TheAgitator.com
Draft Talk
Thursday, September 23rd, 2004The pro-Bush blogoshpere’s having a field day with Sen. Kerry’s alleged statement that if President Bush is reelected, he’d bring back the draft. Instapundit jumped on the story but, then, after the quote was put into context, retreated a bit. Still, he linked to this snarky post from Chicago Boyz.
Here’s what Kerry said:
“If George Bush were to be re-elected, given the way he has gone about this war and given his avoidance of responsibility in North Korea and Iran and other places, is it possible? I can’t tell you.”
Seems to me Kerry was implying our military is stretched too thin, and that if a front opens up in North Korea or Iran, all bets are off.
That the military is spread too far and wide is a point that’s been made by countless ex-military people, strategists, media, commentators and politicians, including the GOP’s own Kay Bailey Hutchison. Even the Pentagon admits as much at candid moments:
There was a rare public acknowledgement this week before Congress that at least some in the Pentagon know the U.S. military is stretched too thin, something that some lawmakers and military analysts have been saying for months.Gen. Richard Cody, the Army’s vice chief of staff, told the Armed Services Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives that the military could not properly respond with overwhelming force to a major war threat if one developed at this time.
There’s also some evidence that if the Bush administration isn’t yet entertaining the possibility of conscription, it’s at least laying ground for the possibility later. Soldiers in Iraq who’ve served a full tour of duty are already being held over with stop-loss orders which, according to media reports, is having devastating effects on morale. Inactive personnel are also being involuntarily called up for duty. There’s also been some suspicious activity of late from the Selective Service System.
Instapundit also writes that:
Maybe some reporters should ask him why, if this is a secret Bush plan, it’s Democrats in Congress who are sponsoring bills to bring back the draft?
And the poster at ChicagoBoyz writes:
No Republican has ever suggested we do this, and some Democrats have proposed it.
I’ve been very critical of the left, and have mocked Reps. Rangel and Conyers for thier draft talk nonsense. But the idea that the right is innocent of draft talk simply isn’t true.
Inroduced three months after 9/11, House Resolution 3598 is called “The Universal Military Training and Service Act of 2001.”
Language:
“Makes it the obligation of male citizens and residents between 18 and 22 to receive basic military training and education as a member of the armed forces unless otherwise exempt under this Act.”
Sponsors of that bill were:
Smith, Michigan — Republican
Weldon, Pennsylvania — Republican
Bartlett, Maryland — Republican
Here’s GOP Senator James Inhofe:
“I think I’m the only member of the Senate Armed Services Committee who would reinstate the draft. There are huge social benefits that come from it. I can assure you I would not be in the U.S. Senate today if I had not gone through the draft. When I look at the problems of some of our kids in America nowadays and then I go visit the troops, I see what a great benefit it is to give people the opportunity to serve their country.”
And there’s GOP Senator Chuck Hagel:
A Republican U.S. senator is calling for a return of the military draft so the cost of the Iraq operation could be borne by people of all economic strata.Speaking at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on post-occupation Iraq, Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., said, “There’s not an American … that doesn’t understand what we are engaged in today and what the prospects are for the future.”
Hagel, a member of the committee, says all Americans should be involved in the effort.
“Why shouldn’t we ask all of our citizens to bear some responsibility and pay some price?” Hagel said, arguing that restoring the draft would force “our citizens to understand the intensity and depth of challenges we face.”
The senator also argued re-instituting the draft, which ended in the early ’70s, would cause the burden of military service to be spread among all economic classes of people.
“Those who are serving today and dying today are the middle class and lower middle class,” he claimed.
Sen. John McCain has repeatedly expressed his desire for a mandatory national service program. The only thing that’s stopping him, he’s said, is that the political climate isn’t yet ripe for the idea.
And he’s not an elected official, but influential neocon darling David Brooks has called for mandatory national and/or military service on the op-ed pages of the New York Times, writing:
“[Mandatory national service ] takes kids out of the normal self-obsessed world of career and consumption and orients them toward service and citizenship.”
And:
“Today’s children … would suddenly face drill sergeants reminding them they are nothing without the group.”
Make no mistake, this is bipartisan stupidity.
There is nothing more Un-American then the draft. Slavery pure and simple. And, if your (read the government’s) war is not popular enough for people to sign up for then it does not have the backing of people to make it worth fighting.
Unless he does it today, he’s not gonna get me, as I am no longer eligible for the draft as of midnight tonight.
Still, it would be most unfortunate if they reinstated conscription. Why not go all the way and repeal the 13th Amendment?
“Nothing without the group”? Somebody’s been channelling the Borg again.
I’d vote for the draft. It is the only way to force the issue of foreign policy accountability down on to the voting public. I’ve spend many a year in the uniform, and it sickens me to listen to these fat â??arm-chair generalsâ?? with bad backs and creaky knees praising idiotic foreign policy moves made by elected knobs with no passports. Send them or their kids to the front lines and all of a sudden, the rusty gears of thought will begin to turn.
Joker
As many have said, including the owner of this site, more soldiers=more wars. Supply can create demand. The people who make the policy will get their sons into the National Guard, and the arm-chair generals, as you call them, will be honored to talk about how their saw the tank their kids died in on the history channel the other night.
>>>>Unless he does it today, he’s not gonna get me, as I am no longer eligible for the draft as of midnight tonight.
Bringing back the draft is a seriously bad idea. Alas, it seems to an idea that pops up every so often.
interesting
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,133212,00.html
Joker,
Rounding up citizens and forcing them, at gunpoint, to kill and conquer, is morally sickening, it is slavery, it is evil. And it is certainly not to be used as an excuse to “force” people to look at the human tolls of war more closely.
What if the abortion crowd said, “hey, you know what? The American People just don’t realize how horrific abortion is. So, we should start mandatory baby slaughter! It is the only way to force the issue of abortion accountability down on to the voting public.”?
What if the gun control nuts said “you know, The American People just don’t realize how dangerous assault rifles are. So, let’s call upon the federal government to start shooting people at random with assault rifles. It is the only way to force the issue of gun violence accountability down on to the voting public.”?
Armchair generals and [chicken]hawks and the rest of the folks who support the neoconservative imperialist view of the armed forces should not be “taught a lesson” using the blood of enslaved young Americans.
Evan,
can you repost your comment in german?
if not for the draft you probably could.
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0844347.html
Luca -
The cutoff age is 35. Also the same age you can run for President. I’ll be announcing my candidacy tomorrow…
Seventeen years ago today, I was standing in the post office filling out the selective service form, hoping that it would be lost in the mail. Twenty some-odd years before that, my dad went down and enlisted in the Air Force, because he was worried about being drafted and having no say in what happened to him. In war movies, farm boys from Kansas always ended up being drafted into the infantry, and the infantry always wound up getting shot. My dad valued his life more than the government did, and for that I am eternally grateful.
I had it better than my dad; the only reason I had to ‘sign on the line’ was to continue getting financial aid for college, not to make sure I didn’t wind up dead in a Vietnamese rice paddy. And I was lucky to come of age in a time that was relatively free from large-scale military conflict involving the US (the Gulf War being the exception, but that was nearly over before it began).
This next generation (the ones who are now and in the near future standing in the same spot I was in so many years ago) have a lot more to worry about than I ever did. That’s sad; we’re supposed to be striving for improving our way of life, not reverting back to barbarism and slavery. If our military forces are being stretched too thin, the answer doesn’t lie in forcing kids into the military, the answer is to fight in fewer places at the same time…
Evan, Jason. I think that you may very well be both right with your assertions. However, I did get a chance to meet many people who grew up in countries where mandatory military service is required by law (for a limited amount of time). It really is nothing more than a training session that lasts a couple of years.
None of the people I have met were ‘war-hawks’ in any way. In fact, by the time they got out of the military, it was the last thing that they would ever want to do again. They all, without exception, hated it because it was forced down their throats. So, at the end of their tour, they knew how to shoot straight, but hated doing it. And that is not so bad.
Mind you, I am sure that there are a few people who love it and would start WW III given half a chance, but most of them end up in jail or politics, eventually….
‘”[Mandatory national service ] takes kids out of the normal self-obsessed world of career and consumption and orients them toward service and citizenship.”‘
- And when did a self-obsessed world of career and consumption become a bad thing in America? If it wasn’t for so many people chasing the dollar and paying their taxes, there’s no way we could have even started this already $400 billion escapade.
‘”When I look at the problems of some of our kids in America nowadays and then I go visit the troops, I see what a great benefit it is to give people the opportunity to serve their country.”‘
- That’s the thing- we do give the “opportunity” to serve your country. Not only do we do that, but from the ages of 16 through 20, the armed forces will visit your schools, send you mail and target you in commercials and other advertising. They’ll shove and sell the “opportunity” down your throat. They’ll tell the problem children that this is the only way out of their low income future employed as an auto mechanic or a trashman.
‘”Makes it the obligation of male citizens and residents between 18 and 22 to receive basic military training and education as a member of the armed forces unless otherwise exempt under this Act.”‘
- From my understanding, these exemptions are available for those disabled or currently receiving a college education? Can anyone confirm this? Anyway, how is this going to make things more fair? What upper class white kids aren’t in college from ages 18-22? Is this a class or race issue? It seems to me that a draft would only really send more poor, underpriveledged, mostly minority (and this time, unwilling) kids to war. And then again, I might be off on my exempt assumptions.
Anyone else hear about Canada’s “memorial” for Vietnam draft dodgers? Very few news outlets seem to be covering this at the moment.
Anyone else hear about Canada’s “memorial” for Vietnam draft dodgers? The only real news out there now on it is an AP release with little detail.
What about a scenario where a conventional war is brought to our shores? If the existance of America is on the line? If you are unwilling to kill or be killed to protect your own freedom, then you should not have any. Nothing is more disgusting, evil or wrong than able-bodied people who are unwilling to fight for themselves, but expect to fully enjoy the benefits of freedom bought with the blood of others.
From a slightly different angle, I have a friend that used to work for the Pentagon, writing and running war-game simulations exploring the possibility of an enemy fighting us on our soil in conventional warfare.
The results were that the US was virtually invulnerable, even if our existing military was removed from the equation. The reasons are; we all have cars and SUV’s, private planes, boats etc…Many of us have guns. Many of us are ex-military or law enforcement and able to train others. Any workshop with a lathe or other equipment could be put to use making weapons and ammo. Many of us are educated enough to use common household items and chemicals to make weapons. We have CB’s, HAMM radios, GPS systems. Our population is better equipped than many country’s militaries, except for military training.
These are the things that make America an unlikely target for invasion by even the most powerful foriegn powers. If you add to that mandatory service like Switzerland has, where everyone spends some time getting military training, and our population becomes even more of deterrant to those who would think about warring with us.
I am not saying we need to do it. In fact, because our population has all of the benefits I mentioned above, we may not even need it. But it is a FAR cry from slavery. Not even close. That is just power word that holds no place in this conversation.
Freedom and equality for all is not the natural state. At every level of the food chain, the stongest are on top, with the weaker trying to survive through hiding or simply greater numbers. Freedom is an unnatural thing and must be fought for to be maintained. It’s walls must constantly be shored up by those who wish to preserve it.
Those unwilling to help preserve it should not benefit from it. If you don’t help bake the bread, you don’t get to eat the bread.
A draft would be interesting in one respect – the effect on personal finances of draftees.
I’d bet that people eligible for the draft are carrying far higher debt loads than they did during previous drafts.
People with a heavy debt load from their SUV, mortgage, college loan, credit cards, etc, could be in for a rude shock when, suddenly, they’re making a fraction of their former salary – too little to support their former lifestyle, which they’re still paying off.
Chris, I don’t think those are the main reasons. Attempting a ground invasion against the most powerful nation on the planet by far is possibly not the cleverest of battle strategies no matter how well armed the general population are.
Additionally, while Switzerland almost certainly survived WW2 by being well armed, it’s probably a closer parellel to point out that no nuclear armed country has (to my knowledge) ever suffered a full scale invasion.
“Anyone else hear about Canada’s “memorial” for Vietnam draft dodgers?”
LOL…Nelson, BC is a perfect place for such a monument. A quaint hippie town smack in the middle of a region whose demographics resemble Idaho or Montana. Runs the gamut from neo-Nazis to hippie communes, atheists to bible thumpers, vegans to venison eaters. A strong libertarian bent of live and let live permeates the place – which is best, otherwise they’d all try to kill each other.
Great pot too, even by BC standards.
A worthwhile vacation destination for everyone here – been biking through the area twice and you meet incredible people that reaffirm your belief in humanity.
As for the dodgers, we’ll take them. Canada tends to do well from American emigration.
Bernard,
The simulations were run with all four branches of our military completely removed from picture. The russian military against our civilians only. They were testing the successful invasion and then occupation of our country given zero military to fight for us. Numerous sims testing everything from paratrooper attacks nation wide to fullscale amphibious assaults. They had no trouble getting here, since the civies had no military capability to prevent it. But they could not maintain a prolonged occupation.
Look at what a comparatively few insurgents continue to do in Iraq.
Short of wmd’s and total annihilation, we citizens could hold our own. Those were just sims, but run thousands of times with thousands of different parameters. They used the russians and the chinese.
So some military training for all civilians would only bolster our abilities.
Again, I am not saying I necessarily support it. But it is not slavery as it has been called here. It is a potential alternative worthy of discussion.
Frankly, staying all volunteer may just mean paying our soldiers better than we do. They deserve far more than they get considering the imposition on their lives that the military entails. I hope everyone that is so opposed to a draft or mandatory service is ready to pay the bill if we have to double the average enlisted man’s pay in order to keep enough volunteers ready to fight and die for us.
Military draft
A couple days ago John Kerry came under fire for reports that he suggested President Bush would instate the draft
war is chaos, and chaos is unpredictable. It’s unlikely that the US will ever be invaded, conventionally. You are just too big and strong at the moment. But give it 50 years, when the chinese have bought up the oil and fully equipped their military and who knows? It’ll probably just be economic domination, you’d have to really piss them off to get them to invade. I reckon they’d be up for a nuclear war too. They figure they can afford to lose more people than you could sustain. Then the draft won’t save you.
Uh, guys. The Republican Bill was in 2001 in the hysteria post 9/11. It died a merciful death and no major Republican (like the President say) was ever behind it.
Fast forward to 2004. Rangle, another Dem and a fringe Republican propose the same bit and it is laughed out of the Congress.
Now the Democrats – who were the main sponsors – are using this bogus manuver as a campaign tactic and you fools are yelling that Bush imperils your life and liberty. Uh. You are joking. Right? Nope. You are Libertarians (recognize the disease, had it myself for years).
Washington etc. have come to their senses. If you don’t want to be in the military you shouldn’t be. We need a strong militia. Keep your weapons and your wits ready. It will be fine.
There always was a current in American foreign policy that believed in spreading Liberty – by force if necessary, and it has been there from the beginning. The history of 1800 to 1812 is especially full of it. 9/11 has strengthened that current.
What you forget about Jeffersoinian foreign policy is that it was for a weak America. When we were equal or stronger even Jeffersonian foreign policy was agressive. Jefferson gave us “the shores of Tripoli” in the Marine Corps hymn. And even then when pennies were dear it was “Millions for Defence not one red cent for tribute.” When we get in these moods cost is no object. At least for a while.
wade,
I doubt the Chinese could buy up the oil. With what? And if they could? And if they got agressive?
A very good reason to shape the outcomes of regions that might be competitive. Like say the Middle East and Africa.
Well any as you can probably tell I’m not too welcome in Libertarian circles these days. However, to act like an agressive American foreign policy is an abberation is to do a disservice to our history.
Like it or not the nation has moods. The Clinton years were very Jeffersonian in foreign policy. 9/11 brought that era to an end. It probably will not come back in our life times. Savor what was.
“can you repost your comment in german? if not for the draft you probably could.”
Michael:
That’s a pretty damned specious argument.
The paraphrase Lisa Simpson, look at this rock I have. It keeps away tigers. How do I know? Because there aren’t any tigers around.
Things could have gone many different ways in this last century, the bloodiest century in human history.
Today, the United States spends far, far more on our military than even the second-placer, Russia. We could cut our budget by 2/3, and still outspend the next closest on the list. Our nuclear submarines trawl the seven seas, stocked with nuclear-equipped Tridents.
Our military “power” and exhaltation of the presidency has brought us to a strikingly unique place in history: one man, out of 6 billion+, has the sole power to end life on this planet within hours.
On the other hand, the intent of the framers was that local militias would protect the states, and the only need for federal troops would be in the case of invasion, and the militias could not handle things.
Contrast that with our “world police” military of today, with troops stationed in 130-some countries, billions of dollars spent every year on fun new weapons systems and neoimperialist “natiobuilding” misadventures, and we’re STILL hated the world round.
Yet, people like Zell Miller have the nerve to whine that anyone who votes against the expansion of this already-bloated monster, is a pansy, and wishes to see us defend ourselves with “spitballs”.
And folks like you bring up irrelevant, specious non-arguments that give all the credit for us not being invaded and taken over by germany, to slavery.
Evan:
‘Our military “power” and exhaltation of the presidency has brought us to a strikingly unique place in history: one man, out of 6 billion+, has the sole power to end life on this planet within hours. ‘
Are you sure? I’m fairly certain the President can’t authorise nuclear force individually. I’m even more sure that the Russians have more than enough nukes to acheive the same goal. should they so wish. Regardless, I don’t quite see what that or the rest of your position has to do with the draft. You appear to have prefaced your unwillingness to address Michael’s ‘specious non-argument’ with several irrelevant/inaccurate points of your own.
Wade:
‘But give it 50 years, when the chinese have bought up the oil and fully equipped their military and who knows? It’ll probably just be economic domination, you’d have to really piss them off to get them to invade. I reckon they’d be up for a nuclear war too. ‘
That seems fairly unlikely to me. China will have enough problems managing its economy and popular expectation these next 50 years without being an enemy of the US. A much more dangerous scenario would be a global economic slowdown which pushed Chinese economic progress off the rails and reignited the militant populism which has declined somewhat of late.
hmmmm, didnt read my link i see evan. that does not surprise me.
10,000,000 men drafted in world war two and 75% of our entire armed forces were draftees in world war one.
my point was things would be different if not for the draft.
and since when does relying on prior experiences constitute irrelevant, specious non-arguments when all you libertarians have to rely on for your political ideology are theory and conjecture.
please name me one non-third world country that has not used conscription to protect its sovereignty.
heres another link i doubt you will read.
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/ah_019500_conscription.htm
Even–
I would like to buy your rock.
I think Rep. Stark’s comments deserve ridicule. But I have other fish to fry. But, since thomas.loc.gov links aren’t permanent (or at least this one doesn’t appear to be), I’ve mirrored them.
Pure Bush-bashing, AFAICT.
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