TheAgitator.com
Custom-Made for IJ?
Tuesday, August 10th, 2004If you default on debts to government in New York, your state, city, or county can not only auction off your possessions to satisfy your debt, interest, and fines, but also can (and routinely does) take possession of the remainder.
Example, and obligatory tug at your heartstrings:
Sarah Jones, 68, who had two strokes and has been living on Social Security disability since 1988, said she’s a victim of Suffolk’s auction process.“My house of nearly 40 years was taken by Suffolk County in 1997,” Jones said. At the time, she owed the county $11,723 in taxes and penalties on her two-bedroom Patchogue home, according to the treasurer’s office.
Her home was sold at a June auction for $185,000 – with all of the money going to county coffers. “This is not right,” she said.
This is true? If you default on your tax bill, is the state then able to just up take everything — even well above and beyond what you owe?
I don’t know. I’m asking.
Hat tip: Pieces of flare.
It varies by county in Ohio. Property (being the house, land, detached garaged if so, etc.) can be sold to cover the delinquent property taxes (but not income taxes). While I doubt Sarah Jones lost her other possessions (furniture, clothing, etc.), she would indeed lose any of the additional proceeds from the sale of her house. In essence, the Tax Commission gets the $11K; the courts keep the other $174K to dispose of as directed by the judge. The judge has no obligation to give this money to the former owner (Sarah Jones, in the cited case).
In Summit County, she would then have to pay transportation and storage costs for the new owner (the county or auction buyer) to remove her furniture and other possessions from the house.
and this isn’t even considered any type of eminent domain when they take it this way…
I don’t have the law in front of me, but my recollection of New York law (I’m originally from Suffolk) is that they can do this.
There’s no Takings Clause issue because it’s not “for public use” but rather for “satisfaction of a debt” … and there’s no due process violation since the debtors had notice and access to a hearing.
Another way you can look at it is that by refusing to satisfy a tax judgment you are in contempt of court, which is an open invitation to incur penalties that do not necessarily correlate well with the underlying misbehavior.
Or still another way to look at it could be that by refusing to satisfy the basic requirements of property ownership (i.e., paying taxes), you are, in the eyes of the law, declaring that you have abandoned the property to the state (called “escheat”).
Still sux tho.
Wow, this is so unbelievably f’ed up.
Even someone with just a pinch of common sense should see that this is not just.
Person owes A, person should have to pay no more than A + some amount of interest + some fee for collections to satisfy the original A.
Terrible.
Doug
In Texas, if property is confiscated to relieve debt, and then said property is sold for more than the amount of the debt, then the debtor can claim the difference, but the state is not going to offer the info. The debtor has to follow up. The statute of limitations is 2 years.
I’ve always said you never really own your house because you always have to pay rent to the county or they will take it away from you. It does make me wonder how long she went without paying – 2 years..3 maybe? She would have gotten notices from the county. Why didn’t she sell the house before they took possession? I think property taxes should end once you are retired.
Property taxes should end now. For everyone.
sean hannity had a NY suffolk county official on his radio show the other day and confronted him with this exact story.
sean was going off on this guy and the guy absolutely defended the policy.
guys, radley especially, thats why we cant vote for liberals.
this type of theft and redistribution of wealth is at their core.
hannity also discussed a similar story where a guy owed the count like 40k in back taxes. the county stole his house and made out with like 500k.
I love how the Libertarians are decrying this policy. Does it seem unfair? Sure. However, that Suffolk Cty. policy maintains that you only lose the equity after {I]2 1/2 years[/I] of failing to pay taxes.
Now, you can debate whither taxes all day long, but they’re not going anywhere. The fact is that if you don’t pay your bank or your local taxing authority for nearly three years, that’s essentially theft – you’re getting something for nothing. You bargained for the deal you got when you sign the mortgage papers or choose to buy a house in a given location.
I sympathize over people having illnesses or other unexpected calamities, but like another poster said, sell the house yourself and you get to keep all the equity. Or, suck up your pride and borrow the money from your friends. Or, *shudder*, apply for a second mortgage on that vast equity and pay off the debt. This isn’t about fair or unfair, it’s about lazy versus being responsible.
The knee-jerk reaction to this is going to be a charged one siding with the poor saps who lose all to the gummint. I know, I had one myself. However, upon further review, there is something more to this than meets the eye. I think Razor and KipEsq. have the proper perspective on the issue.
I can’t believe that the woman was so oblivious to what was happening with her home that she would lose it without a fair and due process. Someone must have been taking care of her if she was incoherent. Family members, friends, volunteer groups are all available to her to offer her advice and help keep her life in order. Unless there are tremendous extenuating circumstances, I can’t bow my heart to my head on this one. The onus was on her to make arrangements to pay her taxes. It’s sad but that’s how it goes.
there is nothing wrong the the state taking and selling the house to cover
- taxes
- interest (a concept foreign to some here)
- penalties
- administrative cost
- legal fees
but to take every cent. give be a fucking break.
Danno, here is my list of other government policies that get the “sorry, thats just how it goes” arguemnt
- abortion
- death taxes
- capital gains tax
- double taxation of corporations
- welfare
- healthcare for the world
- hell, Iraq
should i keep going?
I’m with Michael on this one.
Sure, she owes to the local community the taxes due. However, not one cent more. Sure, she should’ve been smarter about it, but simply because one is a dumbass does not give the state the right to take advantage of the condition. Nobody thinks she deserves a pass…but is a little fair treatment out of line?
MOLLY 2004
If I go to the store and by gum with a twenty, what is it called if they don’t give me change?
theft?
No it’s not called theft Jason, it’s called conversion or breach of contract.
As for the penalties, it sounds like she may be able to get relief by suing the county under the tort claims.
There is no good reason for a lack of symmetry with debts owed to other third parties though. After the debt, fines, and admin. costs are taken care of, there’s no reason she shouldn’t get the remainder. Otherwise the punitive aspect is totally random and arbitrary.
michael . . . I think I have been pretty clear in this forum on where I stand on the other issues you listed. You and I have never nor will we ever cross swords on those issues as you know that my views are pretty much in line with yours.
As far as this issue is concerned, I have to hold my ground on the position I have taken, regardless of whether it’s ‘business as usual’ or not. We are not getting the whole story here, I can almost certainly gaurantee you that. There is much more to it than:
The big, bad county government sold the sick, little old lady’s house and kept all the proceeds to line their already bulging coffers and left her with nothing because they wanted her to suffer.
I’m sure of it. Government can be wicked, no doubt. And with the aforementioned abortion as a reality checker to what our government allows and disallows, one probably wouldn’t put something like my jaded scenario above them but . . . something is amiss here. I can almost smell it.
Seems like it’s up to the individual county to set the guidelines for recovering back taxes. Nassau county (for those not from the NYC metro area) is adjacent to Suffolk county, but allows former homeowners to recover the difference (after a previous Newsday article brought to light similar stories).
Another factor not mentioned in the article is the break neck pace property taxes (and values) have reached in the last few decades. Long Island (Nassau and Suffolk counties) in general has become a significantly more expensive place to live. It’s one of the main reasons that my Mom, after living in Patchogue (where Sarah Jones lived) for 25 years, just moved upstate.
And michael, I think I spit out my drink when you made the assumption that the “liberals” are in power in Suffolk county. Local government has been controlled by Republicans for quite some time, who are generally not referred to as liberals as I understand it.
supergenius,
there are liberal republicans and conservative democrats.
redistribution of wealth is a liberal agenda.
Well, I try to learn something new every day. Can you give me an example of a liberal (relatively well known) Republican)?
The term still doesn’t jibe in my head from what I remember about the local politics on LI…
conservative democrat – Zell Miller
liberal republican – arnold shwarzenegger
To add another little twist to this story.
Here is Texas, if someone fails to pay their property taxes and abandons the property, if you pay the property tax on it, you can own the land.
There are other nuances to it I’m sure, but that just about sums it up.
My mom once bought 2 acres of land and a house for $25k like that. Can’t beat that with a stick.
This old lady was guilty of the only crime worth mentioning: WEAKNESS.
She was weak and feeble in the face of organized strength, and was crushed. The weak must fall to give way to the strong. Natural selection in action, etc.
Of course she deserved what she got.
I guess the ‘government’ felt entitled to the overpayment…
She had a debt and could not/would not satisfy it without a forced sale of assets. There is no logical reason the debtor is in anyway entitled to more than is due.
TO name every liberal Republican would take a while! They are called RINOs
MOLLY 2004
Liberal Republican? Easy: George W. Bush.
You all should see the movie House of Sand & Fog. Exact same story. And a great movie. But very sad ending. SEE IT NOW!