TheAgitator.com
There’s Something About Mary
Friday, October 15th, 2004I still think Kerry was a schmuck for invoking Mary Cheney during the debate. But Atrios raises a good point. Why are Lynne and Dick Cheney so upset with Kerry? Sure he mentioned their daughter to score cheap political points. But what he said was complimentary.
Were are her parents’ condemnations of those within their own party, and among the Bush/Cheney ticket’s biggest supporters, who consider Mary Cheney’s very existence an abomination?
I don’t even seem to remember the Cheneys condemning Alan Keyes — a move that wouldn’t even cost them any poltiical capital, given that the guy’s polling at about 20% — when he called their daughter a “selfish hedonist.”
Agreed. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. Andrew Sullivan has had a lot to say about all this. Since he’s an openly gay conservative, I think his viewpoint holds more weight than most.
Based on Cheney’s response to this, as well as his recent responses when asked about his opinion of the FMA, I think we can safely infer two things about his personality.
1) He thinks his family’s private life should remain private, and it pisses him off when his political opponents don’t respect that.
2) He’s a company man, saying that “the President sets the policy for this administration”. While it is abundantly clear that he does not personally support the FMA, he will not publicly disagree with the President.
These sound like pretty basic, old school values to me, indicitive of his generation more than anything else. I don’t particularly like Cheney, but it’s hard for me not to respect the delicate balancing act he appears to have been forced into on this.
very well said brian.
Am I the only one that sees nothing wrong with what Kerry said? This Presidential campaign has been filled with repeated lies and exaggerations and nobody says a thing about it (at least in the mainstream media, I know this is not the case at places like this website), but Kerry makes a truthful and even complimentary statement and everyone goes crazy. When people start calling the candidates on all the bullshit statements they make then I’ll start to believe their indignation. Right now it just sounds like partisan attacks coming from people on the Right who don’t want to believe that Cheney has a gay daughter.
What is complimentary about speculating on how Mary Cheney feels about her own sexuality? I think it would be equally offensive for Kerry to point out that the Bush twins are heterosexual — either way, it is highly inappopriate for him to publicly talk about another man’s daughter’s sexual preferences. Involvement in politics does not negate social boundaries, nor does it make a candidate’s family “fair game,” as if they were animals being hunted. If you want to speculate on Mary Cheney’s feelings, then assume that she would rather not be known as “the lesbian daughter” since she has an entire life that doesn’t revolve around which gender turns her on.
Ben, the point is that nothing complimentary needed said. He could have said what he said in the debate without naming a lesbian. Or naming Ellen Degeneres or Rosy O’Donnell. He, and Edwards first, both picked out Mary CHeney for no other reason than to be retarded little boys shouting
“Your daughter is gay! Your daughter is gay! Hey America, the VP’s daughter is gay! Not that there is anything wrong with that.”
They both make my skin crawl. I don’t particularly care for W. But Kerry and Edwards are so slimey. And the actions of Democrats around this country, from stealing signs, to break-ins, to registration fraud, to shootings, to throwing slurs at veterans, beating up republicans, calling for people to pre-emptively shout about intimidation even if it never occurred, are without class.
I refuse to be counted among them. Even if I agreed with them, I would not be willing to be known as a democrat. They have made it a shameful thing to be.
Thank you Chris.
As “hateful” and “intolerant” as the republicans are purported to be, I have yet to see them engage in any of the types of behavior you mentioned (although I’m sure somebody is going to dig something up to contradict me).
Most of the hate and intolerance I’ve experienced in the last four years has come “progressive,” “open-minded,” and “tolerant” liberals.
As far as the gay comment goes, it doesn’t matter how it was presented, it was still a cheap shot at a family member who has no part in (as far as I know) the Bush campaign.
Kerry and Edwards are slimey, and will say anything if they think it will score them more votes.
Chris you are aware that the Republicans have been accused of the same things?
Neither party is without blame.
Mary Cheney is working on her dad’s campaign. I believe she is pretty high up in the organization. She is a legitimate political target. Kerry/Edwards could have said MUCH worse.
You know I agree with Chris on this. Also, no one mentions that Kerry and his people said Cheney’s daughter is fair game. Why? Because she is the daughter of the vp? Kerry could have simply answered the question. I am not a father, but come on now. So many people are bickering over whether or not Kerry was being underhanded or not. I don’t care. There is no point of discussion on that issue. Cheney has a right to not want his daughter as a discussion point on a nationally televised debate which every major network is airing. Just answer the damn questions, which by the way neither candidate knows how to do in the first place. Ugh.
I am aware they are accused of registration fraud. I am not talking about the party. I am talking about the type of people that consider themselves part of the party.
I did not see 1000+ conservatives get arrested protesting in Boston at the DNC, I saw that in NY at the RNC. Calls for violence. Tricking bomb dogs. so on and so forth.
I have not seen a news story about a drive by shooting at a Democratic election office, they shot at the Republican office.
I have not seen news stories about crowds breaking in and terrorizing people in Democratic campaign headquarters, but I have seen them breaking into Republic offices.
I have not seen any news stories about Democrats being beat up at concerts or other public gatherings for a Bush Cheney sign, but I have seen Republicans beaten.
I have not seen multiple news stories about people stealing yard signs from Democratic supporters, but I have seen it done to the Republicans.
It goes on and on. Not all Democrats are that way I am sure…but they are in the same club as these violence mongers. I club I won’t be a part of.
Go from blog to blog. I any thread, the first post that is filled with hatred and insults will USUALLY come from a Democrat. The people that make the news for that party are not good people.
And the leaders of the party do nothing to condemn it…therefore they support it. Count me out, Dems. If you are who your friends are, you are an un-ethical, violent bunch.
Chris writes: “Ben, the point is that nothing complimentary needed said. He could have said what he said in the debate without naming a lesbian. Or naming Ellen Degeneres or Rosy O’Donnell. ”
Well, no. Not at all.
The question in the debate was whether being gay is a choice.
Seems to me, pointing out that the Cheneys, of all people, have a lesbian daughter goes right to the heart of that.
She probably wasn’t raised in a permissive liberal environment. She probably didn’t have much exposure to gay people growing up. She’s working for her father’s campaign, so being a lesbian probably wasn’t some kind of rebellion against the family.
Why would a daughter of the conservative Cheneys, from conservative Wyoming, *choose* to be gay?
She’s actually a very good case study in why being gay is not a choice.
Brian writes: “1) He thinks his family’s private life should remain private, and it pisses him off when his political opponents don’t respect that.”
But such private family matters are apparently okay when it comes to amending the Constitution.
Chris, perhaps you haven’t heard or seen these things, but I have. first hand
Example 1. A group of 12 seated in a restaurant demanded that the Manager remove all the Heinz ketchup bottles from the tables. When their request was denied on the basis of “this is the only ketchup we have”, the group swore never to return and left a $1 tip for their server.
Example 2. A woman comes into a nursery out in the texas countryside and demands to know who’s responsible for the Kerry/Edwards sign outside the gate and down the road. She is told that the land does not belong to the nursery. She swears to take her business elsewhere until the sign is taken down.
Example 3 (for the other side now). A woman becomes angry and emotional when introduced to the Laura Bush variety of a flowering plant. When asked what her problem is, she replies that she hates GWB. Well, lady, she only married the guy. She’s not the President. Not good enough. Woman storms off.
Example 4 (back to the right now). A family refuses to buy Heinz ketchup “on principle”. When asked what Teresa Heinz ever did to them, they return with a blank stare.
And of course I know a few people who’s Dem signs have been removed from their lawns or otherwise defaced.
Those are just the examples from my own experience and those of my immediate family. Really, Chris. There are unreasonable, nasty and violently angry people on both sides of this fence.
The fact is, Mary Cheney IS involved in the campaign, and she did extensive campaigning in the 2000 election among gay groups. Part of her pitch was that while Bush/Cheney don’t approve of the “gay lifestyle”, they would absolutely not try to legislate their morality. By calling for changing the Constitution, Bush made Mary a liar.
Chris-
Equating the thuggish behaviors of some with the entire Democratic party is the same if I said I would never vote Republican because of abortion-clinic bombers. Taking examples of the worst people on either side and using that to paint the rest is asinine.
The problem with Kerry’s remark is not arguable using logic. It’s a gut level thing. Cheney family matters are theirs to talk about if they want to. But they do not belong to the rest of us to talk about for our own purposes. They, in particular, do not belong to John Kerry to use in a bid for votes. His intent may have been decent (though I wonder), but his judgement was simply ghastly!
To clarify my earlier comment, my point was that with all the crap and lies that come out of both candidates mouths I think this is a silly thing to make such a big deal out of.
Jon H–
Did you read my entire comment?
Roy writes: ” Cheney family matters are theirs to talk about if they want to. But they do not belong to the rest of us to talk about for our own purposes.”
This implies that Mary Cheney’s sexuality is something embarrasing to the family, or something they ought to be ashamed of, like if Kerry mentioned a (hypothetical) crazy Nazi aunt of Cheney’s, or that Lynne suffers from recurrent yeast infections.
Does anyone here believe that John Kerry’s intent was sincere? Seriously?
I think the outrage comes not from the comments, but from the transparency of the intent behind them.
And, choosing not to buy Heinz ketchup because you disagree with the company’s owners (or not to attend a Texas Rangers game, if GW still owned a share), is a perfectly legitimate response.
Shooting into campaign headquarters is not (obviously, neither are abortion clinic bombings).
How come this question was even asked?
What does this have to do with running the free world?
Usually comments from the readers on this website are much more astute then what is currently being displayed.
While Kerry’s comment came from the gut and whether you disagree with it or not, the VP has brought his daughter’s sexual identity into the public domain on his own accord. It was said before and just because Kerry said it doesn’t make it any worse or better.
HOWEVER, EVERYTHING AFTERWARDS IS PLANNED AND STAGED. The RNC took live polling during the debate and realized that people, in general, winced when Kerry mentioned Cheney’s daughter. On a night that W didn’t change the momentum this was the one thing they had. Stump speeches by Cheney and his wife were PREWRITTEN. They knew that this issue had legs and that it would continue only if they kept it in the limelight. Think about it, would we be talking about, if Mrs. Cheney didn’t express her STAGED outrage. No, we’d move on and ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES. If you really want to be outraged, how about using your own daughter’s sexual identity to keep voter’s off your “failed” administration and policies. That is more shameless than what Kerry actually said.
I read on FoxNews a comment by a viewer that because Kerry mentioned the VP’s daughter, they are now voting for Bush. Anyone who decides their vote on this issue must be earning a pretty good salary, enjoying job security and are confident we won’t get hit again by terrorists. Let’s move on people and not play into this STAGED BS.
Welcome to the society with no true respect for each other.
Some can hold to principles some do not, be wary of those who do not.
“The problem with Kerry’s remark is not arguable using logic. It’s a gut level thing.”
Response:
“If any decisions were to be made by using reason and evidence, political decisions would have to be among them – but Americans generally don’t do that. Only a small percentage appear to have a coherent political philosophy, consistent beliefs, and an ability to explain what they decide. The rest go by gut instinct – they’re inconsistent and react poorly. (Source)
—
“[President Bush], [Military historian Victor Davis] Hanson says, is going with his ‘gut instinct that what he’s doing is not only right, but is going to work — and he is going to see it through.’” (Source)
—
”
Sometime during the 2000 campaign, I heard an ordinary citizen say, ‘I trust George Bush â?? he has good instincts.’ Itâ??s a comment heard frequently in this campaign as well.
“Anyone with a modicum of critical sense is then compelled to ask: ‘How do we know that he has “good instincts”?’
“‘I dunno, I just feel that he does.’ (I.e., ‘instinct’).
‘But why should we accept your “feeling”?’
Well, you can see where this is going: nowhere.” (Source)
—
My two cents.
Comments by several of you intimating that there may be something that the cheneys are ashamed of, miss the point. Which of you, if you had a daughter who was homosexual, would be content to see her lifestyle paraded around by anyone who wanted to use it to make a pont? When (and if) Mary Cheney herself puts her lifestyle into the campaign, then she’s fair game to talk about. But not before. The fact that she works for the campaign does not confer permission to make her private life a public political football.
Do unto others…
And to John H. I make my voting decisions on well reasoned evaluation of the candidates, their positions, their history and political record, and my own opinion about where I think the country should go. Not emotion. I realize that others do not, but can’t do anything about it.
Now the rest of you please relaize that a parent confronting the homosexuality of their child will never be free of a wide range of emotion about it. Love and support for the child not withstanding.
Roy writes: “When (and if) Mary Cheney herself puts her lifestyle into the campaign, then she’s fair game to talk about. But not before. The fact that she works for the campaign does not confer permission to make her private life a public political football.”
The GOP has made the private lives of millions their own public political football.
Ed, everyone should go to Andrew Sullivan’s site and read his take on this issue. He shows that the reaction
of most is based on a disdain for homo-sexuality. The Cheny’s appear to be ashamed of their daughter’s lifestyle. Year’s ago, it was mental illness, alcoholism, etc. This incident is an opportunity for everyone to question their views about homosexuals, rights, and predjudice.
The most profound question I was ever ask about this was: “When did you chose to like girls?”
This is an issue about rights.
Alan Keyes’ daughter Maya is a lesbian, according to entries on her own website. There’s a clear dichotomy between the way Cheney has handled his daughter’s homosexuality and what Keyes has done. But I do hope that Mary Cheney got more satisfactory answers from her father about his views before she agreed to join the campaign than the answers he’s given publicly.
Complimentary or not. He used something that was not his to be used. Presumption is often indicative of a lack of respect or at the least an abundance of immaturity. In either case, Kerry is a shmoe.