away his plea deal for the bad tip and throw his ass in jail, like they should have done in the first place.  And make him pay for the woman&#8217;s misery.</p>
<p>The War on Drugs is a joke that&#8217;s costing us billions of dollars every year.  If they just legalized it, they could tax it.  It&#8217;s a win-win situation for the users and the government.  The users will find a way to get it anyway, regardless of whether or not it&#8217;s legal.  Legalizing drugs would also reduce, if not outright eliminate, the wars over turf proliferated by gangs on which to sell their drugs.  Sometimes, the solution is so simple that people can&#8217;t even see it.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-149441</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-149441</guid>
		<description>Oh, and you were quite clear nemo.  I understood your meaning.  Your view is that these people are not &quot;pure&quot; or are &quot;less than you&quot; because they were not aware of the problem.  You are an elitist and a snob.  I reject your view, utterly.  I reject because it is counter productive.  So spare me any more clarifying posts.  You&#039;ve made your unpleasant position quite clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and you were quite clear nemo.  I understood your meaning.  Your view is that these people are not &#8220;pure&#8221; or are &#8220;less than you&#8221; because they were not aware of the problem.  You are an elitist and a snob.  I reject your view, utterly.  I reject because it is counter productive.  So spare me any more clarifying posts.  You&#8217;ve made your unpleasant position quite clear.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-149439</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-149439</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ll never ever win then nemo, for two reasons.

1.  You&#039;ll piss off those who probably would be on your side.  Usually not a winning strategy.

2.  You aren&#039;t smart enough to see this isn&#039;t an either/or situation.

I&#039;ll explain that last one to you.  It isn&#039;t that you are either just a, 

1.  an aware ‘dick’,
2.  a somnolent sheep, grazing placidly until The State shows up with a SWAT van. 

You can be aware and not be a dick. Then when that somnomlent sheep wakes up, it will realize it isn&#039;t alone and can help in changing things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ll never ever win then nemo, for two reasons.</p>
<p>1.  You&#8217;ll piss off those who probably would be on your side.  Usually not a winning strategy.</p>
<p>2.  You aren&#8217;t smart enough to see this isn&#8217;t an either/or situation.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll explain that last one to you.  It isn&#8217;t that you are either just a, </p>
<p>1.  an aware ‘dick’,<br />
2.  a somnolent sheep, grazing placidly until The State shows up with a SWAT van. </p>
<p>You can be aware and not be a dick. Then when that somnomlent sheep wakes up, it will realize it isn&#8217;t alone and can help in changing things.</p>
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		<title>By: nemo</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-148745</link>
		<dc:creator>nemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 00:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-148745</guid>
		<description>Evidently, I wasn&#039;t clear enough. My fault; I&#039;ll try again.

Anyone aware enough to have a sense of history knows that government tends to gather power to itself, at the expense of the people. The Founders made that quite clear. iThey knew that rights had to be guarded jealously against continual, amoeba-like encroachment by government. 

That&#039;s why the Bill of Rights might as well have had the international &quot;NO&quot; sign attached to it; in its&#039; entirety, the point is made that NO, the government may not do this, and NO the government may not do that. Allow it to encroach upon one right, and all are endangered. As we have seen it do, particularly since the first two decades of the last century.

Because of that encroachment, ostensibly for their own good, the people have become inured to that encroachment, and proof of that is seen in the DrugWar. Most people couldn&#039;t give a rat&#039;s @$$ should their neighbor be the recipient of one of The State&#039;s idea of a &#039;Welcome Wagon&#039; visitation, as this woman was. After all, it&#039;s only the &#039;bad people&#039; who are supposed to suffer when that happens, right? Not the law-abidin&#039;, church-goin&#039;, Bible-collectin&#039; &#039;good people&#039;...so they must have &#039;deserved it&#039;. 

Or so many of these (either tacit or vocal) supporters of the DrugWar think...until they are on the short, sharp and sh*tty end of the stick held by their putative &#039;servants&#039;. 

And when those servants show no remorse for their actions? When they are contemptuous of the very idea that they &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; show remorse for terrorizing one of the &#039;good&#039; people? Who is to blame, then? The &#039;druggie&#039;? Or the &#039;upstanding citizens&#039; who&#039;ve allowed their rights - and everyone else&#039;s! - to be ground up beneath the Juggernaut they supported?

I point the finger where nobody wants to look, for the fact remains that the DrugWar, and its&#039; bastard son, the War on Terror, which are stripping us of our rights, are being tacitly supported by no small number of &lt;i&gt;&#039;good Americans&#039;&lt;/i&gt;. And all too often, those who try to sound the alarm are castigated as &#039;dicks&#039;. 

Well, to paraphrase Aristotle, I&#039;d rather be an aware &#039;dick&#039; than a somnolent sheep, grazing placidly until The State shows up with a SWAT van. Pity there aren&#039;t enough of us left...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Evidently, I wasn&#8217;t clear enough. My fault; I&#8217;ll try again.</p>
<p>Anyone aware enough to have a sense of history knows that government tends to gather power to itself, at the expense of the people. The Founders made that quite clear. iThey knew that rights had to be guarded jealously against continual, amoeba-like encroachment by government. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s why the Bill of Rights might as well have had the international &#8220;NO&#8221; sign attached to it; in its&#8217; entirety, the point is made that NO, the government may not do this, and NO the government may not do that. Allow it to encroach upon one right, and all are endangered. As we have seen it do, particularly since the first two decades of the last century.</p>
<p>Because of that encroachment, ostensibly for their own good, the people have become inured to that encroachment, and proof of that is seen in the DrugWar. Most people couldn&#8217;t give a rat&#8217;s @$$ should their neighbor be the recipient of one of The State&#8217;s idea of a &#8216;Welcome Wagon&#8217; visitation, as this woman was. After all, it&#8217;s only the &#8216;bad people&#8217; who are supposed to suffer when that happens, right? Not the law-abidin&#8217;, church-goin&#8217;, Bible-collectin&#8217; &#8216;good people&#8217;&#8230;so they must have &#8216;deserved it&#8217;. </p>
<p>Or so many of these (either tacit or vocal) supporters of the DrugWar think&#8230;until they are on the short, sharp and sh*tty end of the stick held by their putative &#8217;servants&#8217;. </p>
<p>And when those servants show no remorse for their actions? When they are contemptuous of the very idea that they <i>should</i> show remorse for terrorizing one of the &#8216;good&#8217; people? Who is to blame, then? The &#8216;druggie&#8217;? Or the &#8216;upstanding citizens&#8217; who&#8217;ve allowed their rights &#8211; and everyone else&#8217;s! &#8211; to be ground up beneath the Juggernaut they supported?</p>
<p>I point the finger where nobody wants to look, for the fact remains that the DrugWar, and its&#8217; bastard son, the War on Terror, which are stripping us of our rights, are being tacitly supported by no small number of <i>&#8216;good Americans&#8217;</i>. And all too often, those who try to sound the alarm are castigated as &#8216;dicks&#8217;. </p>
<p>Well, to paraphrase Aristotle, I&#8217;d rather be an aware &#8216;dick&#8217; than a somnolent sheep, grazing placidly until The State shows up with a SWAT van. Pity there aren&#8217;t enough of us left&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-148608</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-148608</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The State’s seal of approval, then just how much of a ‘victim’ is she when she finds herself ground under Juggernaut’s treads?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d say just as much as if you were.  The fact that she was out agitating against this doesn&#039;t mean she should be ground up by the juggernaut anymore than you should be.  Recall our rights are considered to be inalienable, not conveyed only if you happen to have the right ideas and agitate in support of those ideas.

And I&#039;d also caution you about showing your contempt for people such as this.  Stepping up and offering support might turn such people into valuable allies.  Turning your back after scoffing at them is likely to have exactly the opposite effect.

In short, don&#039;t be a dick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The State’s seal of approval, then just how much of a ‘victim’ is she when she finds herself ground under Juggernaut’s treads?</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;d say just as much as if you were.  The fact that she was out agitating against this doesn&#8217;t mean she should be ground up by the juggernaut anymore than you should be.  Recall our rights are considered to be inalienable, not conveyed only if you happen to have the right ideas and agitate in support of those ideas.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;d also caution you about showing your contempt for people such as this.  Stepping up and offering support might turn such people into valuable allies.  Turning your back after scoffing at them is likely to have exactly the opposite effect.</p>
<p>In short, don&#8217;t be a dick.</p>
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		<title>By: Zeb</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-148596</link>
		<dc:creator>Zeb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-148596</guid>
		<description>Even if the warrant is entirely correct and everything they are looking for is found at the address, why are the cops justified in totally trashing anyone&#039;s property?  I don&#039;t know how often it really happens, maybe its just TV, but it seems like they take a search warrant as an excuse to trash someone&#039;s house.  Couldn&#039;t they perform a more effective search by carefully and deliberately looking through everything rather than tearing everything apart and making a big mess?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if the warrant is entirely correct and everything they are looking for is found at the address, why are the cops justified in totally trashing anyone&#8217;s property?  I don&#8217;t know how often it really happens, maybe its just TV, but it seems like they take a search warrant as an excuse to trash someone&#8217;s house.  Couldn&#8217;t they perform a more effective search by carefully and deliberately looking through everything rather than tearing everything apart and making a big mess?</p>
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		<title>By: nemo</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-148339</link>
		<dc:creator>nemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-148339</guid>
		<description>While everyone is busy (rightfully) castigating the police, nobody&#039;s asking a question that ought to be asked: did this woman ever support the War on Drugs?

Support doesn&#039;t have to be active; acquiescing to the steady erosion of rights that silent acceptance of the DrugWar produces is the same as being a foaming, wild-eyed rah-rah cheerleader for it. &lt;i&gt;Degree&lt;/i&gt; doesn&#039;t matter in this case, &lt;i&gt;results&lt;/i&gt; do. If she never spoke out against it, if she never gave any thought as to why it was inherently wrong in punishing people for choosing to put something in their bodies without The State&#039;s seal of approval, then just how much of a &#039;victim&#039; is she when she finds herself ground under Juggernaut&#039;s treads?

I am reminded of what Goethe said about people getting the governments that they deserve. I am also reminded of something I read long ago, about the governors inevitably become contemptuous of the governed - for having let themselves be led about by those no better than themselves. 

The people of this country have forgotten that they were supposed to be masters of The State, not the other way around. And this is what happens when that lesson is forgotten...and the governors become dismissive of the governed...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While everyone is busy (rightfully) castigating the police, nobody&#8217;s asking a question that ought to be asked: did this woman ever support the War on Drugs?</p>
<p>Support doesn&#8217;t have to be active; acquiescing to the steady erosion of rights that silent acceptance of the DrugWar produces is the same as being a foaming, wild-eyed rah-rah cheerleader for it. <i>Degree</i> doesn&#8217;t matter in this case, <i>results</i> do. If she never spoke out against it, if she never gave any thought as to why it was inherently wrong in punishing people for choosing to put something in their bodies without The State&#8217;s seal of approval, then just how much of a &#8216;victim&#8217; is she when she finds herself ground under Juggernaut&#8217;s treads?</p>
<p>I am reminded of what Goethe said about people getting the governments that they deserve. I am also reminded of something I read long ago, about the governors inevitably become contemptuous of the governed &#8211; for having let themselves be led about by those no better than themselves. </p>
<p>The people of this country have forgotten that they were supposed to be masters of The State, not the other way around. And this is what happens when that lesson is forgotten&#8230;and the governors become dismissive of the governed&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: supercat</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-148107</link>
		<dc:creator>supercat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:49:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-148107</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I would like to add, that for all the punishments people have thought up for cops who eff up like this, we should recognize that even in an agitator-perfect world, good cops will still make mistakes along these lines (in terms of the result).&lt;/i&gt;

No-knock raids are extremely dangerous to everyone involved.  They are only reasonable in cases where no practical safer alternative exists, and even then only when performed by real SWAT teams--not by pseudo-SWAT wannabes.

I doubt that even 1% of the raids which are designed to prevent the target from being able to determine that their raiders are police are even remotely justifiable.  If a cop deliberately acts in such a fashion that a person could reasonably believe that he is a (1) not a cop and (2) poses an immediate threat of bodily harm, that cop is entirely to blame if he is mistaken for a criminal and forfeits all claim of self-defense against such a mistake.  Of course, the government routinely rigs cases involving defense against cops, probably because they don&#039;t want to lose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I would like to add, that for all the punishments people have thought up for cops who eff up like this, we should recognize that even in an agitator-perfect world, good cops will still make mistakes along these lines (in terms of the result).</i></p>
<p>No-knock raids are extremely dangerous to everyone involved.  They are only reasonable in cases where no practical safer alternative exists, and even then only when performed by real SWAT teams&#8211;not by pseudo-SWAT wannabes.</p>
<p>I doubt that even 1% of the raids which are designed to prevent the target from being able to determine that their raiders are police are even remotely justifiable.  If a cop deliberately acts in such a fashion that a person could reasonably believe that he is a (1) not a cop and (2) poses an immediate threat of bodily harm, that cop is entirely to blame if he is mistaken for a criminal and forfeits all claim of self-defense against such a mistake.  Of course, the government routinely rigs cases involving defense against cops, probably because they don&#8217;t want to lose.</p>
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		<title>By: HtownGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147936</link>
		<dc:creator>HtownGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147936</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Oh, this is an easy one. Your average gang of thugs doesn’t enjoy the protection of the DAs office.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, our thugs in blue aren&#039;t average, they&#039;re &#039;Special&#039;.  They even tell us so, &quot;&lt;b&gt;Special&lt;/b&gt; Weapons and Tactics,&quot; L.A.&#039;s &lt;b&gt;Special&lt;/b&gt; Investigative Service,&quot; etc.

The folks who foot the bill?  Not special.  Now shut up and pay your taxes and if they throw granades in your house you probably did something to deserve it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Oh, this is an easy one. Your average gang of thugs doesn’t enjoy the protection of the DAs office.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, our thugs in blue aren&#8217;t average, they&#8217;re &#8216;Special&#8217;.  They even tell us so, &#8220;<b>Special</b> Weapons and Tactics,&#8221; L.A.&#8217;s <b>Special</b> Investigative Service,&#8221; etc.</p>
<p>The folks who foot the bill?  Not special.  Now shut up and pay your taxes and if they throw granades in your house you probably did something to deserve it.</p>
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		<title>By: perlhaqr</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147898</link>
		<dc:creator>perlhaqr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147898</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What’s the difference between cops like this and a heavily armed gang of thugs that goes around busting people’s property, terrorizing people, and sometimes injuring or killing them?

Yeah, I can’t think of one either.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, this is an easy one.  Your average gang of thugs doesn&#039;t enjoy the protection of the DAs office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What’s the difference between cops like this and a heavily armed gang of thugs that goes around busting people’s property, terrorizing people, and sometimes injuring or killing them?</p>
<p>Yeah, I can’t think of one either.</i></p>
<p>Oh, this is an easy one.  Your average gang of thugs doesn&#8217;t enjoy the protection of the DAs office.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick T</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147889</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:07:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147889</guid>
		<description>I would like to add, that for all the punishments people have thought up for cops who eff up like this, we should recognize that even in an agitator-perfect world, good cops will still make mistakes along these lines (in terms of the result).  

Of course I&#039;m not saying these particulr cops are justified.  But rather the most important thing, in a way, is to examine WHY this mistake occurred and see what shortcuts were used or where things could be improved.  Obviously the police here don&#039;t seem to want to get into any sort of self-evaluation and they are stonewalling to prevent any outside evals which is the biggest problem of all.  But there is, conceptually, the possibility of a thoroughly investigated, and duelly executed search warrant that turns up nothing, and it&#039;s just an honest mistkae or one piece of wrong information that could not be double-checked.  We shouldn&#039;t be so quick to punish the cops who crossed every T, but rather the lazy, stupid cops who failed to do even a reasonable amount of investigating (not unlike a negligence standard).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to add, that for all the punishments people have thought up for cops who eff up like this, we should recognize that even in an agitator-perfect world, good cops will still make mistakes along these lines (in terms of the result).  </p>
<p>Of course I&#8217;m not saying these particulr cops are justified.  But rather the most important thing, in a way, is to examine WHY this mistake occurred and see what shortcuts were used or where things could be improved.  Obviously the police here don&#8217;t seem to want to get into any sort of self-evaluation and they are stonewalling to prevent any outside evals which is the biggest problem of all.  But there is, conceptually, the possibility of a thoroughly investigated, and duelly executed search warrant that turns up nothing, and it&#8217;s just an honest mistkae or one piece of wrong information that could not be double-checked.  We shouldn&#8217;t be so quick to punish the cops who crossed every T, but rather the lazy, stupid cops who failed to do even a reasonable amount of investigating (not unlike a negligence standard).</p>
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		<title>By: Billy Beck</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147884</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy Beck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147884</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s obvious to me, Radley: you don&#039;t understand &quot;due process&quot;.

This thing was duly processed.  Just ask &#039;em.

Move along, citizen.  Show&#039;s over, nothin&#039; to see here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s obvious to me, Radley: you don&#8217;t understand &#8220;due process&#8221;.</p>
<p>This thing was duly processed.  Just ask &#8216;em.</p>
<p>Move along, citizen.  Show&#8217;s over, nothin&#8217; to see here.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Green</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147875</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147875</guid>
		<description>If this was 1856, and a snitch said,&quot;I know where a bunch of slaves are hiding&quot;,or it was 1939, and a snitch said,&quot;I know where a family of jews are hiding&quot;,what would be the difference from what we have now? Probable cause now means &quot;I think I have a hunch&quot;.Tyranny is tyranny ,and what ever happened to the 4th ammendment? The only thing that will stop the monster is &quot;kill the monster&quot;. And yeah, I&#039;m saying that these swathugs are facist  nazi&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If this was 1856, and a snitch said,&#8221;I know where a bunch of slaves are hiding&#8221;,or it was 1939, and a snitch said,&#8221;I know where a family of jews are hiding&#8221;,what would be the difference from what we have now? Probable cause now means &#8220;I think I have a hunch&#8221;.Tyranny is tyranny ,and what ever happened to the 4th ammendment? The only thing that will stop the monster is &#8220;kill the monster&#8221;. And yeah, I&#8217;m saying that these swathugs are facist  nazi&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick T</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147855</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147855</guid>
		<description>I think the whole &quot;the last thing we want to do is [punish] an innocent person&quot; needs to be confronted head on.  You hear this all the time from prosecutors and &quot;law and order&quot; morons who want to assure you that victims like the one in this case are abberations.  

But just because you don&#039;t want to intentionally and specifically see an innocent person put in jail (congrats! you&#039;re not a raging fascist!) doesn&#039;t mean you&#039;re taking the appropriate steps to ensure that they don&#039;t OR that you are, ya know, following the law.  It&#039;s a bit like saying &quot;The last thing i wanted to do was shoot my buddy in the stomach - he&#039;s my friend- but I just spun around in circles with my eyes closed firing my uzi, so I don&#039;t see why that&#039;s a crime.&quot; 

Besides as I think we all know, many wrong-door victims or worngfully convicted victims became such because somone &quot;just knew&quot; they were guilty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the whole &#8220;the last thing we want to do is [punish] an innocent person&#8221; needs to be confronted head on.  You hear this all the time from prosecutors and &#8220;law and order&#8221; morons who want to assure you that victims like the one in this case are abberations.  </p>
<p>But just because you don&#8217;t want to intentionally and specifically see an innocent person put in jail (congrats! you&#8217;re not a raging fascist!) doesn&#8217;t mean you&#8217;re taking the appropriate steps to ensure that they don&#8217;t OR that you are, ya know, following the law.  It&#8217;s a bit like saying &#8220;The last thing i wanted to do was shoot my buddy in the stomach &#8211; he&#8217;s my friend- but I just spun around in circles with my eyes closed firing my uzi, so I don&#8217;t see why that&#8217;s a crime.&#8221; </p>
<p>Besides as I think we all know, many wrong-door victims or worngfully convicted victims became such because somone &#8220;just knew&#8221; they were guilty.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147853</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147853</guid>
		<description>#23, exactly.  If Joe Taxpayer foots the bill, then it changes nothing other than pissing us Citizen Nothings off even more.  If John Police Officers (note the plural, there are many involved in checking the facts) and Jane Judge (for the warrant, for not asking enough questions) were held accountable, then they would think about doing their job better because it financially hurts THEM, not Joe Taxpayer.

Of course there has to be limits, because sometimes mistakes will be made no matter how much double checking everyone does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#23, exactly.  If Joe Taxpayer foots the bill, then it changes nothing other than pissing us Citizen Nothings off even more.  If John Police Officers (note the plural, there are many involved in checking the facts) and Jane Judge (for the warrant, for not asking enough questions) were held accountable, then they would think about doing their job better because it financially hurts THEM, not Joe Taxpayer.</p>
<p>Of course there has to be limits, because sometimes mistakes will be made no matter how much double checking everyone does.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147842</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147842</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Cops want respect because they have a gun, and power over you, and they aren’t afraid to use it…the exact same way criminals get respect.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And

&lt;blockquote&gt;That comes close to saying we can’t make bad cops pay for their screw-ups because if we did, they would “show us who’s boss”. Seems like a form of extortion.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As I&#039;ve said several times before:

cops &#8801; criminals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Cops want respect because they have a gun, and power over you, and they aren’t afraid to use it…the exact same way criminals get respect.</p></blockquote>
<p>And</p>
<blockquote><p>That comes close to saying we can’t make bad cops pay for their screw-ups because if we did, they would “show us who’s boss”. Seems like a form of extortion.</p></blockquote>
<p>As I&#8217;ve said several times before:</p>
<p>cops &equiv; criminals.</p>
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		<title>By: Vlad Drac</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147834</link>
		<dc:creator>Vlad Drac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147834</guid>
		<description>The individual officers need to pay compensation out of their own pockets. Otherwise, &quot;accountability&quot; just means you and I are footing the bill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The individual officers need to pay compensation out of their own pockets. Otherwise, &#8220;accountability&#8221; just means you and I are footing the bill.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147822</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147822</guid>
		<description>With cops like that, and the prosecutors that enable them, who needs criminals.  Seriously, just disband the courts, the police department and we&#039;ll take our chances with the thugs, rapists and murderers.  We at least know exactly where we stand with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With cops like that, and the prosecutors that enable them, who needs criminals.  Seriously, just disband the courts, the police department and we&#8217;ll take our chances with the thugs, rapists and murderers.  We at least know exactly where we stand with them.</p>
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		<title>By: Observant Bystander</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/07/09/another-isolated-incident-20/comment-page-1/#comment-147795</link>
		<dc:creator>Observant Bystander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/?p=10259#comment-147795</guid>
		<description># Anya: &quot;What was the level of threat that you assessed prior to coming into the home?&quot;

# Sgt. Dean: &quot;That there were weapons in the house, or that the drugs were stored in that manor.&quot;

The meaning here is not totally clear (manor or manner?), but does he really mean &quot;or&quot; -- that drugs alone, even with no weapons, justify a military style raid? 

He more clearly says that when they serve a warrant on people who are gun owners, they can expect grenades being thrown into their homes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p># Anya: &#8220;What was the level of threat that you assessed prior to coming into the home?&#8221;</p>
<p># Sgt. Dean: &#8220;That there were weapons in the house, or that the drugs were stored in that manor.&#8221;</p>
<p>The meaning here is not totally clear (manor or manner?), but does he really mean &#8220;or&#8221; &#8212; that drugs alone, even with no weapons, justify a military style raid? </p>
<p>He more clearly says that when they serve a warrant on people who are gun owners, they can expect grenades being thrown into their homes.</p>
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