I’d like someone to ask this question:

Suppose law-abiding Mr. Smith is awakened by the sound of a couple people smashing into his door. One of the individuals yells out “POLICE”, but there isn’t enough light to see the individual clearly. Are the people breaking in more likely to be (1) police officers legitimately serving a no-knock warrant that was issued for Mr. Smith’s address on the basis of an affiant’s personal knowledge, or (2) robbers who figure they’re more likely to get the jump on their victim if they yell “police”?

If the answer is (2), then Mr. Smith should not be faulted if on some particular instance the invaders happen to be cops. And if the answer is (1), that would imply that one has more to fear from cops than criminals. While that may indeed be true, I wouldn’t think the government would want to admit it.

Biochemistry has nothing to do with it. The purpose of the raids is to acclimate people to living in a totalitarian state.

According to Cooley on the Constitution, warrants should be served during daylight hours with no crowd around. Thomas M Cooley is one of the recognized experts by the US SC on the US Constitution.

This night time, knock or no-knock bullshit is a bunch of pansy-assed pricks (albeit with 2 mm dicks) pretending to be storm-troopers against the people because they haven’t the guts or the nads to do it in a “real” hot zone.

Cops ain’t nobody’s friend any more. I paint with a broad brush. I grew up with cops. I’ve spent most of my life around cops. And I wouldn’t trust a cop today to watch my lunch.

If Det. Shivers was reaching up through a hole in the bottom of the door than he was probably exposing his chest to Frederick’s shot via the hole in his armor where his arm goes through, i.e. his armpit. Perhaps the second shot hit Det. Shivers in the arm.

I have done penetration testing with many handgun cartridges, although admittedly not the .380 ACP, and cannot see the round having enough oomph to make it through an exterior door made of either wood or metal and then having the power to reach vitals. No way. My bet would be the round struck the exposed chest through the arm hole in the ballistic armor.

I hope you get the chance to ask what the correct course of action for people being raided to take is. I’d be curious to the reply would be, and how it fits with living a free society. I wonder how people would respond to a police official telling them the the best thing they can do if they think they’re home is being burglarized is to lie face down on the living room floor with their hands visible; That their sole duty as citizens in dealing with Police is to make oneself easily arrested. And that’s leaving aside the idea that even a person in 100 percent compliance will likely still get the knee in the back, rifle at the temple routine. I wonder if they’re trained to make people resist a little, so they at least have the “resisting arrest” charge?

Cuff your own hands behind your back, lay down face first on the floor, and hope it really is the cops.

And all of this crap, just to stop people from altering their own biochemistry.

You can’t FLUSH a grow operation, guys.

This is asking for trouble, and as bad as I feel for Shivers’ family, and as much respect as I have for GOOD cops, I’m glad it was one of the guys who started the fight that got killed instead of the guy they were attacking.

In a sane world, Det. Roberts’ testimony alone would call for a very hard look at these raids and draw enormous shame on law enforcement in this country, if this “pretend-to-knock-and-announce” policy is widespread.

I don’t know how to show a quote from people, what is the trick other than copy/paste?

A .380 caliber bullet’s typical profile (velocity, penetrating power) is one of penetrate and STOP, not penetrate and CONTINUE. My understanding is that .357 Magnum was common, but these typically have a higher penetration rate, which is why law enforcement asked Smith & Wesson (S&W) to come up with something that stops after penetrating, and thus the .38 was born. This is why most revolvers and pistols that take .38 can also shoot .357, same casing etc. so they both fit in the same firearm. I’ve shot both from a revolver, and the .357 definitely is louder, produces more recoil, and goes more after penetration.

Of course there are special types of each you can buy e.g. .38+P (extra power), but the typical cartridge (cartridge=case+bullet) behaves as I describe.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/Articles.asp?a=Gun-Gear/Ammo-Anatomy-101&Meida_id=19