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	<title>Comments on: Lunch Links</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 05:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1</generator>
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		<title>By: Aliecat</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66667</link>
		<dc:creator>Aliecat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 14:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66667</guid>
		<description>That Garfield site was hilarious!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That Garfield site was hilarious!</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66639</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 02:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66639</guid>
		<description>The best thing about the coffee mug is that the page says "more durable version now available".  Would that it were true for the rights enumerated on the mug...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best thing about the coffee mug is that the page says &#8220;more durable version now available&#8221;.  Would that it were true for the rights enumerated on the mug&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sandcastle</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66632</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandcastle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66632</guid>
		<description>@ JJH: You are quite right, of course.  In responding to a "Lunch Links" post I was reluctant to go on at length about my philosophy, but I should have troubled myself to add some qualification to my claim, in particular regarding the basis of ownership.  

Even if you rebut the state's basis of ownership, however, it's not clear how to deal with that fact: while you can return a stolen watch to its rightful owner, you can't exactly "return" the sidewalk, with its rightful owners being so diffuse.  Converting state-owned property to private ownership would seem to require major systemic changes, which, in my view, should precede abrogating the state's (supposed) property rights all at once.    

@Zeb: No I don't think ownership gives the state ipso facto power to criminalize anything it wishes, but the responsibility of ownership (even illegitimate ownership, given the difficulties of making it legitimate) justifies exercising more state control over something than I would tolerate with regard to private property.  

So, for example, suppose you are an artist who specializes in arrows, and you want to have an exhibit for your famous "Study in Arrows."  It's your First Amendment right to put on such an exhibit at an art museum.   But suppose you decide you can reach the common people by painting your arrows all over the highway, allowing them to enjoy the arrows on their morning commute.  I think it would be right for the police to say, "no, you can't paint your strange arrows on the highway."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ JJH: You are quite right, of course.  In responding to a &#8220;Lunch Links&#8221; post I was reluctant to go on at length about my philosophy, but I should have troubled myself to add some qualification to my claim, in particular regarding the basis of ownership.  </p>
<p>Even if you rebut the state&#8217;s basis of ownership, however, it&#8217;s not clear how to deal with that fact: while you can return a stolen watch to its rightful owner, you can&#8217;t exactly &#8220;return&#8221; the sidewalk, with its rightful owners being so diffuse.  Converting state-owned property to private ownership would seem to require major systemic changes, which, in my view, should precede abrogating the state&#8217;s (supposed) property rights all at once.    </p>
<p>@Zeb: No I don&#8217;t think ownership gives the state ipso facto power to criminalize anything it wishes, but the responsibility of ownership (even illegitimate ownership, given the difficulties of making it legitimate) justifies exercising more state control over something than I would tolerate with regard to private property.  </p>
<p>So, for example, suppose you are an artist who specializes in arrows, and you want to have an exhibit for your famous &#8220;Study in Arrows.&#8221;  It&#8217;s your First Amendment right to put on such an exhibit at an art museum.   But suppose you decide you can reach the common people by painting your arrows all over the highway, allowing them to enjoy the arrows on their morning commute.  I think it would be right for the police to say, &#8220;no, you can&#8217;t paint your strange arrows on the highway.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66630</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66630</guid>
		<description>The Garfield comics are markedly improved. It reminds me of when a newspaper swapped the captions to the family Circus and the Far Side. Gary larson commented that both comics were notably improved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Garfield comics are markedly improved. It reminds me of when a newspaper swapped the captions to the family Circus and the Far Side. Gary larson commented that both comics were notably improved.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Newburn</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66628</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Newburn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66628</guid>
		<description>Someone should tell "freedomandshit.org" that liberteaser was SOOO 2-3 years ago...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone should tell &#8220;freedomandshit.org&#8221; that liberteaser was SOOO 2-3 years ago&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: JJH2</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66625</link>
		<dc:creator>JJH2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66625</guid>
		<description>Sandcastle: 

   Your contention regarding the owner of the sidewalk having the right to decide terms of access and use begs the question. Libertarianism, if it is going to be a functional (small-p) political theory at all, has to come to grips with a legitimate theory of property ownership. It is *not sufficient,* as I think many unsophisticated libertarians do, to waive your hands at every existing State-recognized property claim and assume de facto justification. 

   Now, you might find Lockean or radical-Rothbardian homesteading to be the most persuasive; or you may tend more towards the (Benjamin) Tucker(ite) view of the purpose of property. But in any case (and there are other options available), you have to justify a property claims in terms of some theory of property rights. 

   And to be frank, I don't see how the two principle doctrines of natural rights libertarianism: the Non-Aggression Principle and a consistent theory of libertarian property rights -- can possibly be squared with State Ownership of anything. All State action is coercive, and all State action rests, at its core, on the use or threat of violence. 

   All consistent and principles libertarians are necessarily anarchists, and the State doesn't own the sidewalks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandcastle: </p>
<p>   Your contention regarding the owner of the sidewalk having the right to decide terms of access and use begs the question. Libertarianism, if it is going to be a functional (small-p) political theory at all, has to come to grips with a legitimate theory of property ownership. It is *not sufficient,* as I think many unsophisticated libertarians do, to waive your hands at every existing State-recognized property claim and assume de facto justification. </p>
<p>   Now, you might find Lockean or radical-Rothbardian homesteading to be the most persuasive; or you may tend more towards the (Benjamin) Tucker(ite) view of the purpose of property. But in any case (and there are other options available), you have to justify a property claims in terms of some theory of property rights. </p>
<p>   And to be frank, I don&#8217;t see how the two principle doctrines of natural rights libertarianism: the Non-Aggression Principle and a consistent theory of libertarian property rights &#8212; can possibly be squared with State Ownership of anything. All State action is coercive, and all State action rests, at its core, on the use or threat of violence. </p>
<p>   All consistent and principles libertarians are necessarily anarchists, and the State doesn&#8217;t own the sidewalks.</p>
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		<title>By: Zeb</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66621</link>
		<dc:creator>Zeb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66621</guid>
		<description>So, the state should be able to criminalize any activity, whether it is against the law or not in other circumstances, if it is performed in public place that is owned by the state?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, the state should be able to criminalize any activity, whether it is against the law or not in other circumstances, if it is performed in public place that is owned by the state?</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66620</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66620</guid>
		<description>The remaining rights seem to me to be the ones the "evolving constitution" has discarded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The remaining rights seem to me to be the ones the &#8220;evolving constitution&#8221; has discarded.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandcastle</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66619</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandcastle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66619</guid>
		<description>@ Zeb: regarding your first point: if you have broken a law, the fact that you could have done something worse isn't exactly exculpatory.  The owner of the sidewalks (in this case the state) has the right to decide on what terms people can use them, and forbid obviously drunken people from using them.  I don't really have a problem with that, although I agree with your second point, as it's not clear why his license should be suspended for an offense as a pedestrian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Zeb: regarding your first point: if you have broken a law, the fact that you could have done something worse isn&#8217;t exactly exculpatory.  The owner of the sidewalks (in this case the state) has the right to decide on what terms people can use them, and forbid obviously drunken people from using them.  I don&#8217;t really have a problem with that, although I agree with your second point, as it&#8217;s not clear why his license should be suspended for an offense as a pedestrian.</p>
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		<title>By: Zeb</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66613</link>
		<dc:creator>Zeb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66613</guid>
		<description>There are so many things that could/should be fixed in the criminal justice system, but two things in Tucker's article jumped out at me for some reason.  
First, why should the public intoxication guy apologize to the judge?  He should have pointed out that he wasn't driving, which he probably could have done and gotten away with and he should have been commended for doing the right thing and walking home.
Second, what is with suspending people's licenses for things having nothing to do with driving?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are so many things that could/should be fixed in the criminal justice system, but two things in Tucker&#8217;s article jumped out at me for some reason.<br />
First, why should the public intoxication guy apologize to the judge?  He should have pointed out that he wasn&#8217;t driving, which he probably could have done and gotten away with and he should have been commended for doing the right thing and walking home.<br />
Second, what is with suspending people&#8217;s licenses for things having nothing to do with driving?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick T</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66605</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66605</guid>
		<description>I don't know who Mr. Tucker thinks should be doling out the punishment in criminal cases if it's NOT going to be the government.  Of course the system is horifically broken from small to large-scale crime, but private companies take pretty significant advantage of poor people as well (see credit cards), I don't know why he would assume private punishments would naturally be compassionate or reasonable.  (Don't you think Wal-mart, if completely handed the reigns, would have inflicted a fine on that woman to pad their bottom line as well?)

Moreover, part of the criminal justice system rests on the idea that it is the people handing out penalties for conduct they will not tolerate or disapprove of, and it requires a certain amount of inherent authority that I think can only come from government.  Plus at least with the government there is the -ever fleeting - possibility that the citizens will not like what they see and fix it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know who Mr. Tucker thinks should be doling out the punishment in criminal cases if it&#8217;s NOT going to be the government.  Of course the system is horifically broken from small to large-scale crime, but private companies take pretty significant advantage of poor people as well (see credit cards), I don&#8217;t know why he would assume private punishments would naturally be compassionate or reasonable.  (Don&#8217;t you think Wal-mart, if completely handed the reigns, would have inflicted a fine on that woman to pad their bottom line as well?)</p>
<p>Moreover, part of the criminal justice system rests on the idea that it is the people handing out penalties for conduct they will not tolerate or disapprove of, and it requires a certain amount of inherent authority that I think can only come from government.  Plus at least with the government there is the -ever fleeting - possibility that the citizens will not like what they see and fix it.</p>
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		<title>By: Brock</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66591</link>
		<dc:creator>Brock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66591</guid>
		<description>The Patriot Act has put our Third Amendment rights in jeopardy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Patriot Act has put our Third Amendment rights in jeopardy?</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66586</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/17/lunch-links-12/#comment-66586</guid>
		<description>Radley, based on the description the website gives it seems that the disappearing ones are the rights that the Patriot Act stripped away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Radley, based on the description the website gives it seems that the disappearing ones are the rights that the Patriot Act stripped away.</p>
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