TheAgitator.com
Ugh.
Sunday, September 26th, 2004Horrible Spectator piece on the chaos in Iraq.
Apparently the hot consumer items in Baghdad at the moment are DVDs depicting the beheadings of westerners.
I suppose, though, if our president says things are swell over there, and going according to plan, we ought to believe him.
Here’s another thought: Pro-war folks like to point to the liberation and eventual democratization of the Iraqi people as a justification for why we invaded. President Bush has regularly invoked the cause of the “Iraqi people” since it became clear that we weren’t going to find any WMDs of significance.
Fair enough, though I don’t think that’s a legitimate use of the U.S. military.
But then there’s “flypaper,” which has been openly advocated by some of the same pro-war pundits, and hinted at by officials in the Bush administration.
Not sure it’s possible to hold both positions at the same time.
You can’t say that the war was a good idea because it freed and bettered the lives of the Iraqi people, and because our presence there has lured many of the world’s suicide bombers, violent Islamists, and terrorists to kill in Baghdad instead of Boston.
First time I’d heard the “flypaper” excuse. Its like the kid who kills his mother and father because he is an evil aberrancy and in his defense argues that he did it to prevent his parents from having another kid like him.
Grim Realities
The Spectator reports that videos of beheadings are popular DVDs among Iraqis. Earlier the BBC and the Washington Times reported
On the bright side: as a result of invasion, DVDs have been introduced to Iraqis…
Throughout mainland China for about a year after 9/11, the hottest selling videos were of the towers falling and people jumping out. They showed dazed people walking away covered in dust and ash, while the narrator said things such as “look at these cowards. We’ll never be afraid of them again”. The government controlled media had to compete with privately-made videos (so they tossed in some footage from King Kong destroying New York, just to spice things up). People loved to watch the Americans die.
The article you linked to also mentioned some Iraqis watching the videos of government torture while Saddam was in power. Perhaps the lesson is that some people traumatized by brutal dictators end up scarred in unpleasant ways. But does that mean you discard the entire group as “damaged goods”?
Yes, you can hold both positions. Most Iraqis are better off, and now have hope for the first time. Municipal elections are being held, schools are opening, hospitals are opening, and people are lining up to serve in the police and army, in spite of the risk. The polls coming out of Iraq (for instance, the BBC polls) show a lot of optimism.
But, there are also troubled spots that have attracted even more terrorists than were already in Iraq before. We need to stay and fight and defeat those forces that are trying to pull Iraq back down. Twisting the news to try to convince everyone that the entire region is in chaos, simply because a Western reporter doesn’t like the fact that he’s very visible and has to worry about security, will help the terrorists, not the Iraqis. I’m not saying that reporters should cover up bad news – I’m saying that their reports have not been balanced. Perhaps after the election they’re rediscover “journalistic integrity”.
Why not? Let’s look at Israel as an example of a place with a pluralistic, democratic government where terrorists constantly are on the attack.
Are the lives of Israelis measurably better than the lives of Iraqis under Saddam Hussein? I’d answer that with a yes.
If that’s the case, then why couldn’t the lives of Iraqis be better when they are free of Saddam but under greater likelihood of terrorist attack? There is nothing mutually exclusive about the propositions as such.
“Not sure it’s possible to hold both positions at the same time. ”
Sure it is let me explain.
their are somewhere around 50 million people in Iraq. Many of their lives will be made better off by getting rid of Saddam (eventually).
On the fly paper theory, only certian areas are allowed to attact the terrorist. The minority of people living in that area, well their lives will not be that good, but they can also move to areas that are much nicer in Iraq if they choose to.
In other words, not everyone’s lives will be made better, but more people will be helped than hurt in the long run, in theory.
I don’t know if that is the case in reality but that is the idea.
Right-on Radley. I’ve also been thinking this but you put it in better words than I could. Although I think it was a good thing to get rid of Saddam, we should have closed the borders and protected the Iraqi people instead of taking our war to their turf.
So Iraq is an chaos because one reporter fears for his life. Does that really mean the country is in chaos.
Radley, I can’t believe that you would take this position. The entire country was in chaos and collapsing before we liberated them, now just small pockets and every day fewer.
Actually, Peter, according to a recent TIME article on the subject, the Pentagon once estimated only 5,000 insurgents, but now believe those numbers are at 20,000 or more. Another source gives the estimate of almost 50,000, with more getting behind them.
John H.
ReasonFor.com :: because people are dumb
just a reminder for radley regarding the DVD sales of the beheadings.
you posted a link to one beheading on your website.
I wish this election were over with and even though I`m a Bush supporter thats not as important as we as a nation removing our partisan hats and looking at this entire situation and coming to the realization that this is about a lot more than Iraq. Its about Afghanistan,Iraq,Iran,Syria,Pakistan,Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia, The Philippenes, The West Bank…etc. do you get my drift. Is this the onset of WW111 ? Is this the beginning of a horrific religious war ? , I don`t claim to know the answers but I believe the endgame will be very nasty. Nations that are trying to sit this thing out will join in, not because they want to but because they will have to if they want to survive. I don`t know who our next president will be but I do know that he and the leaders of other civilized nations will have their hands full for many years to come. Don`t get me wrong, I`m not predicting doom but there will be a lot of sacrifices along the way but make no bones about it the advanced nations will prevail.
We went into Iraq because no other nation over there, even our “friends” in SA were going to let us put that kind of manpower and firepower on the ground voluntarily.
We did not go to liberate anybody. We did not go for oil. We did not go because Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. We went because Saddam repeatedly gave the UN the finger and gave us what we needed to justify invasion. Now that we are there, the other government surrounding Iraq have to put their terrorist activities on the down low, since they know that we do not have to mobilize our forces from around the world to respond. We are already in striking distance.
But we could not have gotten any support for invading Iran or Syria at the time we went into Iraq. But Saddam gave us the invite by his actions.
The liberation of the Iraqi people is a positive byproduct of our actions, though any Iraqis that appreciate it will never be shown in the media saying so. There is no doubt that the human rights situation for the gen. population of Iraq is improved now that the Hussein’s are gone.
And, Saddam would have eventually developed weapons that, if to chicken to use on us himself, he would have sold to those groups that are not. Face it, he liked stirring up trouble. That’s why he was paying 25,000 a pop to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers to hit Israel.
And here is an interesting story about Saddam’s non-existant WMD programs.
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/26/wiran26.xml
The proponents of the fly-paper theory should consider what will happen with all the hard core experienced militants, with no fixed address, after they get bored with Iraq.
This whole thing stinks of Afghanistan all over again. Not Vietnam.
Good one Joker!
Terrorist 1 says, “I’m getting a little bored from defending my faith and purging the area of infidels.”
Terrorist 2, “Well, if you can save up your own plane fare, you can go attack the infidels where they live.”
Terrorist 1, “What a great idea! I only regret that I have but one life to give to the cause!”
Seriously, your criticism of the fly-paper theory implies we let leave Iraq with lots of militants standing to declare victory. No fly-paper theory proponents are planning on bailing with anything short of total victory. So, your argument is kind of pointless.
So many opinions on Iraq, and so little understanding.
Today I see posted on Foxnews.com that Al Jazeera did a poll asking whether people approve of kidnapping Americans in Iraq. Result, 98% approve of it. How do we deal with this?
The savagry of the world view in Islamic nations is beyond our help. We have not lost the Iraqi people, we never had them in the first place. Oh yes! They’d like to be free, free to impose their own barbaric ideas instead of the dictator’s.
No thank you. We cannot win there.
Our options are few, capitulate, or become as brutal in our defense as they are against us. I see no other way. If this is a war, then fight it like a war. If it’s a civics lesson, then kiss the United States goodby! There is no in between.
seriously? taking a poll from Al Jazeera at face value? come on, roy.
yeah roy, next you will be quoting dan rather.
leave some bait around and someone will bite….
Pinbot. Get real, ‘we’ will not kill all the militants in Iraq. It took how many of them to make a real mess in NYC? 15? 20? There are many thousands in Iraq who are amateurs today, learning from the professional Al Quedaists on how to ‘get the infidels’.
Do you really think that there is any hope in hell of getting every last one of them there? No Way.
We walked away from Najaf and other cities. Those Iraqis who fought there are considered by the locals to be the ‘heroes of the uprising’ now – great recruiting tool. Are these militants all dead now? Um, No.
Iraq now is the biggest Al Queda training facility on earth and they will export more than just oil, me thinks…
Of course I could be wrong (I am willing to consider that notion, unlike some other people), but I suspect that would only be wishful thinking.
Ann,
“people are lining up to serve in the police and army, in spite of the risk.”
Probably more a reflection of 60% unemployment than “most Iraqis [being] better off.”
I’m not sure what the solution is but I do believe in the old addage in for a penny, in for a pound. We can’t just leave but one thing that is obvious to me is that something needs to be done other than what is being done. I think most people will agree with that. But what needs to be done has as many opinions as there are people with opinions.
Whatever needs to be done needs to be done with savagery and extreme prejudice. And it needs to be done quickly. I think our military is still fighting this fight under the conventional rules of war. Maybe not so much in their tactics, but with their attitudes. In the case of these lawless barbarians who break all the rules, one must fight fire with fire. Seriously, folks . . . they are sawing the heads off of innocent civilians over there and we’re worried about them getting ‘abused’ in prison? Having pictures of them and their Johnsons hanging while fuckers like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi kidnap foreign nationals, as well as their own people, trying to help them rebuild their society? How hard is it to figure out that you have to hit these bastards hard and nasty. Otherwise, it is just going to get worse and worse. We’ve got to put down the rabid dog.
To my critics — quoting Dan Rather has nothing to do with being able to make accurate judgements about what I see going on. The mind-set in the Middle East has been to, “kill the infidel,” for how many centuries?
If something actually worthwhile comes of our efforts in Iraq, then I will repent of this position. But until then I see no reson for any optimism. I wish it could be otherwise, but it isn’t something I am illing to bet on.
I’m tempted to go on, but damn few in this country have the stomach for defending ourselves. It threatens their everlasting-fat-dumb-and-happy-land too much.
Danno understands!
This situation has no easy solutions. No political leader (current or hopeful) has an easy answer. Historically, all military efforts in the Middle East have led to pretty much the same outcome – a savage response by the locals. Personally I blame local patriotism. So, short of a complete ethnic cleansing effort (a final solution as someone once put it), there is no easy way to make them accept our gracious presence in the region. Oh yeah, we are not leaving Iraq any time soon, as I am sure you know â?? peace, stability, etc, etc.
Now I know that ‘they started it’ and ‘we only went there to help’, ‘this has nothing to do with Israel & the Palestinians’, and â??the CIA presented clear & obvious evidence, including crisp color photos of a non-existing Santa Claus residing at the North Pole c/w elves, sleigh and toy factory, or was it WMD in Iraqâ?¦uh, whateverâ??. We just had to do something â?? war being a no-brainer, so to speakâ?¦
The point is that they have no reason to stop until we, you know, stop meddling directly or indirectly with them. And that is a concept that is impossible to accept in Washington. It’s just not PC. So we will have to tighten our belts, fork over more cash, and keep fighting for peace as we have done so many times before. Ultimately we will triumph, but it will cost a lot more and take a lot longer than we have estimated.
“I’m tempted to go on, but damn few in this country have the stomach for defending ourselves.”
Uh. Roy, you don’t have the stomach for defending ourselves.
The “defending ourselves” part was over in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and it’s not done yet.
Iraq is a self-defeating distraction. The Pentagon (or at least the sane people there) must be praying that nothing happens in Korea in the next year, because we’d be seriously fucked.
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