Comments on: The New Professionalism http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/ It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do. Fri, 05 Sep 2008 07:16:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Leshrac http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65743 Leshrac Wed, 05 Dec 2007 19:30:04 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65743 Can I dstract a little? I shoot well enough within 30 yards to be confident I'll get several solid hits within my house. I hope it's not a cop, I suggest they call first or knock. At 2am I won't be waiting to ask questions either and if they've knocked out all my motion security lights by the doors I won't feel bad for very long when highly trained people attempt to use overwhelming force instead of good judgement. Marty #29. I think that's a typo AND it's true. "There are people that didn't become cops and got tickets one day." What that implies is what some people already know, cops generally don't get ticketed. That also goes for unpaid leave, disciplinary action, firing etc for poor performance. I know you would risk your career for outing some of the abuses you likely have already looked the other way over. Be honest about it at least with yourself even if you can't say it. The average citizen wants to trust the police, THEY make it hard to. Can I dstract a little? I shoot well enough within 30 yards to be confident I’ll get several solid hits within my house. I hope it’s not a cop, I suggest they call first or knock. At 2am I won’t be waiting to ask questions either and if they’ve knocked out all my motion security lights by the doors I won’t feel bad for very long when highly trained people attempt to use overwhelming force instead of good judgement.
Marty #29. I think that’s a typo AND it’s true. “There are people that didn’t become cops and got tickets one day.” What that implies is what some people already know, cops generally don’t get ticketed. That also goes for unpaid leave, disciplinary action, firing etc for poor performance. I know you would risk your career for outing some of the abuses you likely have already looked the other way over. Be honest about it at least with yourself even if you can’t say it. The average citizen wants to trust the police, THEY make it hard to.

]]> By: Billy Beck http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65729 Billy Beck Wed, 05 Dec 2007 18:12:56 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65729 A net.shrink rings in. Very impressive. Did you get your degree with your ISP deal? A net.shrink rings in. Very impressive.

Did you get your degree with your ISP deal?

]]> By: Lloyd http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65725 Lloyd Wed, 05 Dec 2007 17:50:11 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65725 How about this: You are nuts. You need to see a psychiatrist. How about this: You are nuts. You need to see a psychiatrist.

]]> By: Billy Beck http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65713 Billy Beck Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:44:42 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65713 Use plain English, Lloyd, and say what you mean like a man. Insinuations are for pussies. And you're as wrong as you can be. Use plain English, Lloyd, and say what you mean like a man.

Insinuations are for pussies.

And you’re as wrong as you can be.

]]> By: Lloyd http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65689 Lloyd Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:25:40 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65689 Billy Beck- Use your imagination. If that doesn't help, try a mirror. Billy Beck-
Use your imagination. If that doesn’t help, try a mirror.

]]> By: Robert http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65682 Robert Wed, 05 Dec 2007 07:12:22 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65682 Sure Marty, these guys with thousands of posts on "cop forums" are probably just there lurking and hoping to give cops a bad name. Probably because of a weed bust. If I wasn't sure you were a cop before, your response to that comment would have confirmed it. Not only that, it proved my point about arguing with a cop... they're never wrong, you are always wrong, no matter what. I do wonder what happens when they argue amongst themselved though... oh, that's right, the "brotherhood" forbids it. Dicks and tools is about right for people who take a job that involves driving around all day looking for petty infractions of a draconian law system in order to turn a buck for the city (or county, or whatever). The guys in the videos posted on this blog are, in my opinion, criminals for what they do. It wouldn't take too many firings and prosecutions for the police to be quite a bit more careful about when they decide to taser someone. One thing to keep in mind, I have yet to see one video posted on this blog in which the police officer couldn't have calmly defused the situation. I thought that police were trained to defuse tense situations... dicks and tools indeed. Sure Marty, these guys with thousands of posts on “cop forums” are probably just there lurking and hoping to give cops a bad name. Probably because of a weed bust. If I wasn’t sure you were a cop before, your response to that comment would have confirmed it. Not only that, it proved my point about arguing with a cop… they’re never wrong, you are always wrong, no matter what. I do wonder what happens when they argue amongst themselved though… oh, that’s right, the “brotherhood” forbids it.

Dicks and tools is about right for people who take a job that involves driving around all day looking for petty infractions of a draconian law system in order to turn a buck for the city (or county, or whatever). The guys in the videos posted on this blog are, in my opinion, criminals for what they do. It wouldn’t take too many firings and prosecutions for the police to be quite a bit more careful about when they decide to taser someone.

One thing to keep in mind, I have yet to see one video posted on this blog in which the police officer couldn’t have calmly defused the situation. I thought that police were trained to defuse tense situations… dicks and tools indeed.

]]> By: crack http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65673 crack Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:42:59 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65673 In the Utah incident, if the trooper was worried that there was something dangerous in the car he's lucky he was wrong. If the wife had been someone inclined to cause harm to the trooper she could have easily. She was in view of him before he knew she was there. Also, his escalation could have caused an escalation by the other party in the car easily. He did not handle that situation well and he is lucky. If he'd have shot that guy, and the wife was just a wife with a gun it could have ended very badly for him. Escalation was a poor decision. In the Utah incident, if the trooper was worried that there was something dangerous in the car he’s lucky he was wrong. If the wife had been someone inclined to cause harm to the trooper she could have easily. She was in view of him before he knew she was there. Also, his escalation could have caused an escalation by the other party in the car easily. He did not handle that situation well and he is lucky. If he’d have shot that guy, and the wife was just a wife with a gun it could have ended very badly for him. Escalation was a poor decision.

]]> By: Billy Beck http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65666 Billy Beck Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:25:21 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65666 Like who, Lloyd? I might be interested to read "Charles Bronson wannabe Rand-roids who, in their fantasy lives, imagine themselves taking on the Crips and the Bloods single-handedly," just to see what one looks like. Got any cites on that? Like who, Lloyd? I might be interested to read “Charles Bronson wannabe Rand-roids who, in their fantasy lives, imagine themselves taking on the Crips and the Bloods single-handedly,” just to see what one looks like.

Got any cites on that?

]]> By: Billy Beck http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65661 Billy Beck Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:13:17 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65661 "Try to keep it respectful, Beck." I do, Radley. I *never* give it away. People earn it from me. Your move. “Try to keep it respectful, Beck.”

I do, Radley.

I *never* give it away. People earn it from me.

Your move.

]]> By: Lloyd http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65660 Lloyd Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:58:45 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65660 Marty- I have had guns pointed at me, in a somewhat different venue than what you're used to -- I was 4 years active duty US Army. I didn't really care for the experience. It's something that playing cowboys and indians with the neighbor kids doesn't prepare you for. You're right: you don't know how you'll handle it until it's real and in your face. Billy Beck- When I mentioned "random nuts shooting up the place," I was talking about the Charles Bronson wannabe Rand-roids who, in their fantasy lives, imagine themselves taking on the Crips and the Bloods single-handedly. Marty-
I have had guns pointed at me, in a somewhat different venue than what you’re used to — I was 4 years active duty US Army. I didn’t really care for the experience. It’s something that playing cowboys and indians with the neighbor kids doesn’t prepare you for. You’re right: you don’t know how you’ll handle it until it’s real and in your face.

Billy Beck-
When I mentioned “random nuts shooting up the place,” I was talking about the Charles Bronson wannabe Rand-roids who, in their fantasy lives, imagine themselves taking on the Crips and the Bloods single-handedly.

]]> By: Radley Balko http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65659 Radley Balko Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:54:54 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65659 Try to keep it respectful, Beck. I've spoken to Marty on the phone a couple of times. We don't agree on everything, but he is an ally on much of the stuff I write about. I also think it's helpful and encouraging to have active police officers reading and participating on this site. I share your frustration at some of these stories, believe me. But dialogue is helpful. I don't want an echo chamber. Please do challenge and debate him. But "go fuck yourself" doesn't really get us anywhere. Try to keep it respectful, Beck. I’ve spoken to Marty on the phone a couple of times. We don’t agree on everything, but he is an ally on much of the stuff I write about. I also think it’s helpful and encouraging to have active police officers reading and participating on this site.

I share your frustration at some of these stories, believe me. But dialogue is helpful. I don’t want an echo chamber. Please do challenge and debate him. But “go fuck yourself” doesn’t really get us anywhere.

]]> By: Billy Beck http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65657 Billy Beck Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:28:40 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65657 Look around you, Lloyd. There is now more law & order than ever before in American history, and you're the one who was constrained to mention tweekers shooting the place up. You don't have any room to lecture anyone about "AnCapistan" while America looks like it does right now. My question to you: can you be a man and admit reality? Marty: "I also love the target shooters that talk about how they would handle being shot at. How about just having a gun pointed in their face, standing alone in the projects." *Now*, your presumption is offensive, sir. I've been there, so kindly get off it or go fuck yourself. Look around you, Lloyd. There is now more law & order than ever before in American history, and you’re the one who was constrained to mention tweekers shooting the place up.

You don’t have any room to lecture anyone about “AnCapistan” while America looks like it does right now.

My question to you: can you be a man and admit reality?

Marty: “I also love the target shooters that talk about how they would handle being shot at. How about just having a gun pointed in their face, standing alone in the projects.”

*Now*, your presumption is offensive, sir. I’ve been there, so kindly get off it or go fuck yourself.

]]> By: code red http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65656 code red Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:28:06 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65656 Marty said, "I am BTW a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment and self defense." Sorry for the language Marty, and correct me if I'm wrong, but how the hell can you claim this while working in NYC for an organization that is doing the exact opposite of your statement??? Knowing what we both know about the founders reasoning for specifically including the 2nd Amendment, doesn't this strike you as "evil"? I could respect you if you were a gun-control raving loony moonbat, at least than you would be honest to what you BELIEVE is right. Marty said, “I am BTW a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment and self defense.”

Sorry for the language Marty, and correct me if I’m wrong, but how the hell can you claim this while working in NYC for an organization that is doing the exact opposite of your statement???

Knowing what we both know about the founders reasoning for specifically including the 2nd Amendment, doesn’t this strike you as “evil”?

I could respect you if you were a gun-control raving loony moonbat, at least than you would be honest to what you BELIEVE is right.

]]> By: code red http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65654 code red Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:17:45 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65654 Lloyd, If the state wasn't so damn hungry to disarm "civilians" the tweaker shooting a .22 wouldn't last long enough for police to get there before the blood stopped flowing, let alone the time to organize and dress a SWAT team in cool tactical gear. Leaving citizens defenseless is a tactical decision all governments attempt. First, it fosters citizens like you who actually believe WE NEED THEM. Second, when the time comes it leaves citizens no reasonable means to take our Rights back. (A hurdle freedom seeking slaves may well have to overcome... again). Lloyd,

If the state wasn’t so damn hungry to disarm “civilians” the tweaker shooting a .22 wouldn’t last long enough for police to get there before the blood stopped flowing, let alone the time to organize and dress a SWAT team in cool tactical gear.

Leaving citizens defenseless is a tactical decision all governments attempt. First, it fosters citizens like you who actually believe WE NEED THEM. Second, when the time comes it leaves citizens no reasonable means to take our Rights back. (A hurdle freedom seeking slaves may well have to overcome… again).

]]> By: Marty http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65653 Marty Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:08:02 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65653 Lloyd, I don't take it personally. Just pointing it out. Yea, I know that my posting on these issues is tough on this forum because I as a Conservative see the need for order and police and the libertarians here could do without the police in any situation. Yes Lloyd you would be amazed how many* libertarian writers* and readers call 911 in lesser situations than gun fire. It is quite humerous. I also love the target shooters that talk about how they would handle being shot at. How about just having a gun pointed in their face, standing alone in the projects. I am BTW a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment and self defense. It's not the fear of the person having a gun *only* that prevents a shooter from taking the shot. It is also the fear of jail and cops getting them later. Lloyd, I don’t take it personally. Just pointing it out. Yea, I know that my posting on these issues is tough on this forum because I as a Conservative see the need for order and police and the libertarians here could do without the police in any situation.

Yes Lloyd you would be amazed how many* libertarian writers* and readers call 911 in lesser situations than gun fire. It is quite humerous.

I also love the target shooters that talk about how they would handle being shot at. How about just having a gun pointed in their face, standing alone in the projects.

I am BTW a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment and self defense.

It’s not the fear of the person having a gun *only* that prevents a shooter from taking the shot. It is also the fear of jail and cops getting them later.

]]> By: Lloyd http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65652 Lloyd Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:41:55 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65652 Billy Beck- I'd feel so much safer in AnCapistan, with random nuts shooting up the place. Billy Beck-

I’d feel so much safer in AnCapistan, with random nuts shooting up the place.

]]> By: Billy Beck http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65651 Billy Beck Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:33:16 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65651 "There’s nothing you can say that will make them like you." It's not about liking him, Lloyd, and anyone who would try to reduce the matter to something like that is just being myopic. "...some tweaker was shooting out car windows in their neighborhood with a .22." Left to my own judgment without the prospect of cops beating my door down, I'd be shooting *back*. "911"? Listen: speaking only for myself here, I can do without the third-rate comedy. “There’s nothing you can say that will make them like you.”

It’s not about liking him, Lloyd, and anyone who would try to reduce the matter to something like that is just being myopic.

“…some tweaker was shooting out car windows in their neighborhood with a .22.”

Left to my own judgment without the prospect of cops beating my door down, I’d be shooting *back*.

“911″? Listen: speaking only for myself here, I can do without the third-rate comedy.

]]> By: Lloyd http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65648 Lloyd Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:26:29 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65648 Marty- You have to realize that a lot of the people posting here think the world would be a better place if there weren't any laws, cops, taxes, etc. There's nothing you can say that will make them like you. It's not about you. Don't take their guff personally. I guess I'm a soft-core libertarian. I think society needs some laws (some codified limits to human behavior), and some people to enforce them (let's call them 'police officers'). I happen to think there are too many laws and there could be fewer cops. We can discuss things like the 'War on Drugs' (I'm against it) or police misconduct (everybody's against it), but I wonder how many of my fellow libertarians would NOT call 911 if, for instance, some tweaker was shooting out car windows in their neighborhood with a .22. I certainly would. And I'd be glad to see a black & white show up. Marty-
You have to realize that a lot of the people posting here think the world would be a better place if there weren’t any laws, cops, taxes, etc. There’s nothing you can say that will make them like you. It’s not about you. Don’t take their guff personally.

I guess I’m a soft-core libertarian. I think society needs some laws (some codified limits to human behavior), and some people to enforce them (let’s call them ‘police officers’). I happen to think there are too many laws and there could be fewer cops.

We can discuss things like the ‘War on Drugs’ (I’m against it) or police misconduct (everybody’s against it), but I wonder how many of my fellow libertarians would NOT call 911 if, for instance, some tweaker was shooting out car windows in their neighborhood with a .22. I certainly would. And I’d be glad to see a black & white show up.

]]> By: Marty http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65644 Marty Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:10:06 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65644 Billy they are not small to those involved and should be handled based on priciples. I meant they are small in the number of incidents compared to interactions with the police each day. Draw a distinction where? Someone said a cop should be charged with assault and in some cases they have. When assault is appropriate. Assault is a penal law term that's all I meant. You can't charge somebody with assault if they did not commit assault. Or else we could charge Murder for using a taser. Cops should be and have been charged with assault. Billy they are not small to those involved and should be handled based on priciples. I meant they are small in the number of incidents compared to interactions with the police each day.

Draw a distinction where? Someone said a cop should be charged with assault and in some cases they have. When assault is appropriate. Assault is a penal law term that’s all I meant. You can’t charge somebody with assault if they did not commit assault. Or else we could charge Murder for using a taser.

Cops should be and have been charged with assault.

]]> By: Billy Beck http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65642 Billy Beck Wed, 05 Dec 2007 00:00:54 +0000 http://www.theagitator.com/2007/12/03/the-new-professionalism-8/#comment-65642 "It’s funny how hard you try to make me seem arogant." That is not the point at all, Marty. The point is about a crucial distinction between what's law and what's right. And I've yet to see you draw that distinction. "...which makes these incidents very small in comparison." To *whom*? You can think them "small" is you want to. I, for one, think about this stuff in terms of *principles*, and that makes all the difference. “It’s funny how hard you try to make me seem arogant.”

That is not the point at all, Marty. The point is about a crucial distinction between what’s law and what’s right. And I’ve yet to see you draw that distinction.

“…which makes these incidents very small in comparison.”

To *whom*?

You can think them “small” is you want to. I, for one, think about this stuff in terms of *principles*, and that makes all the difference.

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