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	<title>Comments on: My New Fox Column&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Nick T</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74959</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74959</guid>
		<description>Primus,

I don't think it's that simple at all.  It's not incompetence as much as it is indifference.  Prosecutors are bent on securing convictions, and judges are scared to let criminals walk even where it means enforcing their rights (I see this first hand everyday).  It's not the inherent inaccuracy with having random people determine the facts of an event they did not observe first-hand. It's a willingness to believ the ID of a witness even after they got it wrong twice, or to withhold exculpatory evidence because the cops "just know" this guy is guilty.  There is a rhyme and reason to these mistakes, it's that people are aggressively trying to put away people they believe are criminals.  

Oh, and it's clearly worse to convict an innocent man than it is to let a guilty one go free.  If you disagree, you are welcome to go start your own country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Primus,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s that simple at all.  It&#8217;s not incompetence as much as it is indifference.  Prosecutors are bent on securing convictions, and judges are scared to let criminals walk even where it means enforcing their rights (I see this first hand everyday).  It&#8217;s not the inherent inaccuracy with having random people determine the facts of an event they did not observe first-hand. It&#8217;s a willingness to believ the ID of a witness even after they got it wrong twice, or to withhold exculpatory evidence because the cops &#8220;just know&#8221; this guy is guilty.  There is a rhyme and reason to these mistakes, it&#8217;s that people are aggressively trying to put away people they believe are criminals.  </p>
<p>Oh, and it&#8217;s clearly worse to convict an innocent man than it is to let a guilty one go free.  If you disagree, you are welcome to go start your own country.</p>
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		<title>By: primus</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74538</link>
		<dc:creator>primus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74538</guid>
		<description>Is this not the other side of the coin?  Courts regularly mess up and criminals walk.  Of course it works both ways.  Incompetence is rampant.  Everywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this not the other side of the coin?  Courts regularly mess up and criminals walk.  Of course it works both ways.  Incompetence is rampant.  Everywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick T</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74521</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74521</guid>
		<description>David, You do not get the same appellate rights when you cop a plea.  This does actually make a lot of sense, though ,becuase otherwise you would be contensting evidence that was never admitted, or contesting the procedures of a trial that never occurred.  You can only appeal very limited things after reaching a deal.  

Radley, I think your articel is great, but you missed the real impact of the appellate system.  It is impossible and kind of silly to have appellate court re-try the case, and so their rightful role is to review the procedure and fairness of the overall trial and only overturn for problems of substance in extreme cases.  (Otherwise we no longer have a jury system, really.)  So that means then that the appellate courts aren't overturning convinctions because the proceedures and fairness ARE being carried out properly and people are STILL being convicted.  I think that is what you are saying but I'm concerned that one might read your article as a criticism of the appeals process.  While there are valid criticisms there, such as failure to respond when innocence is proven outright, the problem mainly lies with police and prosecutors and how even when they play by the rules and within the procedural safeguards, inocent people are going to jail.  Appellate courts are somewhat impotent by nature, and so we must focus on having accurate criminal trial courts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, You do not get the same appellate rights when you cop a plea.  This does actually make a lot of sense, though ,becuase otherwise you would be contensting evidence that was never admitted, or contesting the procedures of a trial that never occurred.  You can only appeal very limited things after reaching a deal.  </p>
<p>Radley, I think your articel is great, but you missed the real impact of the appellate system.  It is impossible and kind of silly to have appellate court re-try the case, and so their rightful role is to review the procedure and fairness of the overall trial and only overturn for problems of substance in extreme cases.  (Otherwise we no longer have a jury system, really.)  So that means then that the appellate courts aren&#8217;t overturning convinctions because the proceedures and fairness ARE being carried out properly and people are STILL being convicted.  I think that is what you are saying but I&#8217;m concerned that one might read your article as a criticism of the appeals process.  While there are valid criticisms there, such as failure to respond when innocence is proven outright, the problem mainly lies with police and prosecutors and how even when they play by the rules and within the procedural safeguards, inocent people are going to jail.  Appellate courts are somewhat impotent by nature, and so we must focus on having accurate criminal trial courts.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Flack</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74357</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Flack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74357</guid>
		<description>The problem is one of the legal systems most prized values, finality. The legal system aims to settle matters before it once and for all. One a court has made a decision that is meant to be be the end of it. They want the people who have benefited from a decision to have the assurance that that decision will not be overturned.

While people who are apart of it all know it is not infallible they believe that it should be treated as if it was. They want us to act as if the system cannot make a mistake if it follows the popper procedures. Thus they are quite prepared to overturn a verdict on procedural grounds but are very unwilling to admit that all the proper procedures can be followed and they can still come up with the wrong verdict. They are very unwilling to say that a jury simply got it wrong.

The adversary system also easily degenerates into a game with a game-player's ideas of fairness. They say that a defendant has had his chance and the rules of the game should be respected even if it leads to an injustice.

They are aiming for an impossible certainty and want us to act as if they can actually achieve it. The words finality and fairness reflect their aspirations. Finality should be abandoned. The pretense of its accomplishment comes at too high a price. Fairness should be stripped of its game-playing connotations. It should be reduced to lack of bias.educed to lack of bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is one of the legal systems most prized values, finality. The legal system aims to settle matters before it once and for all. One a court has made a decision that is meant to be be the end of it. They want the people who have benefited from a decision to have the assurance that that decision will not be overturned.</p>
<p>While people who are apart of it all know it is not infallible they believe that it should be treated as if it was. They want us to act as if the system cannot make a mistake if it follows the popper procedures. Thus they are quite prepared to overturn a verdict on procedural grounds but are very unwilling to admit that all the proper procedures can be followed and they can still come up with the wrong verdict. They are very unwilling to say that a jury simply got it wrong.</p>
<p>The adversary system also easily degenerates into a game with a game-player&#8217;s ideas of fairness. They say that a defendant has had his chance and the rules of the game should be respected even if it leads to an injustice.</p>
<p>They are aiming for an impossible certainty and want us to act as if they can actually achieve it. The words finality and fairness reflect their aspirations. Finality should be abandoned. The pretense of its accomplishment comes at too high a price. Fairness should be stripped of its game-playing connotations. It should be reduced to lack of bias.educed to lack of bias.</p>
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		<title>By: Knightgale</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74289</link>
		<dc:creator>Knightgale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 02:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74289</guid>
		<description>It is refreshing to see a column on this subject, thank you, been running a blog on injustices for juveniles, and many other support forums for "children, I have your page link added to mine as excellent material reference. Thank you for your efforts in bringing this vital subject to public awareness.

Justice Winds
http://justicewinds.blogspot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is refreshing to see a column on this subject, thank you, been running a blog on injustices for juveniles, and many other support forums for &#8220;children, I have your page link added to mine as excellent material reference. Thank you for your efforts in bringing this vital subject to public awareness.</p>
<p>Justice Winds<br />
<a href="http://justicewinds.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://justicewinds.blogspot.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: adam</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74258</link>
		<dc:creator>adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74258</guid>
		<description>In the Raw Data section of the latest Playboy magazine (March 2008), it says, "Since 2006 $8 million has been appropriated for the Justice Department to test the DNA of convicts who maintain their innocence.  So far, none of it has been spent."  I was wondering if maybe you could tell me why this is so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the Raw Data section of the latest Playboy magazine (March 2008), it says, &#8220;Since 2006 $8 million has been appropriated for the Justice Department to test the DNA of convicts who maintain their innocence.  So far, none of it has been spent.&#8221;  I was wondering if maybe you could tell me why this is so.</p>
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		<title>By: srr</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74231</link>
		<dc:creator>srr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74231</guid>
		<description>Latest viral.  Watch Baltimores finest assaulting 14 year olds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GgWrV8TcUc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Latest viral.  Watch Baltimores finest assaulting 14 year olds:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GgWrV8TcUc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GgWrV8TcUc</a></p>
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		<title>By: ClubMedSux</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74209</link>
		<dc:creator>ClubMedSux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74209</guid>
		<description>David-- The Northwestern University Center on Wrongful Convictions actually does a lot of work on false confessions and they've exonerated several people based on this fact.  You can check out more here: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/issues/causesandremedies/falseconfessions/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David&#8211; The Northwestern University Center on Wrongful Convictions actually does a lot of work on false confessions and they&#8217;ve exonerated several people based on this fact.  You can check out more here: <a href="http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/issues/causesandremedies/falseconfessions/" rel="nofollow">http://www.law.northwestern.edu/wrongfulconvictions/issues/causesandremedies/falseconfessions/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Grieb</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74204</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Grieb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74204</guid>
		<description>David;  I don't think they have any appeal rights.  I like to be wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David;  I don&#8217;t think they have any appeal rights.  I like to be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74201</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74201</guid>
		<description>Good work, Radley. One thing I wonder about is how many innocent people have gotten bullied into plea deals by the same type of "evidence" that these innocent people were convicted on?  Do people who've plead guilty have the same appeal rights as those who were convicted?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good work, Radley. One thing I wonder about is how many innocent people have gotten bullied into plea deals by the same type of &#8220;evidence&#8221; that these innocent people were convicted on?  Do people who&#8217;ve plead guilty have the same appeal rights as those who were convicted?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74198</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:51:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74198</guid>
		<description>Yeah, this is one area where I'm happy to "waste" money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, this is one area where I&#8217;m happy to &#8220;waste&#8221; money.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74188</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74188</guid>
		<description>Nice article.

One thing that might help get the stereotypical law and order types on the right side of this is to hammer home the point that every conviction of an innocent means the guilty party is still out there, and has gotten away with their crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article.</p>
<p>One thing that might help get the stereotypical law and order types on the right side of this is to hammer home the point that every conviction of an innocent means the guilty party is still out there, and has gotten away with their crime.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Pack</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74185</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Pack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2008/02/12/my-new-fox-column-9/#comment-74185</guid>
		<description>I have your column on MYYAHOO and always look forward to reading it.I don't always[but most times] agree with you but you stick to facts,not emotion.That's a rare gift in today's news.You defend personal choice and the rule of law.Many throw these aside for their own personal feelings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have your column on MYYAHOO and always look forward to reading it.I don&#8217;t always[but most times] agree with you but you stick to facts,not emotion.That&#8217;s a rare gift in today&#8217;s news.You defend personal choice and the rule of law.Many throw these aside for their own personal feelings.</p>
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