That’s a very naive way of looking at this issue. They are fighting and dying for their own reasons, which temporarily coincide with our own. It’s pure expediency. The moment that is no longer true, they will fight and die against us. Again.

This opinion poll proves nothing, like most opinion polls.

Oh, I see, so they’re fighting and dying alongside our soldiers for nothing! Brilliant! How decent of you!

End of discussion.

Good idea. Obviously, examining your prejudices and inability to clearly communicate have made you uncomfortable and frustrated. I wouldn’t want that for you. Though I will wish you luck in what is obviously the very start of your personal journey.

Adios, Amoeba!

There is nothing to suggest that “Muslims fighting and dying alongside coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan” has anything to do with fighting Islamic terrorism in the US (or around the world), perhaps their motivations are different from ours. You just love to make assumptions don’t you?

Though I been specific enough for anyone to understand the thrust of my comments, evidently one has to write a detailed thesis for you to grasp anything.

You keep trying to put words in my mouth, so STOP!

It is NOT REASONABLE – “that it’s reasonable to assume that you’ve made up your mind about Muslims as a whole.” That is YOUR error, so I repeat – STOP making stupid assumptions that are un-supported by any part of my posts.

Radleys’ post dealt with an opinion poll of “why they hate us”. I pointed out that taking opinions from people who are living mostly in a theological dictatorship has a high risk of returning non-useable information, and so might not be the best way to decide what we should do.

And I said -

“Make no mistake, Islam is at war with the US and the Wests way of life. How we are responding to that may be bone-headed but it doesn’t change the fact that Muslims, even in the US, are carrying signs pro-claiming death to the infidels. And they are not kidding.” Admittedly, THAT IS MY OPINION! This column, thread, and for that matter the entire GD’d internet if full of opinions, yours included.

I guess for you, I should have said there are “some un-determined number of Muslims (though not necessarily ALL Muslims feel this way) that are carrying signs pro-claiming death to the infidels, and that while there may be some Muslim groups that claim to oppose the “extremist” parts of Islam that as far as I know none have joined counter-demonstrations or staged their rally’s in which they carry signs pro-claiming death to Bin Laden or such, that it leads me to belive there is no significant movement of Muslims in the US (or around the world for that matter) that are seriously trying to reform their (in my opinion) violent, intolerant, religion”.

Would that be nuanced and equivocal enough for you? Would that assauge your tender concerns about what I think?

Not that I care what you think, as you pointed out (pretty much the only intelligent thing you’ve said.

End of discussion.

That’s a stupid thing to say. Just admit it, already.

When you pick out a few instances of violence by Muslims as some kind of evidence for the dangers of Islam in America (ignoring the much higher rates of violent crime committed by those raised as Christians), when you warn us that Muslim violence will increase as more Muslims arrive in the U.S. (which goes without saying for any ethnic or religious group), then yes, it’s reasonable to assume that you’ve made up your mind about Muslims as a whole. I’m willing to believe you haven’t (not that I think you care what I think or that you should care what I think), but you’re not doing a good job of demonstrating that you don’t base your opinion of Muslims as a whole on the actions of a few individual Muslims.

I actually agree with you regarding the origins of the Islamic religion. But just as devout Christians and Jews manage to live decent, upright lives while using a guidebook that condones and advocates the worst kinds of bigotry and mass murder, so too have Muslims managed the same.

I didn’t say -

“there are no Muslims fighting with coalition forces and no Muslims criticizing Islamic violence.” So how can I admit saying something stupid. You’re putting words in my mouth and then judging me by YOUR words. Thats stupid!

I said this-

“you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations.” Note the word “real” which denotes that I am qualifying the statement. It is clearly my opinion. And it is clearly a reasonable, AND NOT STUPID thing to say. Pay attention to the words in the post before responding. In other words, THINK before you speak!

NOTHING in my post supports YOUR claim that I -

“ve made up your mind about Muslims as a whole. That, by definition, is bigoted.”

That is YOUR opinion of me, which is NOT REASONABLE based upon anything I’ve said in my posts.

Islam (I’m speaking of the “religion”, not Muslims) is a “cult” created by a epileptic pedophile for the reason of justifying his (Muhammeds’) every lust for violence and child-rape. Thats my opinion too, but it doesn’t make me a bigot.

And you said it yourself, a bigot is “a prejudiced person…” You have pre-judged all Muslims as not fighting against Islamic violence. You picked out a handful of incidents of violence by American Muslims and pre-judged that violence to have been inspired by Islam, instead of say, mental illness, or simply sociopathic, violent tendencies which exist in small percentages of every race and culture. And you chose not to compare the rates of violence by Muslims in America to the rates of violence by other ethnic groups. You’ve made up your mind about Muslims as a whole. That, by definition, is bigoted.

Whether or not you’re a bigot, depends on whether or not you believe that we should judge individuals by their actions or we should judge large groups of people based on the actions of individuals.

“I certainly won’t blame all violence in the US an ANY one group)”

Definition of bigot -

“A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding ideology.”

Les’ comment is a blazing non-sequitur -

“Sorry, Scott. But saying that “…“…you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations,” is bigoted. It says that ALL Muslims condone or excuse Islamic violence. That’s bigoted. One way that you can tell it’s bigoted is that it’s factually incorrect. Also, it’s stupid.”

Methinks it is Les that is bigoted (against unpopular non-PC opinions) . He can be judged also by the fact that he quickly resorts to name calling (“stupid”).

The point has already been raised above that no middle eastern news outlet would dream of publishing a survey of American views and concerns because the mindset over there is squarely that ‘the problem is with America’.

Likewise, though less perniciously, in Europe the overwhelming attitude toward America is one of ‘they have the power so they should do as we say’. This is true whether it be on global warming, Iraq or a number of other issues.

It’s no surprise to me that Americans get bored of listening to surveys about what they ‘should’ do from people that seem entirely unwilling to explore the problems in their own society.

I’m sure it doesn’t matter to you.

Sorry, Scott. But saying that “…“…you don’t see any real opposition to Islamic violence by Muslims, only equivocations,” is bigoted. It says that ALL Muslims condone or excuse Islamic violence. That’s bigoted. One way that you can tell it’s bigoted is that it’s factually incorrect. Also, it’s stupid.

If they are at peace with us, it is because they aren’t following their religion properly.

The exact same thing can be said about the Bible, if you’re at all familiar with it. The punishment for working on the Sabbath, for committing adultery, for being gay, among a variety of other things, is the same: Death.

Empire, hmmmm. Lets see, work like hell to let the Iraqis write their own Constitution (one that specifically states that Islamic Shari law is supreme) and turn over the country before they’re ready to run it. Why didn’t we write the Constitution and force our way of life on them? Maybe make them the 51st state! Now that would be empire. We used to know how to do it right. The Phillipines comes to mind.

My original response to Radleys post stipulated that taking opinion polls from the ME which is made up of mostly very totalitarian Muslim dominated gov’ts can hardly be expected to yield believable results. Better to ask people who’ve lived it, particulalry women. The Cato insitute is real good at domestic political/economic issues but the dynamics of a religious philosophy of conquest don’t respond to Milton Freidman like analysis.

oh, and no attacks in the US? hmmmm, the Salt Lake mall shooter a couple months back – Muslim. Got a hero’s burial in Bosnia. Remember the DC beltway snipers? right, Muslim. There is quite a litany of others plus the ones like those that recently got arrested with pipe bombs near a US base. Maybe their all just nuts (I certainly won’t blam all violence in the US an ANY one group) but their are plenty of Muslims advocating violence against the infidels (look up UK Mosques un-covered on YouTube). And maybe some of those nuts are being influenced by it.

My prediction – when Muslims hit 3-5% in the US there is going to be noticeable violence, even for our PC addled media to be unable to ignore. When it gets to the level as it is in Sweden or France then get back to me about my “bigotry”.

“I think all religion is used to subjugate people, especially women. The Catholic church is no different, they just happened to stop their killing a while back. Government will always use religion to gain / retain power if it’s useful.”

My entire point was that religion, IN GENERAL, is a tool of control. The Catholic Church AND Islam have both used religion and violence to gain control of populations and create wealth for their respective leaders. By creating “the other”, such as infidels or heretics, they focus the populations anger on outside forces. In addition, I made it clear that the Catholic church does not kill people at this point in history.

“How does that NOT prove our point that muslims, in much greater numbers, are extremist and that their religion/cult is the problem and driving force, not ‘we’re in their backyard’?”

This goes back to what I said in reply to Scott. If Islam was the ONLY reason they were upset, then wouldn’t every devout Muslim be trying to kill infidels daily? However, it seems the vast majority wake up every day and go to work or school or shopping just like us. A lot of Catholics use birth control. Are they not Catholics? Most Muslims don’t kill infidels. Are they not Muslim?

Not every Muslim is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Sayyid Qutbs writings came centuries after the founding of Islam just like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormon’s came centuries after Christ. Yes, there are nutjob Muslims that would like to kill infidels, no doubt about it. But lumping all Muslims in with them is foolish and counterproductive.

The bottom line is, Americans and Europeans have been meddling in the middle east for a long time. We are in their backyard, whether it’s military bases, oil companies, or the invasion of Iraq. We give billions of dollars a year not only to Israel, but to Egypt as well. We prop up corrupt rulers like the Saudis who live in amazing luxury while making no effort to modernize or better their country. We say we stand for freedom, democracy and human rights while sending prisoners to Egypt to be held without charge and tortured, in a country where Mubarak has been “president” since 1981.

Arabs are not stupid. They can the see greed and cynicism that drives our foreign policy. They see the boot on the neck of their neighbors in Iraq. They see that we say one thing and do another. They know we didn’t invade Iraq over the WMD BS or “to spread freedom”. They know it was for oil and empire, and their right.

This baseless sentiment (as if there aren’t devout Muslims living peacefully in and with the U.S., Canada, Australia, etc, etc) and Scott’s are simply bigotry in action.

If they are at peace with us, it is because they aren’t following their religion properly. Unless all of the translations of the Koran (Quaran, whatever) I’ve read in are way off, they’re supposed to subjigate Christians and Jews, kill everyone else.

I have no illusions about the nature of Islam. I just don’t think what we’re doing to combat it is correct. When you are against somthing (Islam and the fascism and loss of freedom that accompanies it), making yourself more like it (the US plunging into fascism, Patriot Act, etc…) is not going to combat it.

Rather we need to combat it by making our country more free which will bring prosperity and power. Not only will that set an example for the rest of the world, we will be better able to defend ourselves if there ever was a direct threat from an Islamic power.

That hardly passes for intellectual argument.

The bigoted comments of people like Scott and Tokin42 reflect a philosophy similar in many ways to the fundamentalists.