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	<title>Comments on: Hurricanes and Broken Windows</title>
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	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/</link>
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		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62292</link>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62290</link>
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		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62289</link>
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		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62288</link>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2005 16:26:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Joker</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62287</link>
		<dc:creator>Joker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=4694#comment-62287</guid>
		<description>Dr. T - name one person or private sector organization that invests its money in non-productive ways.  Factoring in risk/reward ratios of course....;-)
Even if you buy shares of the most boring stock you are effectively buying a low risk but low return investment, from someone else who perhaps will buy a Porsche with your cash.  So then did you or did you not productively invest your money?  ;-)

On broken windows:
The bottom line is that creating assets builds wealth, you know, 1+1=2.  Destroying assets and then building them again is a zero sum game (if you are lucky), you know, 1-1+1=1.

The biggest problem is that this reasoning escapes all politicians, the odd Nobel laureate, and the Nobel Prize committee.  In itself, this should be a criminal offence, I think, because promoting the broken window model of economic stimulation is akin to running a pyramid scheme or some other fraudulent activity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. T - name one person or private sector organization that invests its money in non-productive ways.  Factoring in risk/reward ratios of course&#8230;.;-)<br />
Even if you buy shares of the most boring stock you are effectively buying a low risk but low return investment, from someone else who perhaps will buy a Porsche with your cash.  So then did you or did you not productively invest your money?  <img src='http://www.theagitator.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
On broken windows:<br />
The bottom line is that creating assets builds wealth, you know, 1+1=2.  Destroying assets and then building them again is a zero sum game (if you are lucky), you know, 1-1+1=1.</p>
<p>The biggest problem is that this reasoning escapes all politicians, the odd Nobel laureate, and the Nobel Prize committee.  In itself, this should be a criminal offence, I think, because promoting the broken window model of economic stimulation is akin to running a pyramid scheme or some other fraudulent activity.</p>
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		<title>By: fyodor</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62286</link>
		<dc:creator>fyodor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Except for roach's soak-the-foreigners scenario, which is kind of another matter, all these theories assume irrational behavior.  Now granted, irrational behavior happens, and thus accidents can bring unexpected benefit (gee it feels good when I stop hitting myself with a hammer!).  But to ever &lt;i&gt;expect&lt;/i&gt; irrational behavior across a &lt;i&gt;large sample size&lt;/i&gt; such that we can expect &lt;i&gt;net&lt;/i&gt; benefit from accidents or disasters over a large area is, well...irrational!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except for roach&#8217;s soak-the-foreigners scenario, which is kind of another matter, all these theories assume irrational behavior.  Now granted, irrational behavior happens, and thus accidents can bring unexpected benefit (gee it feels good when I stop hitting myself with a hammer!).  But to ever <i>expect</i> irrational behavior across a <i>large sample size</i> such that we can expect <i>net</i> benefit from accidents or disasters over a large area is, well&#8230;irrational!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62285</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=4694#comment-62285</guid>
		<description>All insurance really is is speculation on the unexpected.  It's inverse betting - you pay in hoping never to win big, since that usually means catastrophe.  The insurance company also hopes you don't win big, since they've invested all premiums and kept the profit.  The less claimed, the better for everyone in some weird sense.

But in terms of creating wealth, it's best not spent by anyone.  The insurance company of course would rather keep the wealth in their control, but by investing it broadly it does support wealth creation.  

This is not to say insurance is a bad idea, though.  It's unfortunately necessary unless people are willing to absorb all costs for catastrophic events.  Most can't. 

If a hurricane destroys your house, your place of employment, and eliminates your possessions, you have no wealth and, temporarily at least, no source of income.  If this situation brings on a heart attack and you equally have no health insurance, well, you're kinda screwed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All insurance really is is speculation on the unexpected.  It&#8217;s inverse betting - you pay in hoping never to win big, since that usually means catastrophe.  The insurance company also hopes you don&#8217;t win big, since they&#8217;ve invested all premiums and kept the profit.  The less claimed, the better for everyone in some weird sense.</p>
<p>But in terms of creating wealth, it&#8217;s best not spent by anyone.  The insurance company of course would rather keep the wealth in their control, but by investing it broadly it does support wealth creation.  </p>
<p>This is not to say insurance is a bad idea, though.  It&#8217;s unfortunately necessary unless people are willing to absorb all costs for catastrophic events.  Most can&#8217;t. </p>
<p>If a hurricane destroys your house, your place of employment, and eliminates your possessions, you have no wealth and, temporarily at least, no source of income.  If this situation brings on a heart attack and you equally have no health insurance, well, you&#8217;re kinda screwed.</p>
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		<title>By: David Weisman</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62284</link>
		<dc:creator>David Weisman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Sep 2004 05:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=4694#comment-62284</guid>
		<description>The money was invested elsewhere, but not necessarily creating wealth for the economy in any meaningful sense.  Suppose the money was invested in the stock market.  Insurance company sells stock.  I suppose you want to argue the market maker will take money invested elsewhere and ... but it's far from clear that the end result will be fewer factories or services in the economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The money was invested elsewhere, but not necessarily creating wealth for the economy in any meaningful sense.  Suppose the money was invested in the stock market.  Insurance company sells stock.  I suppose you want to argue the market maker will take money invested elsewhere and &#8230; but it&#8217;s far from clear that the end result will be fewer factories or services in the economy.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62283</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Sep 2004 04:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=4694#comment-62283</guid>
		<description>What if the old window was cracked long before it got broken?  Does replacing it with a perfectly good pane improve the economy?

Observing Florida hurricanes and reconstruction first hand since Donna in 1960, one thing has always stood out to me: most of the new stuff is an improvement over the things it replaces.  

When Cleo and Dora ganged up to reduce the Duval County coastline to rubble in 1964, the result was not just a recovery for the nearly blighted beaches but a complete revitalization.  Houses built in Dade county to replace the ones that Andrew blew away are stronger, now actually being built to code in many cases.

To rebuild a shattered deck is probably a good example of the broken window principle, but adding the jacuzzi is new production (and it's not likely the insurance company or the government paid for it.)

Restoration after storms is nearly always more than just fixing what broke.  In most of the cases I've seen, communities improve beyond their previous condition, and I suspect that's good for the overall economy, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if the old window was cracked long before it got broken?  Does replacing it with a perfectly good pane improve the economy?</p>
<p>Observing Florida hurricanes and reconstruction first hand since Donna in 1960, one thing has always stood out to me: most of the new stuff is an improvement over the things it replaces.  </p>
<p>When Cleo and Dora ganged up to reduce the Duval County coastline to rubble in 1964, the result was not just a recovery for the nearly blighted beaches but a complete revitalization.  Houses built in Dade county to replace the ones that Andrew blew away are stronger, now actually being built to code in many cases.</p>
<p>To rebuild a shattered deck is probably a good example of the broken window principle, but adding the jacuzzi is new production (and it&#8217;s not likely the insurance company or the government paid for it.)</p>
<p>Restoration after storms is nearly always more than just fixing what broke.  In most of the cases I&#8217;ve seen, communities improve beyond their previous condition, and I suspect that&#8217;s good for the overall economy, too.</p>
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		<title>By: roach</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62282</link>
		<dc:creator>roach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Sep 2004 03:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=4694#comment-62282</guid>
		<description>I still think it can be a net positive for America depending on how much of the total (invested) insurance pie is held by foreigners.  I don't think foreign welfare should be taken into account by American public policy in measuring whether a particular course of action--or random event--is wealth maximizing, any more than a criminal's welfare should be measured in deciding to outlaw crime (I.e., what if he gets more pleasure from the offence than I get displeasure.  From a strictly economic view, that exchange is wealth-maximizing is it not (setting aside moralisms about coercion and what-not)).

I also think if people are over-insured--and I'm not sure if they are or not--this can have an effect on things.

There is something puzzling in what you say Radley; you suggest the "economy" is not better off if you buy medical services from an accident.  But if that was the next best thing for you to buy with your money--like other necessities, it's at least Kaldor-Hicks efficient--then it's no more a net negative then if you buy a security system for your house b/c of crime or a meal b/c you're hungry.

P.S. For everyone who thinks I'm an idiot or immature, have you read The Problem of Social Cost by Ronald Coase.  It blows your dogmatism to smitherenes!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still think it can be a net positive for America depending on how much of the total (invested) insurance pie is held by foreigners.  I don&#8217;t think foreign welfare should be taken into account by American public policy in measuring whether a particular course of action&#8211;or random event&#8211;is wealth maximizing, any more than a criminal&#8217;s welfare should be measured in deciding to outlaw crime (I.e., what if he gets more pleasure from the offence than I get displeasure.  From a strictly economic view, that exchange is wealth-maximizing is it not (setting aside moralisms about coercion and what-not)).</p>
<p>I also think if people are over-insured&#8211;and I&#8217;m not sure if they are or not&#8211;this can have an effect on things.</p>
<p>There is something puzzling in what you say Radley; you suggest the &#8220;economy&#8221; is not better off if you buy medical services from an accident.  But if that was the next best thing for you to buy with your money&#8211;like other necessities, it&#8217;s at least Kaldor-Hicks efficient&#8211;then it&#8217;s no more a net negative then if you buy a security system for your house b/c of crime or a meal b/c you&#8217;re hungry.</p>
<p>P.S. For everyone who thinks I&#8217;m an idiot or immature, have you read The Problem of Social Cost by Ronald Coase.  It blows your dogmatism to smitherenes!</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. T.</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62281</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=4694#comment-62281</guid>
		<description>I can think of three exceptions where fixing the broken window might improve the overall economy: 

1. Money parked in nonproductive investments (such as gold coins) is used to pay for productive and efficient repairs. 

2. Damage is in a problem area (flood prone land, bad neighborhood, California, etc.) and rebuilding occurs somewhere better.

3. A high unemployment region is devastated, and people take their insurance money and move to a low employment region.

I doubt that any of the above scenarios happen to a significant extent, but theoretically the economy could improve after a major disaster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can think of three exceptions where fixing the broken window might improve the overall economy: </p>
<p>1. Money parked in nonproductive investments (such as gold coins) is used to pay for productive and efficient repairs. </p>
<p>2. Damage is in a problem area (flood prone land, bad neighborhood, California, etc.) and rebuilding occurs somewhere better.</p>
<p>3. A high unemployment region is devastated, and people take their insurance money and move to a low employment region.</p>
<p>I doubt that any of the above scenarios happen to a significant extent, but theoretically the economy could improve after a major disaster.</p>
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		<title>By: fyodor</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/09/29/hurricanes-and-broken-windows/#comment-62280</link>
		<dc:creator>fyodor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=4694#comment-62280</guid>
		<description>In a nutshell, there ain't no such thing as a free broken window!! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a nutshell, there ain&#8217;t no such thing as a free broken window!! <img src='http://www.theagitator.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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