“Terrorism” by definition is an effort to use a few attacks to induce unwarranted and irrational fear across an entire population. The aim is get the terrorist’s target to alter its policies, waste its resources, and change its way of life in an irrational response to an enemy without the resources for a more traditional war.

This is a terrible definition of terrorism. Terrorism is just another step down the guerrilla continuum. When you do not have enough support from the people around you to carry out a guerrilla campaign, you launch terrorism attacks that aim to provoke collective punishment, leading to more public support for your cause, which enables you to move up from terrorist to guerrilla.

We’ve done a damned good job of avoiding collective punishment, despite the efforts by many anti-(this)war activists to push the myth that we are engaging in it.

Except McCain very definitely voted against it. There are plenty of issues where he’s as wrong as can be, and some where he manages to be even more against freedom than the socialists now infesting the Democratic party, but not torture.

If I HAD to define myself in a political sense, Secular Humanism seems to fit the best. Even if we can’t agree on all things, we can agree on at least one thing. One thing is a start.

Not a pointed comment, no controversy. Just an observation.

If you are standing up, I’ll stand up. If we get a few more people we might actually have a movement.

/que Alice’s Restaurant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_7C0QGkiVo

;)

I understand what you are saying. And I am ashamed. However, I will stick to my guns when I say it is not how I am. It truly isn’t. I have asked myself many times what I would do if I found myself in the same situations that those in charge of our government are. After reflection, I find I would do the exact opposite of what they have a good portion of the time. And specifically to the point here, torturing people is not something I would ever consider. And truly civilized people wouldn’t, either. It’s about as barbaric as it gets and while I do have my faults, I am capable of identifying what those are in a brutally honest way.

I can tell you with all certainty that if I was faced with a situation where one of the options was torturing a fellow human being, I would rather die than lower myself to degrading another person like that. And myself in the process.

Now, I might make fun of their clothes or something . . .

Cheers

I am voting for this one.

Tokin42, Jim Collins,
From the article, it looks to me like, the military was over ruled by bureaucrats.

Gelles, Kleinman, and other interrogation experts tried to raise alarms internally about the dangers and ineffectiveness of the SERE-style coercive techniques, but they were ignored and threatened. Civilian decision makers inside the Bush-Cheney administration viewed such criticisms as an attack on its claims of presidential power.

#11 One of the hardest things to do is find fault with who you are fundamentally. It IS how you are, it’s how I am, it’s especially how the Federal Government is. Every time something happens that we don’t like, whether its a perceived national emergency or just a simple attempt at keeping the status quo alive, we suddenly have no need for the rule of law. Instead of wrapping ourselves within the power and dignity of the Constitution, we simply fold it up, put it in a desk drawer, and ignore it. Instead of feigned indignation, you should feel shame. I do. We all should.

#24 Are we starting to rank torture techniques now? Techniques used which make a person think they are going to die are more acceptable than techniques merely causing pain, however horrific they may be?

#26 It’s not a “better” argument. It’s THE argument against all torture.

We may never achieve what the founding fathers set out. But we should expend every energy in trying. The “war”, the fear, the torture, the patriot act…all of these things move us away from the dream. They weaken us not only in the eyes of other countries and peoples. They weaken us in our own eyes. Open yours.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808?currentPage=1

It’s a better argument, but I still disagree with the conclusion that the US should NEVER waterboard.

Crawford may back me up on this, but I have dozens of books and manuals dealing with army interrogation techniques that go back almost 30 years. I can assure you the training these folks go through is very thorough and continually updated. One of the few bright spots in the Iraq war has been how quickly the military has adapted to current terrorist tactics. The efficiency at incorporating current lessons learned into actual training would amaze anyone who served in the military just a few decades ago. My best friend is an infantry drill sergeant, reservist, who has more than 30 years total experience and active for more than 20. From 2003 to early 2007 he spent on active duty training troops. He spent a year at home and was then re-activated. He spent almost 4 straight months receiving newer training they’ve added in just the last year alone.

“You are stupid and wrong but I can’t tell you why”

Perhaps we should aggressively interrogate him for an explanation.