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Why They Hate Us
Thursday, April 24th, 2008Hint: It’s not because of “our freedom.”
61 Responses to “Why They Hate Us”
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What bloody nonsense.
That’s like asking the victims of Soviet propaganda their attitudes toward America c. 1950. C’mon, Radley: tell me that you really think that the people in those countries responding to questions like that actually know what they’re talking about.
Are you serious?
Almost everybody hates freedom. Why? Because freedom takes hard work. That’s why I rarely accuse the government of “taking” our rights. People willingly give them up all the time.
Billy –
I’d say it’s a hell of a lot more likely that the Muslim world hates us because they see our troops in their backyards and our bombs falling on people who look like them than because American women can drive, American men consume porn, and there are gay bathhouses in Providence–which is what many on the right would have you believe.
You can ignore the religious aspect all you want Radster but Billy is right …. in their religion, anyone who isn’t one of them is better off being dead. If it was simply ‘being in their back yard’ then how come Native Americans aren’t car-bombing US cities? They have far more reason to hate us than the Palestinians weak claims about Israel. Yet they aren’t ….. and most Native Americans are actually Christians nowadays.
“Because they hate our freedom” might sound like another weak slogan along the lines of “War on Drugs” but you can’t ignore the Muslim aspect of the whole situation. It also doesn’t help that most Muslim news sources are completely biased and the majority of people over there believe every crack-pot conspiracy theory that they hear. More than half of them are convinced Israel was responsible for 9-11. Enough said ….
First of all: The Old and New Testaments come down just as hard on American decadence as the Koran. If we really wanna go through and pull out all the scary, extremist verses, we can play that game. The fact is, though, that fundamentalist Christians and Hassidic Jews aren’t nearly as riled up as your average Middle Easterner. Why? Possibly because their family members aren’t getting killed all the time, and their houses aren’t getting bombed, and they’re not losing their jobs, and they don’t have strangers in military uniforms with uzis hanging around their neighborhoods. Just a thought.
Second: I never understood this whole line of reasoning. If “America doesn’t cooperate with terrorists” AND “they hate us for our freedom,” then how could the PATRIOT act be construed as anything other than treason?
The second graph is pretty telling. I find it difficult to believe that so many over there are as worried about the Palestinians getting a sovereign state as they are about sticking it to the Israelis. But frankly, to tie their opinion of the US to the Israelis giving up Jerusalem leaves us very little hope.
I understand them wanting us to get out of the region. And I agree. They have nothing to offer but oil and grief, and we can get the oil elsewhere if we dedicate ourselves to doing so (and developing alternative fuels).
I have to assume that Billy thinks the middle east is a closed society in the way Russia was in the 1950’s. Note to Billy: It’s not. They have satellite TV and “the internets”. There is some censorship, but nothing like soviet Russia. They can travel outside their countries at will for leisure, business and education. They’re not grown children with only simple reasoning abilities like so many of the Billy’s out there would like to think. Dubai is rapidly becoming a major global financial center. Many residents of the middle east have damn good reasons to be upset with the US as Radley points out. Funny, they seem to still judge people by their actions and not their words. Guess we don’t to that here anymore. You know we have a strong dollar policy right?
Gee, if only we’d abandon Israel and pull out all our troops from everywhere in the M.E. they’d love us. What a load of crap. I’ve mentioned this book to anyone who’d listen if you want to know why they really dislike the entire non-muslim world:
http://www.amazon.com/Social-Justice-Islam-Sayyid-Qutb/dp/1889999121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209054215&sr=1-1
It’s by Sayyid Qutbs “Social Justice in Islam”, amazon is running a combo sale with “Milestones” by the same guy, get them both. Read them both, and THEN decide why they hate us. If you don’t know who he is, then you should probably not even have an opinion.
BTW, my sister married a saudi pilot and has lived in Jeddah for almost 30 years now. The so called “moderate muslim” is a myth. If you can find one from any M.E. country that doesn’t blame the jews/US for 70% of their nations problems, then you’re doing better than I have.
Radley — I will quote to you Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore’s line from “Apocalypse Now”: “Someday, this war is gonna end.”
When it does, you’ll see.
Now, watch the action and place your bets. I’ll be here when you realize just how wrong you really were.
They’re just animals Radley, can’t reason with them. You’ll see.
Have you BEEN to a Muslim country MassHole (why you chose that name is beyond me)?
Talk to someone who has visited one of them. They are not Soviet but they are plenty ‘closed’. And Dubai is hardly representative of most of the Middle East. There are a few westernized places in the Middle East and we usually don’t have a problem with them, do we?
It’s really strange that the percentages look the way hey do for the UAE considering that is one of our bigger allies over there. But notice that their biggest issue is brokering an Israeli/Palestinian deal. Whereas places like Egypt (where more terrorists come from) care more about ‘getting rid of us’.
And I get real tired of the liberal (and I guess libertarian) attempt to try to constantly equate fundamentalist christians and jews as somehow no better than fundamentalist muslims. The problem is in the numbers … When christians go fundamentalist they usually become ‘harmless’ like the Amish (and at worst wish you’d stop watching so much porn - not blow you up). Only a few small wackos emerge now and then (even less so for Jews). All in all, the ‘fundamentalists are a tiny portion of the worldwide christian population.
For muslims I’d argue this is hardly the case. The majority of them seem to be at least ‘ok’ with what the ‘extremists’ do (as seen in multiple polls).
Tokin42 kind of reiterated my point ……
The majority of them seem to be at least ‘ok’ with what the ‘extremists’ do (as seen in multiple polls).
Link, please.
I’d say it’s a hell of a lot more likely that the Muslim world hates us because they see our troops in their backyards and our bombs falling on people who look like them than because American women can drive, American men consume porn, and there are gay bathhouses in Providence–which is what many on the right would have you believe.
Not only would they have you believe that, but they call it “blaming America” if a person has the audacity not to.
Also, I think you mean Provincetown.
I agree that the second graph is crap, but at the same time it’s crap because we’re losing in the middle east because we have crappy PR that gets reinforced by the occasional folly and a desperate economic atmosphere. We make a great scapegoat for the people who want to retain power, whether political or social/religious (we already grant economic power to the ruling classes over there). The same thing happened over here after 9/11: blame these other people for your woes, and don’t pay attention to how we manipulate the fears of the populace for our own personal power. You take an Other (for us it was Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein), paint them as the Enemy, and say it’s a struggle for our way of life.
A surprising number of people will buy into it, and it’s a time-tested practice. Group think takes over, and the mob mentality is reinforced by a constant stream of propaganda saying to focus on the Other and ignore the problems around you. If it wasn’t for the Other, things would be peachy and we would live in paradise! Support us against the Other! Do not dissent, or you’re a subversive traitor and will be treated appropriately! It plays well to fear, loathing, hate, regret, concern, and a variety of other negative emotions, and is reinforced by people around us who buy up the propaganda. You tell a lie enough and people will start to believe it… it’s why politicians can go on TV and say something outrageous, but with a cowed media you’ll get them to repeat it as gospel truth if you get it out there enough.
We’re supposed to control the government, but more often than not it’s the other way around.
The Cato Institute would be better off reading Hirsi Ali, Nona Darwish, or other women refugees/converts from Islam rather than tryin to understand the attitudes of the people in the ME from “opinion polls”.
Of course they could always examine just how free the “information” is over there that contributes to “why they hate us”.
Unfortunately, looking at geopolitical issues thru the rose-colored glasses of free-market economics is going to lead to some absurd conclusions and this is one of them.
That doesn’t mean that a LOT of US foreign policy is bone-headed, but the Muslimi Brotherhood was started in 1928, way before Israel existed or America had any real presence in the ME (of course other European powers did). And way back in the 1683 the Muslims were stopped at the gates of Vienna and Islam receded to slowly be forced out of Europe.
Islam is not a “religion”, it is a political system of conquest, it uses a cult-like “religion”, Islam which preaches that ALL non-Muslims are sub-human, to promote its goal of spreading Islam, by force if necessary, to the entire world. The most “moderate” Muslim nation is not one that ANY ONE in America would (I hope) care to live in.
Make no mistake, Islam is at war with the US and the Wests way of life. How we are responding to that may be bone-headed but it doesn’t change the fact that Muslims, even in the US, are carrying signs pro-claiming death to the infidels. And they are not kidding.
Scott, the one muslim country we invaded and occupied was the one with the most religious freedom. Not so much anymore.
Mass, I didn’t say the US response to Islams’ war on us isn’t bone-headed (of course, Iraq wasn’t very “free” in any sensible application of that word anyway).
Now, address the maind point of my post - “Muslims, even in the US, are carrying signs pro-claiming death to the infidels. And they are not kidding.”
Another tenant of Islam is that one Muslim can’t criticize another Muslim no matter what that Muslim does, which goes along with their philosophy that only Muslims matter, and is why you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations.
Islam is a death cult married to a crime syndicate. Muhammed was brilliant in that regard. Islam is the perfect religion for those that want to violently subjugate women, and violently deal with any others that oppose you.
“Muslims, even in the US, are carrying signs pro-claiming death to the infidels. And they are not kidding.”
Links, please. Not that I doubt a few crazy fundamentalists are carrying such signs, but if they were “serious,” then I suspect we’d have seen an attack or two by now. Christian fundamentalists are just as “serious” about their literal interpretations of the Bible, which calls for the death of homosexuals and people who work on Sundays.
Another tenant of Islam is that one Muslim can’t criticize another Muslim no matter what that Muslim does, which goes along with their philosophy that only Muslims matter, and is why you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations.
Besides the fact that you’re suggesting there are no Muslims in the Iraqi Security Force, that there are no Muslims in Afghanistan working with coalition forces against the Taliban, and that there are no Muslims in the U.S. armed forces, you might check out this site:
http://www.muslimsforpeace.net/
Scott, Look dude, I think all religion is used to subjugate people, especially women. The Catholic church is no different, they just happened to stop their killing a while back. Government will always use religion to gain / retain power if it’s useful.
Now, you’re idea that every single muslim in the world is thirsty for infidel blood is silly. Are there hardcore nut job muslims? Sure, maybe there’s a lot. But the idea that every muslim in the world is just waiting for his chance to slit my throat or hopes that someone else does it is ludicrous. I guess all those non-muslims that work and live in the middle east don’t exist? Does it say in the Koran to slay all infidels, except the ones that work for Aramco? Where are all these murderous muslims in the US you’re talking about? I haven’t seen any beheading in the news lately. If killing infidels is the only thing driving their religion, then I would think our jails would be full of would be martyrs. Maybe I should start keeping an eye on that brown dude at work. According to you, he’s going postal when Allah gives him the signal.
Sorry, that was the wrong link. Try this:
http://www.mfp.org.au/?page_id=2
Of course, that there are two sites on my first Google for “Muslims for Peace” is only more proof that there’s no need to panic.
If we’d just leave the middle east all together, the problem would take care of itself. All of the Muslim countries will gang up on Israel who will nuke the shit out of them. Problem solved.
Couple that with allowing and encouraging US citizens and companies to protect themselves and their property, we’d be much safer than we are today.
Les and Mas,
There are none so blind as those that will not see.
Its also amazing to get rebuttals for things I haven’t said.
Anyway,
see http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
among many others.
Then what are you saying Scott? You wanted to engage me specifically and I replied.
“There are none so blind as those that will not see.”
Wow, so deep.
There is no point in engaging you Mas when you say -
“you’re idea that every single muslim in the world is thirsty for infidel blood is silly”
since I didn’t say that.
I’ve learned not to expect intelligence very often, unfortunately even from Radleys’ readers.
Scott,
You said:
Another tenant of Islam is that one Muslim can’t criticize another Muslim no matter what that Muslim does, which goes along with their philosophy that only Muslims matter, and is why you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations.
Along with pointing out that Muslims are assisting U.S. forces in fighting violent Muslims, I provided links that clearly demonstrated real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims.
So, yes, the rebuttal is to what you said. And you reply with a site detailing atrocities committed by radical Muslims.
But that’s not an intelligent reply, Scott, because it ignores the fact that what you originally said is factually wrong.
It’s as if the conversation went like this:
You: 2+2 is 5
Us: No, if you take 1 and 1 and 1 and 1, it adds up to 4, not 5.
You: What are you talking about? Anyway, 3+3 is 6.
It’s a childish way of arguing and indicates an disinterest in objective facts if they don’t fit into your world-view.
Could you show me a poll of Americans taken by a Middle Eastern journalist, to determine what we think about them? (Or, likewise, about Europeans, Latin Americans, etc..) Does the man on the street care what Americans think of him, and what he and his neighbors can do to make us like them better? Well, then why should we? These sorts of articles are merely manufactured news stories by journalists intending to push our buttons.
I understand the concern about our interventions generating new terrorists, for one thing. But the typical solopsistic American view of terrorism misses the crucial fact that the leaders of terrorist groups are not in it to hurt us, per se. They are in it to gain power over other Muslims. Hitting us gives them street cred, and they hope that when Western interventionist forces are gone, they are the ones in charge.
I can see the value in doing a market analysis if you’re wanting to target foreign consumers. And, so long as diplomats have so much power, it’s best that they have a good perspective on culture and history. But for me? I don’t care what John Q. Mohammed thinks of me.
I will ask again, what are you saying Scott?
You said:
“Make no mistake, Islam is at war with the US and the Wests way of life. How we are responding to that may be bone-headed but it doesn’t change the fact that Muslims, even in the US, are carrying signs pro-claiming death to the infidels. And they are not kidding.”
How does this not translate to: “Muslims (as a group) want to kill infidels”? If you had said: “Some crazy muslims want to kill infidels”, that would have made sense, but you have made no such qualifier.
So, what is it that you believe?
I’d like to know how I got so many thumbs down. Did I hurt peoples feelings by suggesting they might actually read a book by one of the leading scholars of modern islamic theory? A book that details his contempt for modern society long before any of the supposed acts of “american imperialism” or even the establishment of the state of Israel?
The problem is people don’t want to deal with the reality that Islam is a totalitarian system and unless you’re willing to submit to its authority, there will never be peace between a free society and islam. Free people the world wide have been dealing with the same issue for the last thousand years, this shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone who actually takes the time to study.
“The Catholic church is no different, they just happened to stop their killing a while back.”
That’s just astounding. That sentence states a manifest difference and says that there is no difference.
Hell: the impossibility of reason.
Maybe you’ll take the word of NPR instead:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1253796
quote: Qutb pointed out many things Americans take for granted as examples of the nation’s culture of greed — for example, the green lawns in front of homes in Greeley.
This was 1940’s Iowa btw that pissed him off. He also had issues with the haircuts the infidel iowans were sporting during that era. I’m sure that it’s all just a big misunderstanding. He obviously doesn’t know his own “religion of peace” as well as some of you folks. Kinda like the leading centers of shia and sunni factions (iran/SA) don’t understand their religion as well as some of you.
Billy Beck, what is astounding is you don’t understand the analogy nor the context of my comment.
Your analogy was clear but weak Mass …. yes: ’some’ Catholics acted 1000 years ago like MANY muslims do today. How does that NOT prove our point that muslims, in much greater numbers, are extremist and that their religion/cult is the problem and driving force, not ‘we’re in their backyard’?
As Robert suggested, I believe there really are only 2 options:
1) what we are doing
or
2) let it all go to shit and end up nuking the whole region (or letting Israel nuke everyone).
And if Iran gets a nuke, then the whole formula goes to shit. You can keep sticking your head in the sand but it doesn’t deny history or reality.
“Context: the sum of cognitive elements that conditions the acquisition, validity, or application of any item of knowledge.” (Emphasis added.)
Now: your reference to the Catholic church referred to “subjugat[ion]“. So far as that goes, the council of the village near where I live qualifies. (If you don’t think so, then you get to take it up with people who’re getting killed in property taxes for the privilege of “owning” houses there.) In order to draw the comparison that you did, one must ignore rampant muslim atrocities: tell me the last time that the Catholic church stoned an adulterer to death.
If you want to step in the matter of “context”, you’re going to have to walk all the way through it.
Obvious point: Those people surveyed in the poll don’t have to be _correct_ in their reasoning for it to actually be their reasoning. That is, they don’t have to be RIGHT that it’s objectionable for the US to offer unqualified support to Israel to the detriment of Palestinians for them to honestly believe that the US is wrong to do so. I think they have a pretty good point, but even if I didn’t, I don’t have to assume that they are lying.
I find it interesting that so many people objected to Radley’s post with something along the lines of “Islam is teh evil” — which may or may not be true, but which seems tangential to the point. It may be the case that adherence to Islam is a factor in believing things about the legitimacy of certain US actions or even US culture - but that’s not at all the same thing as believing that multiple cultures of people who happen to share the same religion have, as their principle objection to the US, problems with women having the vote or decorative lawns. There’s simply no plausible account of that strong “they hate our values” view, and it’s notable that you basically have consider an entire region of people total and absolute liars in order to work your way into believing it.
Oh and Les, first link on Google:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/06/new_study_political_islam_corr.html
I see one of these every month … they generally suggest what I said earlier:
While not all muslims would strap a bomb to their chest and blow up a bus full of kids, a majority of the world’s muslim population still at least marginally supports those that do (especially if the deaths are to jews or christians). And THAT is what the western world better … I’m anti-abortion but I’d say “lock ‘em up and throw away the key” to anyone who bombs an abortion clinic.
I meant ‘and THAT is what makes the western world better’
JJH2, I believe I said that in my initial post. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clearer but their views, in light of the top 2 things they’d like us to do, are a load of crap. Let me paraphrase their top 2 issues “submit to our and allahs (peas be upon him) will”. Like I said in my 2nd post, it doesn’t matter what the issue of the day is unless you’re willing to submit to allahs will there will never be real peace.
Totalitarianism, in all it’s forms and names, IS “teh evil”. If you’re willing to accept one form of it, you’ll be willing to accept another that’s going to hit much closer to home.
DOWN WITH THE MAN!!! sorry, couldn’t help myself.
And do you care? I don’t….
Should we change “our policies” because they don’t like them? By that reasoning Hitler would be running the show. Every once in a while, you DO have to stand up for what you think is the right thing, whether people like it or not. I believe a guy named Kennedy wrote a book about that…..
James,
If you said “Muslims in the Middle East and Africa who support a strong role for Islam in politics are more likely to also support terrorism,” I wouldn’t disagree with you because it’s not a ridiculous statement.
I was responding to Scott’s ridiculous statement that “…you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations.”
That said, if we take the polling as accurate, it doesn’t support Scott’s ridiculous statement and it doesn’t make irrelevant the site I linked to.
Here’s another ridiculous statement from above:
…there will never be peace between a free society and islam.
This baseless sentiment (as if there aren’t devout Muslims living peacefully in and with the U.S., Canada, Australia, etc, etc) and Scott’s are simply bigotry in action.
Careful robertl, they freak around here if you use Hitler in an example ….
Les, it’s a numbers game. There are like 1.2 billion muslims in the world … what percentage of those have been ‘westernized’ and what percentage haven’t ….. the percentage that haven’t is much higher and that’s the issue.
James, I don’t disagree with you in terms of the barbaric nature of fundamentalist Islamic societies overseas. There’s little we can do to change the mindset over there, except for leading by example.
The bigoted comments of people like Scott and Tokin42 reflect a philosophy similar in many ways to the fundamentalists.
Typical reaction by Les to unpopular ideas - scream BIGOT! and ignore the fact that the person labeled a bigot didn’t say one bigoted thing.
That hardly passes for intellectual argument.
If they are at peace with us, it is because they aren’t following their religion properly. Unless all of the translations of the Koran (Quaran, whatever) I’ve read in are way off, they’re supposed to subjigate Christians and Jews, kill everyone else.
I have no illusions about the nature of Islam. I just don’t think what we’re doing to combat it is correct. When you are against somthing (Islam and the fascism and loss of freedom that accompanies it), making yourself more like it (the US plunging into fascism, Patriot Act, etc…) is not going to combat it.
Rather we need to combat it by making our country more free which will bring prosperity and power. Not only will that set an example for the rest of the world, we will be better able to defend ourselves if there ever was a direct threat from an Islamic power.
Here is the post you guys are nitpicking:
“I think all religion is used to subjugate people, especially women. The Catholic church is no different, they just happened to stop their killing a while back. Government will always use religion to gain / retain power if it’s useful.”
My entire point was that religion, IN GENERAL, is a tool of control. The Catholic Church AND Islam have both used religion and violence to gain control of populations and create wealth for their respective leaders. By creating “the other”, such as infidels or heretics, they focus the populations anger on outside forces. In addition, I made it clear that the Catholic church does not kill people at this point in history.
“How does that NOT prove our point that muslims, in much greater numbers, are extremist and that their religion/cult is the problem and driving force, not ‘we’re in their backyard’?”
This goes back to what I said in reply to Scott. If Islam was the ONLY reason they were upset, then wouldn’t every devout Muslim be trying to kill infidels daily? However, it seems the vast majority wake up every day and go to work or school or shopping just like us. A lot of Catholics use birth control. Are they not Catholics? Most Muslims don’t kill infidels. Are they not Muslim?
Not every Muslim is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Sayyid Qutbs writings came centuries after the founding of Islam just like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormon’s came centuries after Christ. Yes, there are nutjob Muslims that would like to kill infidels, no doubt about it. But lumping all Muslims in with them is foolish and counterproductive.
The bottom line is, Americans and Europeans have been meddling in the middle east for a long time. We are in their backyard, whether it’s military bases, oil companies, or the invasion of Iraq. We give billions of dollars a year not only to Israel, but to Egypt as well. We prop up corrupt rulers like the Saudis who live in amazing luxury while making no effort to modernize or better their country. We say we stand for freedom, democracy and human rights while sending prisoners to Egypt to be held without charge and tortured, in a country where Mubarak has been “president” since 1981.
Arabs are not stupid. They can the see greed and cynicism that drives our foreign policy. They see the boot on the neck of their neighbors in Iraq. They see that we say one thing and do another. They know we didn’t invade Iraq over the WMD BS or “to spread freedom”. They know it was for oil and empire, and their right.
Right Mas, oil and empire. Hmmm lets see, have the UN relax the sanctions and let Saddam sell all the oil he wants, or spend billions of $’s on war to get the oil. Even the evil Bush-Cheney & Co isn’t that stupid.
Empire, hmmmm. Lets see, work like hell to let the Iraqis write their own Constitution (one that specifically states that Islamic Shari law is supreme) and turn over the country before they’re ready to run it. Why didn’t we write the Constitution and force our way of life on them? Maybe make them the 51st state! Now that would be empire. We used to know how to do it right. The Phillipines comes to mind.
My original response to Radleys post stipulated that taking opinion polls from the ME which is made up of mostly very totalitarian Muslim dominated gov’ts can hardly be expected to yield believable results. Better to ask people who’ve lived it, particulalry women. The Cato insitute is real good at domestic political/economic issues but the dynamics of a religious philosophy of conquest don’t respond to Milton Freidman like analysis.
oh, and no attacks in the US? hmmmm, the Salt Lake mall shooter a couple months back - Muslim. Got a hero’s burial in Bosnia. Remember the DC beltway snipers? right, Muslim. There is quite a litany of others plus the ones like those that recently got arrested with pipe bombs near a US base. Maybe their all just nuts (I certainly won’t blam all violence in the US an ANY one group) but their are plenty of Muslims advocating violence against the infidels (look up UK Mosques un-covered on YouTube). And maybe some of those nuts are being influenced by it.
My prediction - when Muslims hit 3-5% in the US there is going to be noticeable violence, even for our PC addled media to be unable to ignore. When it gets to the level as it is in Sweden or France then get back to me about my “bigotry”.
and ignore the fact that the person labeled a bigot didn’t say one bigoted thing.
Sorry, Scott. But saying that “…“…you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations,” is bigoted. It says that ALL Muslims condone or excuse Islamic violence. That’s bigoted. One way that you can tell it’s bigoted is that it’s factually incorrect. Also, it’s stupid.
If they are at peace with us, it is because they aren’t following their religion properly.
The exact same thing can be said about the Bible, if you’re at all familiar with it. The punishment for working on the Sabbath, for committing adultery, for being gay, among a variety of other things, is the same: Death.
Hey, Scott, what percentage of mass murderers in America were raised as Christians?
I’m sure it doesn’t matter to you.
So, Mr. Balko, since it seems important to adjust US policies to improve our polling numbers in Islamic countries, what should our new policies be?
It’s one of those amusing paradoxes that the more powerful a country is the more the rest of the world feel involved in its politics.
The point has already been raised above that no middle eastern news outlet would dream of publishing a survey of American views and concerns because the mindset over there is squarely that ‘the problem is with America’.
Likewise, though less perniciously, in Europe the overwhelming attitude toward America is one of ‘they have the power so they should do as we say’. This is true whether it be on global warming, Iraq or a number of other issues.
It’s no surprise to me that Americans get bored of listening to surveys about what they ’should’ do from people that seem entirely unwilling to explore the problems in their own society.
My comment -
“I certainly won’t blame all violence in the US an ANY one group)”
Definition of bigot -
“A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding ideology.”
Les’ comment is a blazing non-sequitur -
“Sorry, Scott. But saying that “…“…you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations,” is bigoted. It says that ALL Muslims condone or excuse Islamic violence. That’s bigoted. One way that you can tell it’s bigoted is that it’s factually incorrect. Also, it’s stupid.”
Methinks it is Les that is bigoted (against unpopular non-PC opinions) . He can be judged also by the fact that he quickly resorts to name calling (”stupid”).
THe survey ask what would imporve the ME opinion in regards to the U.S. One of the bigest responses received was that our Occupation in Iraq is a mjor source of concern. What was the underlying source of concern in before 9/11? Why did they hate us then? It could not have been our occupation of Iraq?
scott, I didn’t say that you were stupid. I said that what you said was stupid. And it was. We all say stupid things now and again (I say stupid things probably more than your average person). You should be honest and humble enough to admit that it was a stupid thing to say there are no Muslims fighting with coalition forces and no Muslims criticizing Islamic violence.
And you said it yourself, a bigot is “a prejudiced person…” You have pre-judged all Muslims as not fighting against Islamic violence. You picked out a handful of incidents of violence by American Muslims and pre-judged that violence to have been inspired by Islam, instead of say, mental illness, or simply sociopathic, violent tendencies which exist in small percentages of every race and culture. And you chose not to compare the rates of violence by Muslims in America to the rates of violence by other ethnic groups. You’ve made up your mind about Muslims as a whole. That, by definition, is bigoted.
Whether or not you’re a bigot, depends on whether or not you believe that we should judge individuals by their actions or we should judge large groups of people based on the actions of individuals.
people think their rights are a gift bestowed upon them by their government therefore can be taken back at any time
Les,
I didn’t say -
“there are no Muslims fighting with coalition forces and no Muslims criticizing Islamic violence.” So how can I admit saying something stupid. You’re putting words in my mouth and then judging me by YOUR words. Thats stupid!
I said this-
“you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations.” Note the word “real” which denotes that I am qualifying the statement. It is clearly my opinion. And it is clearly a reasonable, AND NOT STUPID thing to say. Pay attention to the words in the post before responding. In other words, THINK before you speak!
NOTHING in my post supports YOUR claim that I -
“ve made up your mind about Muslims as a whole. That, by definition, is bigoted.”
That is YOUR opinion of me, which is NOT REASONABLE based upon anything I’ve said in my posts.
Islam (I’m speaking of the “religion”, not Muslims) is a “cult” created by a epileptic pedophile for the reason of justifying his (Muhammeds’) every lust for violence and child-rape. Thats my opinion too, but it doesn’t make me a bigot.
So, Scott, you’re saying that the Muslims fighting and dying alongside coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are not expressing “real opposition.”
That’s a stupid thing to say. Just admit it, already.
When you pick out a few instances of violence by Muslims as some kind of evidence for the dangers of Islam in America (ignoring the much higher rates of violent crime committed by those raised as Christians), when you warn us that Muslim violence will increase as more Muslims arrive in the U.S. (which goes without saying for any ethnic or religious group), then yes, it’s reasonable to assume that you’ve made up your mind about Muslims as a whole. I’m willing to believe you haven’t (not that I think you care what I think or that you should care what I think), but you’re not doing a good job of demonstrating that you don’t base your opinion of Muslims as a whole on the actions of a few individual Muslims.
I actually agree with you regarding the origins of the Islamic religion. But just as devout Christians and Jews manage to live decent, upright lives while using a guidebook that condones and advocates the worst kinds of bigotry and mass murder, so too have Muslims managed the same.
Les,
There is nothing to suggest that “Muslims fighting and dying alongside coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan” has anything to do with fighting Islamic terrorism in the US (or around the world), perhaps their motivations are different from ours. You just love to make assumptions don’t you?
Though I been specific enough for anyone to understand the thrust of my comments, evidently one has to write a detailed thesis for you to grasp anything.
You keep trying to put words in my mouth, so STOP!
It is NOT REASONABLE - “that it’s reasonable to assume that you’ve made up your mind about Muslims as a whole.” That is YOUR error, so I repeat - STOP making stupid assumptions that are un-supported by any part of my posts.
Radleys’ post dealt with an opinion poll of “why they hate us”. I pointed out that taking opinions from people who are living mostly in a theological dictatorship has a high risk of returning non-useable information, and so might not be the best way to decide what we should do.
And I said -
“Make no mistake, Islam is at war with the US and the Wests way of life. How we are responding to that may be bone-headed but it doesn’t change the fact that Muslims, even in the US, are carrying signs pro-claiming death to the infidels. And they are not kidding.” Admittedly, THAT IS MY OPINION! This column, thread, and for that matter the entire GD’d internet if full of opinions, yours included.
I guess for you, I should have said there are “some un-determined number of Muslims (though not necessarily ALL Muslims feel this way) that are carrying signs pro-claiming death to the infidels, and that while there may be some Muslim groups that claim to oppose the “extremist” parts of Islam that as far as I know none have joined counter-demonstrations or staged their rally’s in which they carry signs pro-claiming death to Bin Laden or such, that it leads me to belive there is no significant movement of Muslims in the US (or around the world for that matter) that are seriously trying to reform their (in my opinion) violent, intolerant, religion”.
Would that be nuanced and equivocal enough for you? Would that assauge your tender concerns about what I think?
Not that I care what you think, as you pointed out (pretty much the only intelligent thing you’ve said.
End of discussion.
There is nothing to suggest that “Muslims fighting and dying alongside coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan” has anything to do with fighting Islamic terrorism in the US (or around the world)…
Oh, I see, so they’re fighting and dying alongside our soldiers for nothing! Brilliant! How decent of you!
End of discussion.
Good idea. Obviously, examining your prejudices and inability to clearly communicate have made you uncomfortable and frustrated. I wouldn’t want that for you. Though I will wish you luck in what is obviously the very start of your personal journey.
Adios, Amoeba!
“Oh, I see, so they’re fighting and dying alongside our soldiers for nothing!”
That’s a very naive way of looking at this issue. They are fighting and dying for their own reasons, which temporarily coincide with our own. It’s pure expediency. The moment that is no longer true, they will fight and die against us. Again.
This opinion poll proves nothing, like most opinion polls.
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