Partial correction: should read “Reality dictates that some people are evil from birth. They become government thugs because they’re horrible people who want to kill for a living.”

Thank you for your time.

Obviously, there are multiple variables going into this, so I’d want to know what states had enacted prohibition on their own prior to this, and the economic environment, and probably even more factors that affect the murder rate, then maybe try to compare similar intervals in other variables and see how the murder rate compares.

Now with the influx of cheap mexican meth even the professional chefs can’t compete. In mexico it is made on an industrial scale and one can’t match production and price. Most of these former cooks are not cooking anymore. The money isn’t there and the danger from mexican traffickers is too great. Pretty much the only people cooking are tweakers who don’t have the money for even the cheap mexican meth or just to make a few bucks and support their habit on the cheap. Not to mention that the mexican drug imports brought a new level of crime to the areas which is a story in and of itself.

If one could walk into the local pharmacy and buy pharmaceutical grade amphetamines for a reasonable price (which at one time when America was free you could indeed do) most of the crime and the problems of mexican drug trafficking and the crime it brings would disappear.

If we decriminalized we’d have far fewer problems. We could end the startling militarization of our police forces (which in this area is simply shocking) and perhaps those poor rural folks could make a little money by selling legal marijuana to companies who supply pharmacies and other retail outlets or begin industrial hemp production.

We beat up Jack over here.

Canada tried that ultra taxing of smokes some years ago. Result?

MY GAWD I can buy an 80 mph boat off the showroom floor today that can carry 200 cases of smokes across the river in mere minutes!

I live in newark nj, where there is a HUGE black market in cigarettes, however this market did not exist until a HUGE increase in taxes applied to cigarettes that pushed the price for a pack from around $3.00 a pack to $5.00 and prices now hover around $6.00. Prior tp that you never saw anyone on the street selling cigarettes. The average salary in newark is around $30-40 however many make less. If you smoked a pack a day you suddenly saw your weekly cost go from $21 a week to right now $35 or $1092 a year to $2184 (give me a moments pause while I reflect that I spend $2184 on this nasty habit a year.) Not trying to defend cigarette smoking but the sudden increase in taxes CREATED the black market.

What I’d like to see is it legalized so that Marlboro or Camel could put out their own packs of Marijuana cigarettes that can be picked up at the corner store and regulated - if there must be regulation - in the same way as cigarettes are.

Is there a black market now for cigarettes? Yes. But it was created by the high taxes on smokes. I’m sure one would be created for Marijuana as well but it would certainly be better than the one that exists now.

Also, I talked to one of my best friends who used to be a morphine addict and dealt to support his habit (100mg/day). I told him about this debate, and he laughed his ass off for a couple minutes.

The drug users tell one story. I guarantee their dealer will tell you something different. When you hear about 100’s of meth labs being busted in one state, each one making kilos at a time, I find it really hard to believe that’s all going to some hard-partying college kids.

“Alex, we can at least agree that using the criminal justice system to control drug use does not work, can we not?”

Of course we can, so really this is a moot point. I just know from personal experience that the one statement is not true at all for the very hardest drugs.

From my experience, this is an accurate statement. I’ve known quite a few drug users in my life, but only one that I would consider an addict.
And I’d venture to guess that there are far more casual users of meth and heroin than there are addicts.

You should check out the book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1585423181/reasonmagazineA/

http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/body/drugs/usage/liverpool.html

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Misc/60minliv.htm

“And the vast majority of drug users–even “hard” drug users–don’t turn into addicts. ”

had referred to first-time users or experimenters, I think it would be dead on. However, it reads as if Radley is saying that most heroin and meth users are casual, which of course is bullshit.

Still, I wonder at this:

“4) It rests on the absurd assumption that it’s appropriate and logical to throw people in jail in order to protect them from becoming addicts.”

Most people that I know of don’t advocate throwing people in jail to protect them from becoming addicts. Most that I know advocate jailing them to keep them from engaging in criminal activities to support their habit. They seem to assume that an addict is automatically a thief who would rob to support their addiction–and that the rest of us need to be protected from the larceny and violence of the addicts.

Perhaps I’m wrong and more people think the way you suggest, but that hasn’t been my experience and I don’t see it in what Dunphy wrote, either. There is a pretty big difference in those positions, though.

As for drugs v/ alcohol: when I was young both were easily had. I drank more regularly than I smoked. I don’t find it convincing that an underage person who can easily find an eight-ball couldn’t find a way to get a six pack of cheap beer.

On the other hand, Alex, I used meth along with coke for a few years on a pretty regular basis (at least once every few weeks, socially, with a small group of friends who loved to play “My Drug Buddy”), although I’ve never touched heroin because I didn’t get the point of it. I think that I would have qualified as your “long term casual meth user”–and, let me tell you, I never robbed anyone, never committed a violent crime, and simply stopped using when I decided I wanted to stop using.

Like most people who drink, most drug users never become addicts, never do anything more stupid than calling an ex-girlfriend at stupid hours of the morning, and never let drugs control their lives.

And for someone who is an addict, I don’t think it matters what drug they choose. They’ll find something to fuck their lives up with because that’s what they aim to do. It’s not the drugs, it’s the person.

However, I think there’s two aspects of the Drug War that need to be addressed seperately. There’s meth, heroin, PCP, etc. and then there’s everything else. I’m generally pro-decriminilization on all fronts. However, arguements for marijuna leglization are necessarily different than arguements for meth legaliztion (and pharmaceutical legalization, which is my pet cause). People like JJH2 make these elaborate, philosophical arguements about both, but the bottom line is that they resonate with very few.

BTW, I’m not going to talk about all of my sundry personal experiences on the topic, but I will say that a lot of friends from the neighborhood, from the Army, from college, etc. have been bad off at some point. I just have such a gutteral distate for these arguements I know from experience to be way off-base.

I experimented with most drugs short of anything injected for several years in high school and early on in college. While going to school full time I was able to work part time and still graduated on time with good grades. I haven’t touched anything illegal for close to 5 years now, not because of any negative consequences these substances caused but because I experienced all I could with them.

Am I rarity? Perhaps. But I know many people who occasionally use harder drugs, mostly cocaine, and share very common experiences with me and are gainfully employed.

As for the ease of purchasing illegal drugs, when I was still underage, especially in high school, finding drugs was much easier than finding alcohol. No one checks IDs when purchasing an eighth of marijuana but they do when trying to purchase a six pack. I could have called any number of people to find an illicit substance but there were very few who had access to alcohol on any regular basis.