TheAgitator.com
No Friends of Bill W.
Sunday, May 9th, 2004Last weekend, the Washington Post ran a profile of Susan Cheever, author of a new biography on Acoholics Anonymous founder Bill Wilson. Read the following passage from the piece, and take note of your own reaction upon reading it:
Cheever came to the pages covering Christmas 1970. On the eve of the holiday, Bill Wilson passed a fitful night. A lifelong smoker, he had been fighting emphysema for years, and now he was losing the battle. Nurse James Dannenberg was on duty in the last hour before dawn. At 6:10 a.m. on Christmas morning, according to Dannenberg’s notes, the man who sobered up millions “asked for three shots of whiskey.”He was quite upset when he didn’t get them, Cheever writes.
Wilson asked for booze again about a week later, on Jan. 2, 1971.
And on Jan. 8.
And on Jan. 14.
“My blood ran cold,” Cheever said recently of the discovery. “I was shocked and horrified.” With time to ponder, though, she found herself thinking, “Of course he wanted a drink. He was the one who talked about sobriety being ‘a daily remission.’ I realized that this was a story about the power of alcohol: that even Bill Wilson, the man who invented sobriety, who had 30-plus years sober, still wanted a drink.”
So did your blood run cold? Were you shocked that Bill Wilson would ask for alcohol on his deathbed, but relieved to learn he didn’t get it? I’d guess that a healthy majority of the people who read the article felt the same way.
That’s because they’ve been brainwashed. I found it rather abhorrent that Bill Wilson couldn’t get a taste of the one thing that may have made him feel a bit better on his deathbed. That allegiance to some stupid code of an earthly recovery group made one man’s descent into death much more difficult than it needed to be.
I’m not horrified that Billl Wilson asked for alcohol as he was dying. I’m horrified that he didn’t get it.
There are a couple of different ways of looking at alcoholism. One way says that it’s the condition of needing alcohol, and that it becomes a problem only when the need for alcohol and the effects of consuming alcohol take a toll on the alcoholic’s personal and professional life, or that he becomes a threat, a danger, or a burden on those around him. We need lots of things to help us get through life. If, for some of us, a few drinks a day are among those things, and we can remain functional and cordial and unassuming while taking those drinks, is the fact that we crave them really all that bad?
The other way is to look at alcoholism as this looming demon that needs to be defeated not because of the ill-effects it can cast on some people and those around them, but because alcoholism itself is an evil to be erradicated at all costs, and that every instance of its defeat somehow effects a greater good in the world. For these people, defeating alcoholism is an ends unto itself. They’d support overcoming a craving for drink even if overcoming the craving caused more damage to the alcoholic and his family than allowing him to continue to drink.
You can probably guess which view I take.
People who enter programs like Alcoholics Anonymous put themselves through a good amount of suffering. They do so because they conclude that the amount of suffering they’ll need to endure to overcome alcoholism is less than the suffering they’ll inflict on themselves and those they care about should they continue to drink. That’s it. That’s the only reason to enter AA. You don’t enter AA if you crave a couple of drinks every night before bed (some people probably do, but there’s no reason for them too). Even if you really, really crave them. Why not? Because those drinks and that craving aren’t disrupting your life.
So what ill effects were those deathbed shots of whiskey going to have on Bill Wilson’s life? They certainly weren’t going to wreck his liver. They weren’t going to make him beat his wife or his kids. Seems to me the only thing those shots would have done would have been to make Bill Wilson feel a little better. Does anyone think that the millions of people Bill Wilson’s program helped off of alcohol would go back to drinking upon hearing that he “gave in” once he was within inches of dying? Would it somehow have invalidated AA’s track record?
Was the symbolic value of keeping Bill Wilson alcohol-free until the moment of his death really worth denying Bill Wilson some relief from the pain of terminal illness? If Bill Wilson himself asked for some whiskey, he had obviously calculated that the pleasure it would give him was worth more to him at the time than any “damage” to his reputation as the guy who started AA might suffer if he consumed it. Or perhaps he didn’t care. But it doesn’t matter. What right did the people around him have to not respect his request?
And what kind of puritanical sadists have the rest of us become in that we relish the thought of a sick man being made to unnecessarily suffer against his will so as to preserve some sort of saintly example for today’s alcholics to follow, or to make the rest of us feel more “pure” about Bill Wilson’s legacy?
You can probably see where this is going. People who revel in the fact that Bill Wilson was made to suffer out of allegiance to keeping his anti-alcohol legacy pure suffer from the same delusions as the people who think we ought to make cancer, AIDS, and other sick people suffer out of allegiance to the war on drugs. Kids who choose to smoke pot today don’t do so because California lets its AIDS patients light up at medical clinics. And kids who choose not to smoke pot don’t base that decision on the fact that federal agents now raid convalescent centers and handcuff senior citizens to their beds.
Likewise, nobody stops or starts drinking, enters or gives up on AA because Bill Wilson wanted whiskey on his deathbed.
Hat tip: David Boaz.
Seems to me the allegiance may have made Bill W.’s “descent” into death more difficult, but not his “dissent”.
There is, however, one narcotic that does need to be eradicated at all costs: the initiation of force. The moment a man or group of men draw pleasure or self-worth from controlling or harming others, it almost always leads to a vicious cycle of seeking more control and inflicting more harm.
I work extensively on issues related to the FTC. At one point last year, I finally realized that on one level, regulators are drug addicts. The craving for power and control override their rational judgment, and they act in a destructive manner, though unlike drugs the destruction harms others more than it harms the addict. Because as a society, we enable regulatory addicts in a way we never would coddle drug or alcohol addicts.
It’s another example of (or extension of) the idea that we can and should tell others how to live their lives based on our personal beliefs–either via the gov’t or as individuals.
Addicts Anonymous
My name is Chip and I am an addict. Radley Balko at The Agitator writes of his unhappiness that Bill Wilson, the founder of AA, couldn’t get a drink on his deathbed. He breaks attitudes about alchoholism down into two
“I’m not horrified that Billl Wilson asked for alcohol as he was dying. I’m horrified that he didn’t get it.”
I’m with you on this Radley. My father-in-law, who had been a AA regular for 20 years, and who was on his last legs due to cancer, desired a beer or two during his last months. I was pleased to sit on his porch in San Diego, and quaff a cold one with him, prior to his death.
John
You are a lucky man. I believe your father-in-law still maintained his sobriety, despite what many hardcore AA members might think.
Poor Bill Wilson; like every other religion, the backstory is only as compelling as the martyrdom involved.
Personally, I feel the final request of a dying man to be considered more worthy of following than the contradictory dogma of some quasi-religious group, even for the group’s founder. But the hardcore zealots woudn’t agree with me…
I didn’t read your whole post, Rad (o the horror!) because I knew my own reaction right away.
Give the man his fucking whiskey. When my grandmother was dying of cancer – cancer of the everything but her lungs – she continued to smoke and no one said a word about it or tried to stop her.
Except when she was so doped up on morphine that she’d try to light them from the wrong end – or would light one and fall asleep, dropping the cigarette to the floor to burn a long, long mark in the carpet.
In any case, we let the woman have the one comfort she had left. She was angry with her god, and found no comfort there, and was rarely coherent.
Why in the world would you want to deny a dying person their one comfort?
I feel sick just thinking about it.
As someone who used to be a problem drinker, I also find this appalling. I’m committed to not drinking, because I don’t want to screw up my life, but if I were on my deathbed?
When the first hubbub about illicit Oxycontin broke in the media, my mother, a nurse in an Oncology ward, told me about the stuff. “It’s very dangerous,” she said, “once you’re on that, there’s no turning back. That’s why they only give it to terminal cases.”
Cheever must not have a whole lot of perspective. When you’re DYING of CANCER, addiction is the least of your worries.
“Was the symbolic value of keeping Bill Wilson alcohol-free until the moment of his death really worth denying Bill Wilson some relief from the pain of terminal illness?”
if two shots of whiskey provides “relief from the pain of terminal illness” I’m buying Seagram stock.
Because a sober alcoholic wants a drink doesn’t mean someone has to go get him one. He died sober, and too bad for you:)
“That’s the only reason to enter AA.”
no, other reasons would be to preserve your life, live constructively, not be a burden on family and society, stay out of jail, not file bankruptcy, keep your drivers license, earn a living, keep your spouse and children, etc, etc…
So a man who successfully chose not to drink for 30+ years should have his legacy destroyed because he wanted to get drunk again before he died. Of course he wanted to get drunk. He wanted whiskey every day. Every single day, regardless of it being 5 years into his sobriety, or 5 days, he wanted whiskey.
You obviously haven’t been through recovery or you’d know that recovery isn’t about not wanting the drugs, it’s about resisting the urge to do them, and when you can’t resist you ask someone for help.
I imagine that BW didn’t have the means to get a hold of the people he needed most at that time. I bet if you take a look at the medications he was being given at the time, there would have been at least one on the list that would have qualified as a narcotic, such as vicodin or some other sort of pain killer. Thus, denying him the whiskey would be a medical issue, not an issue of self gratifying torture to preserve a legacy.
Please, someone, since I am not a nurse, nor a doctor, do they even keep drinking alcohol, such as JD in hospitals? Is it customary to serve dying people whiskey? I think not, though I really don’t know.
Get over yourself. BW did not want that whiskey.
New Yorker:
I wronte:
People who enter programs like Alcoholics Anonymous put themselves through a good amount of suffering. They do so because they conclude that the amount of suffering they’ll need to endure to overcome alcoholism is less than the suffering they’ll inflict on themselves and those they care about should they continue to drink. That’s it. That’s the only reason to enter AA.
You wrote:
no, other reasons would be to preserve your life, live constructively, not be a burden on family and society, stay out of jail, not file bankruptcy, keep your drivers license, earn a living, keep your spouse and children, etc, etc…
Um…all you really did is provide examples of exactly what I wrote.
Morgan –
Thank you for very cleary elucidating what Puritan thinking looks like.
Everyone, please take note.
As a formerly AA guy & practicing drunk I agree with Radley.
In fact we are all dying so what the fuck? I want some parameters dammnit.
Radley’s list of behavior requirements of an alcoholic are amusing. Dude you have no idea.
Bill W. helped provide something that kept me from killing others and/or dying at one time in my life.
For that the least I could do was offer him a drink. Or twenty…
i might be in the minority, but what the guy’s life really stood for was the freedom he helped others regain.. i have 12 years, i might not have it if i thought that the originator went back on his goal at the last minute
if you go to meetings long enough you will hear some guy talk about waking up some morning, coming out of a blackout, and having to wash blood off a bumper -not knowing if it was an animal or a person…you dont fk with that so casualy… it’s not just that guy having a beer, it’s what it could do to the folks that hear about it.. dont just say ‘that’s weak man’ because, yes it is weak, that’s the point…it’s called a weakness for a reason
also aa is a group that has a goal of helping folks not give into weakness, they didnt deprive him of a beer, they kept him from giving in to his weakness, he didnt die thinking, “oh fk,, i crapped out at the last min”
i mean one fking public person aught to hold his principles
when i first quit drinking i was taking care of a guy who was dying from having trashed his liver.. he wanted me to get him a little wine, i shrugged it off, without outright refusing, a couple of days later, and 1 day before he died, he thanked me for not getting it…
on a lighter note, i hurt my leg at work, went to the er, doc says ‘do you drink?’ i sez, i could start if you think i’d get more girls”‘ doc says “sobriety is for quiters”
funny stuff
there is no dicotomy.
granting a dying person a last wish, easing the transition should never be a political act. All bets are off. They know that they are going through their last moments on earth, and their requests should never be denyed.
The whole point is that Bill W. lived his LIFE proper. Him wanting a buzz on his DEATH bed, and being denied, is awful. Unfortunatly, you can only be in his shoes at one time in your life, and cannot comment on it, ever.
Thanks to this article, I will now be sure to stipulate in my will that any of my family/friends who fucks with me in my final hours/days/whathaveyous gets removed from said will. And then killed. Yeah, just deduct the fee out of my total holdings. kthx.
AA can be so cultish. His followers denied him his drink b/c they didn’t want to see their messiah fall down. Poor man. But that’s what happens when you make a doorknob your god.
Sobriety doesn’t save your soul. Drugs are bad b/c they get in between a human and the one Creator.
He should have asked for a joint. He’d still be alive today!
Rehab is for Quitter’s
ya know? I think that’s the biggest crock of shit ever!
Booze on my death bed? They should have given it to him! Pansy ass whiney fucks. Screw you and AA. I if am dying I deserve a drink or 3. So do you.
Kinda reminds me of that scene in Young Frankenstein when the doctor is locked in with the creature and says “don’t let me out, no matter how much I ask, no matter how much I cry out…” then spends the rest of the scene trying to back track and negotiate his release.
I haven’t been to an AA meeting in several years. Too much whining. I’ve been clean and sober for 12 years, and sometimes I’d love to have a couple of shots of tequila. I hate all those do-gooders who want to run everyone’s lives, because they have such miserable lives themselves. When I go out, my sons will know to bring a bottle a Jose Cuervo when they come for that last visit.
Seems the AA member kick one habit and pick up another, so – I say, you deserve to die if you decides to smoke to cancle the smell of booze. SO – Smokers are cancer lovers, and thus, THEY BELONG DECEASED! AA is nothing but a place with Drunks go to pick up new drug habits. I drive by one daily on my way to work, and see the number of cancer users standing outside burning there lungs, so – WHATS THE POINT, might just as well jump off a bridge if you do not intend to come clean. Smoking and drinking are both sin items, so – the users of both marked them selves for a visit with a demon. Smokers careless about non smokers, and frankly, I careless about cancer lovers, and make it clear when I have to walk through there clouds when going inside a building, they choose to use cancer stcisk, so now you carry the term CANCER lover!
I am grateful to na/aa for teaching me how to live life without being high to have fun. I did the meetings for two years until the hypocrisy got to me….
I’ve never seen so many people chainsmoking and running to the coffee pot for that free caffeine….
2 years ago following my wife leaving me, I went through a major binge (that started with an issue of over-drinking every night). As I was looking at the bill I had received from counselling after dealing with a wife cheating/leaving me, I saw along the diagnosis “Alcohol Abuse”. Out of the corner of my eye I saw my 5 year old daughter calmly playing with her toys. I resolved then and there that my daughter wouldn’t grow up with an abusive/alcoholic father like I had to.
I TRIED for 2 weeks to sign myself into a local hospital for detox/rehab but since I was sober at the time I was trying to get in, they wouldn’t let me. Thankfully a Doctor friend of mine on my final day of trying to get in drove me to the hospital after I drank all day long so I would HAVE to be admitted for help (yeah what a weird situation… it almost led to a malpractice suit against the hospital.
I spent only 2 days in detox, while I was there I saw others who were definately worse off than I. Here I was in my early 30′s with a home, a decent job that was kind enough to give me time to get this malady settled. and a wonderful doctor (not my friend) who helped me formulate my plan.
While in detox, I was introduced to AA. Even though I detested the quasi-religious nature of it, the fundamental core I perceived was that it gave some sort of foundation of faith for those who may have lost it.
I realized that AA was not the way for me to defeat this daemon of mine. However my attack on this was a little more pronounced. After I told the attending physician what my plan was I was released within 2 hours.
upon release, I was picked up by a friend. I called my Dr. (Vader lets say… he sounds like James Earl Jones) and he phoned in a prescription for Antabuse at the closest pharmacy.
I to this day can remember swallowing that first pill with an iced tea in the parking lot knowing that this was the beginning of a new me.
I took the antabuse for a year with nothing more than a minor craving after mowing the lawn in the summer (A beer just seemed to “go” with physical activity… not just the desire for drunkenness) I quit the Antabuse exactly one year from my release… that was over 7 months ago, and I still don’t have any desire to drink.
My issue was that in my profession I would try to “relax” after a stressful day, and a couple of drinks did that… it wasn’t until I began drinking more and more in the need to escape from what I was under stress about that I realized the issue.
Will I ever drink again??? Perhaps… I used to be a chef/sommelier, so I miss the combination of a good wine with a wonderfully prepared dinner every now and then… but that’s about it.
and yes satan, I still do smoke… that is the next addiction for me to conquer, I’d done it in the past through exercise and diet, and I’ll do it again. Of all the chemicals (prescribed and otherwise) that I have put in my system, nicotine has been the hardest to conquer.
But remember, hating people is far worse than hating inanimate objects, or even large mega-corporations. So don’t hate the smokers, hate what has made them what they are.
If you are wondering what I’m leading to, go rent “Clerks” and watch Dante get pelted with cigarettes whilst being chided as a “cancer merchant”… a poignant scene
ok enough rambling… time for a smoke and a cup of coffee before I start my day…. oh yeah where did I put that crack pipe??? :)
bofh out!
As someone who has been sober and a member of AA for close to 7 years now, I want to make a few minor corrections to this article.
The writer’s concept that sobriety in AA is simply a trading of lessor suffering is somewhat inaccurate. While life continues to happen once someone is sober, and the pain of finally facing one’s bad behaviors is part of the recovering process, it would be a gross simplification and missunderstanding to assume it is merely trading suffering brand A for suffering brand B.
My own personal experience, in addition to countless others, is a life where I am not contemplating drugs or alcohol on a daily basis, nor suffering from their lack of use. While life still has its ups and downs, my experience is that my problems today are the sort of problems others would dream about having – things like my wife wants to paint the walls kelly green, and I’d rather have them be sage green. Compared to past problems like ‘Do I have hep C?’, or ‘Am I going to prison for the next 5 years?’, I would say I got the better end of the trade.
If that’s your version of the suffering I traded and now must endure, I’ll take it. But to each his own.
In regards to Bill’s last moment – he was very much a human, not a savior. I personally say let him have his last few drinks. It doesn’t invalidate my experience, nor the millions of other folks who now worry about what shade of green to paint their walls. Bill has done enough for us.
Where do you get that I hate smokers?
I ARE one! My point was that I “dislike” hypocrits!!! I would be the first one to commend a person for conquering any addiction by whatever means, be it heroin to bingo…
umm . . .
Maybe you all read a different excerpt than I did . . . but where did it say that they kept the whiskey away from him because they wanted to keep his sobriety pure?
I have been in the hospital before and asked for a drink – and they wouldn’t give it to me either. When my wife had surgery, they wouldn’t give her whatever pain killers she asked for. Hospitals regularly deny people their dying wishes, when those wishes run contrary to their Hippocratic oath. (as in, “please let me die with dignity” – hospitals answer – “No!”)
Guess what – hospitals don’t give out whiskey because its bad for you, not because they goose-step to some cultish ideology, as you and all your dittoheads suggest.
“I am not contemplating drugs or alcohol on a daily basis, nor suffering from their lack of use.” was one reply posted by an AAer. To that, I say “You may be different, but from most active AA types, that’s utter bullshit.”
Attempting to give up a habit without a level of support is pretty damn difficult, or maybe even impossible. Without AA and NA, I’d not have been able to throw the addictions which were going to put me in an early grave. On the other hand, I find it remarkable that the same group of people who claim they aren’t consumed with the daily need for the use of some intoxicant were the ones who were at the same meetings on a daily (or nearly so) basis saying that they need to fight the urge to drink with a herculean effort.
When I was attending regular meetings, I was consumed with feelings of weakness, inadequacy, and compulsions to drink and drug. The AA/NA faithful made it clear that without “the program” I’d not be able to stay off that crap. Somehow, through nearly six years of regular meeting attendance, I never managed to stay off the junk for more than six months at a time.
I don’t remember the last time my grandfather took a meeting, but he died with more than a quarter century of sobriety. Since I left the AA/NA personality cult, I’ve been chemically unenhanced for more than a decade. I credit my ability to stay sober to the fact that I’m not surrounding myself with a bunch of people who tell me regularly that I cannot stay sober without a fight that would have made Sergeant York proud. Instead, I have a family who supports my desire to stay drug and alcohol free… and I stay away from those who cannot respect that.
Bill Wilson’s life was unmanageable when he was drinking, and the first of the twelve steps required that he make the admission that he had no power over alcohol and that his life was a wreck. Sharing his death bed with emphysema, Bill’s life was no longer unmanageable, it was forfeit. Was his desire for a drink the icy grip of the addiction demon, or was it the free will and desire of a grown man for a simple thing he’d willingly denied himself for thirty years? Who cares, and who the fuck are we to judge that. If there were a medical reason to not provide a drink (contraindications of prescribed medication) or if he were in a hospital, then that’s one thing. If people were denying him a drink to ensure that the man they’d deified expired with some level of purity, then I say shame on them.
I have been sober for 17 months. I believe the majority of the “hard core” AAs would agree that Bill should have been given whatever he wanted to make his last days easier. And the fact that he wanted to drink won’t make me want to drink. I still applaud the man today for his efforts. I too would want to drink if I were on my last legs, because it would no longer affect my normal day to day dealings, because my life would no longer be normal. I think most AAs realize and agree with this.
You asked : If, for some of us, a few drinks a day are among those things, and we can remain functional and cordial and unassuming while taking those drinks, is the fact that we crave them really all that bad?
THE ANSWER IS YES. Your words are spoken like a true alcoholic/addict. If you can’t get by without something, be it a few drinks a day or a few hits of something, you’re a waste of air and a failure to anything you have to call family. If you look in the mirror and confess that you need ANYTHING OTHER THAN OXYGEN AND WATER TO MAKE IT THROUGH YOUR DAY – kill yourself or quit whatever it is, because if you don’t do one of those two things, you’re pathetic.
There are a couple of different ways of looking at alcoholism.
“There’s the rational, nuanced way, which is of course how I see it, and I expect you to agree; and then there’s this straw man over here, which I’ve erected to show just how rational my view is.”
The technical term for this is “the fallacy of the excluded middle”, aka the “forced dilemma”. It’s a very old rhetorical trick — Plato loved it — but no more honorable for that.
As the comments thread shows, there are rather a lot of ways of looking at alcholism. Including some views that are both nuanced and robust, but do not much agree with either of the ones given in the post.
I’m curious. Are you interested in starting a discussion here, or are your views pretty much already fixed?
Doug M.
Gone is right; I know exactly what he is talking about. I, too, saw that the path to enlightenment was through consuming only air and water. Of course, I needed more than oxygen in my air (nitrogen and other elements that make up the earth’s atmosphere are helpful), so I guess that Gone is more holier than me.
Gone??
“ANYTHING OTHER THAN OXYGEN AND WATER TO MAKE IT THROUGH YOUR DAY”
I personnally feel I can’t make it through most days with out food.
If its alright with you I’m not going to quit or kill myself.
The only one pathetic here is you.
Had Bill been asked to make the decision about whether or not to allow himself to have a drink on his deathbed before he got into that sad state, I’m confident he would have denied himself. The people who stood by him did the right thing, they helped him maintain his struggle when he was too weak to do it himself. The point of beating alcoholism is to beat the addiction at every turn, not to beat it only when you feel like it, or when it’s convenient. The fact that he asked for it even at the end of his life is evidence that addiction isn’t something you ‘get-over’, it’s something you learn to push back against every moment of your life. I find it sad that he lost the strength to do that torward the end of his life, but the fact that it was the end of his life has no bearing on this. If it were 5 years earlier, should his friend’s have given him a drink? No and hell no. I’m sure drinking would have given him comfort then as well. So what? He fought the good fight, and when he was too weak to continue, his friends carried him. I hope to god my friends would have the character and responsibility to do the same for me if I were in his situation.
This looks like a good post to ask this question.
a buddy of mine graduated from law school. he is a big fan of bourbon. can anyone suggest a good bourbon that i can get him as a gift. all i know is jim bean (i am a beer drinker).
I’m a recovering alcoholic, but feel that if someone is dying or in an immense amount of pain, anything that will relieve them should be allowed. All prescription drugs are is medication the government deems “safe” despite all of the possible side effects. When/If I am on my deathbed, give me heroin if it makes my last days easier. There’s no shame or weakness in that.
Gone, you must be nursing a crack addiction. “If you can’t get by without something, be it a few drinks a day or a few hits of something, you’re a waste of air and a failure to anything you have to call family.”
All or nothing? Anybody with any kind of addiction is an absolute failure? Do you know how much you rely on the existence of imperfect people? This sort of intolerance would be frightening, if it weren’t for the fact that you probably posted your comment from the comfort of your parents’ house, or perhaps 4th period study hall.
GUESS THE FAKE HEADLINE-WEEKEND WRAP
Guess the fake headline, win a link to play Blox Driver fined for not putting dog in seatbelt Woman Bites
AlAnon is a game.
I’m glad this topic didn’t stir up any argument or heated debate. Someone go tell Jack Trimpey, he’d love to expound on this topic.
Linked by Fark.com…large number of hits ensue….
HILLARY KNEW
As I find it hard to believe that anyone corresponding on this is on their deathbed, who are we to judge what a person is saying, thinking or feeling on their deathbed? I have a chronic illness and when my time comes i hope my kids respect whatever wishes i may have……
According to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), there are four requirements for addiction (alcoholism).
1) Need for larger quantities of alcohol for same effect. (Resistance)
2) Cravings.
3) Continued drinking in light of damaging effects.Physical, emotional or social.
4) Inability to stop drinking once started on “any given occasion”, any meaning it only needs to happen once not every time.
So cravings alone do not make you an alcoholic.
“I’d guess that a healthy majority of the people who read the article felt the same way.”
Thanks for berating us you arrogant fuck. It’s good to know we can turn here for some real insight.
I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotamy……….
what say we start in on the pro choice debate….
Michael,
Maker’s Mark or Wild Turkey are both good and reasonably priced. I like Gentleman’s Jack too (not Jack Daniel’s!) Just a little water or ice in a tumbler.
Oh, and Radley, I agree with you. My Uncle is a cardiologist and he sees a bunch of really old patients (age>85) with concerned children asking how they should restrict their father’s/mother’s diet. His answer is often, “Let them eat whatever the hell they damn well please.” Of course, this is in India where the “healthy living” police don’t have quite the grip on society’s balls as they have here.
G
I recommend a book called _Sober for Life_. The author cheated by actually interviewing a bunch of people who’d overcome alcohol problems.
It turns out that some people do very well in a 12-step program. Others do it alone, and/or by deciding it once and for all rather than day-by-day, and/or without spiritual support.
IIRC, the only things that people who succeeded had in common was starting out with at least a year’s abstinance (some did moderate or occasional drinking afterwards) and focusing on the good things they had when they weren’t wrecking their lives.
“Get over yourself. BW did not want that whiskey.”
Of course he did – he was an alcoholic. He not only _wanted_ it, he _needed_ it… That’s the whole point.
Michael,
If you want to give him something really special, ask your local purveyer
for a good “single batch” bourbon. Knob Hill is the only one that comes to mind but there are several others.
Michael you never said what part of the country you’re in-if he’s a really good friend you might dare saunter in with a bottle of Old Potrero-a high end bourbon(whiskey because it’s not made in Kentucky…) by the Frisco-based Maytag heir/saint behind Anchor Steam beer, but I will advise it also runs $68 a fifth…
bevmo.com, liquorama.com
otherwise 1.75 liters of Maker’s runs $28 @ COSTco, & Sam’s Clubs selection is OK(per Federal law you don’t need membership to buy booze-or prescriptions- @ either) & Trader Joe’s is cheap where they’re allowed to sell booze
On my deathbed I want a super-size glass of dessert wine to celebrate life’s banquet and, yes, to calm my nerves. Furthermore, I want my friends and family and caregivers to be shit-faced too. Any prune-faced Puritans in the room can go take a laxative.
Heroin is the strongest, most potent opiate there is. Having known a few terminal cancer patients, I can say that next time one of my family or friends ends up like that, I’m buying them a big huge bag of smack. That hospital grade morphine takes the edge off a little, but doesn’t quite do the trick, especially when it’s close to the end. (I’ve never used either one myself) Damn the government for thinking they have the power to stop the termianlly ill from obtaining it. Don’t live by other people’s moral codes. Every person is different.
Oh yeah, and I guess since I’m such a pathetic ass for needing food, love, shelter, etc. I suppose I’ll go kill myself. If anybody needs a gas chamber operator to eradicate the unpure, I’m sure GONE will be happy to assist.
“What right did the people around him have to not respect his request?”
Every right.
What you want to ask is ‘what duty did they have to acced to his request?’
None.
What right did he have that could have forced those around him into doing as he demanded?
None.
At the age of 38, I’ve been sober almost 11 months, and it’s largely been through the program of AA. I am convinced that AA groups can suffer from the same self-righteousness and infighting that other groups do. (Just ask any AA about a Group Conscience meeting). But my larger experience with AA has been positive without a doubt. The thrust of the program is not some evangelical temperance movement, but learning to live one’s own life–and nobody else’s. Humility, honesty, and accountability for one’s own actions–that’s about it; other people’s actions don’t enter into it.
As to whether or not to give Bill W. that final drink, it’s an interesting quetion. In the Big Book of AA, the authors write about keeping bottles of booze around specifically to help alcoholics who are suffering from the shakes. When Bill W.’s sponsor, Ebby, was sent to rehab to dry up, a couple of members of AA put him on the train with a half pint bottle, so he could stand the trip. So I don’t think dogmatic piety is the rule in AA, or what it’s “founding fathers” intended.
If it were a question of Bill W. getting his own last drinks, I don’t think any AA would stop him: the program is a choice. But to fetch a drink for a dying man? Interesting dilemma. I can see how an alcoholic wouldn’t want to do the fetching, knowing how much pain they’ve been through because of drinking. However, there is a precedent for a sober AA member bringing liquor to someone who “needs it” to stop shaking or to make a bad situation manageable.
In the long term, though, Bill W. did a hell of a job. I’d like to think I’d have helped him any way I can, whether in the unusual circumstance of a deathbed request for liquor, or–as is much more often the case–being there to take a phone call from an AA who is fighting the temptation to take a drink.
everyone is allowed to have their own opinions about this. I too am a recovering addict. I understand where bill w. was coming from, a gun shot wound started my my last relapse. I wanted the pain gone too. I wasn’t blessed with the gift of death. I was cursed with 2 years of drug and alcohol abuse. seeing as he was on his death bed, I guess to people w/o a problem this could seem unfair. but I know that I have a disease that has a contract out on my life. when I die I want to have a clean and sober mind, body and soul. if he was denied alcohol it is because he was surrounded by people in the a recovery based program who would deny him that “right.” if it were my friend dying that way after 30+ years clean I probably would to, if he survived daily for multiple years w/o a drink.
but that’s just me and my views. in closing, don’t be surprised when an addict or alcoholic uses, be surprised when they don’t
When my father was dying of lung cancer, he desperately wanted a drink, but he was on pain medication–the doctors said don’t mix it with alcohol. Were we wrong to withhold it, or simply cautious about overdosing him? Could that have been a factor in this case?
Very intersting thread. I am a recovering alcoholic myself was a regular attendee at meetings. I no longer attend, I don’t feel the need to. When I feel the need to, I know it will always be there and I’ll go rather than have a drink.
I think the arguments for and against letting Bill have his last drinks are all valid but I tend to agree with those that were with him during his last days. If you know anything about AA and Bill W., you know that the man conquered immense obstacles in his ongoing recovery. To acquiesce to his request in possibly the weakest moment of his life, would have gone against all principles he espoused and taught. I think it would have done a lot of damage to him spiritually had he been allowed to have those drinks.
Did he physically want those drinks? Yes, as a recovering alcoholic, I want a drink at least a few times a week. The cravings are always there.
Did he mentally want those drinks? Yes. Addicts are obsessive. Some how we’ve convinced ourselves when we raise the glass that , “This time will be different.” When it’s just more of the same destructive behavior. Any AA worth his salt will tell you they would love to drink like a sober person. Fact is, we can’t.
Did he spiritually want those drinks? No. I am convincved he didn’t. As addicts, if our spirits are still good in nature, it’s all we have left to hold on to for a fulfilling life. That hope that we can be better. Bill didn’t want that drink in the way it most counted, in the only way a true alcoholic couldn’t want one. With his soul.
It must have been very difficult for those around him not to give in, but they knew what he needed.
I would not have been disappointed or otherwise negatively affected had Bill been allowed those last drinks. He was probably surrounded by drunks (AAs will understand) and the fact that they didn’t give him that whiskey speaks volumes for their strength of will that they received through the gift of this man and those who supported him. And each other.
I’m sober 5 1/2 years, counting the days?…you bet! If the man wanted a drink on his deathbed, give it to him! I’ve never been one to subscribe to AA or there beliefs, with the help of a loving wife, who needs them damn meetings?
As a RECOVERED ALCOHOLIC, what I have is a “DAILY REPRIEVE, CONTINGENT UPON MY SPIRITUAL CONDITION.” Perhaps, Bill’s spiritual condition was out of whack… due to the medications he was given. We will never know if Bill W. really wanted to take that drink that day or was it simply a test? Does anyone really think that a drink or two would have eased Bill’s pain? I know that for this Alcoholic, it sure as heck would not have sufficed. My sobriety is not contingent upon whether Bill had that drink or not! I thank God that Bill was instrumental in starting the AA program, thus saving many lifes…..YOURS,as well as mine!If Bill’s pain was PHYSICAL rather than MENTAL OR SPIRTUAL, then the issue should be …..WHY DID THE HOSPITAL FALL SHORT ON THAT ISSUE and not do the next right thing? The booze or lack of, was not going to take away the pain.I have a “REAL” issue with the person who comments on the cigs and coffee. Most AA’s work on that issue, also. Glad to know that there are some “PERFECT JUDGEMENTAL ASSHOLES” still out there! Saving the world because they are such SAINTS! This is not only an AA’s problem, but thousands of NORMAL person’s problem. I will say this about that…..A husband never left me because I drank too much coffee, my kids were never taken from me because I smoked too many cigs, I never was thrown in jail because of smoking and coffee. I was never institionalized because of either of those addictions.I never was a threat to society because of those addictions and YOU and your loved ones have never been in my path of havoc because of those addictions.I never slept with your husband or wife because I was too “HIGH” on caffine and wanted smokes…more smokes!”RUN FOR YOUR LIFE HERE COMES THAT COFFEE DRINKER??? I don’t think so! Wake up and smell the damn coffee and cigs! At least…the very least….. you can still do that…because many of us are sober and didn’t kill you!!!!
People who get sober in AA are people who are READY to get sober – who have had enough and are willing to do anything to stop drinking.
For those people AA offers an approach the guarantees a drunk will get sober and stay sober – “don’t drink and go to meetings, one day at a time”.
For those people who have a problem with drugs and/or alcohol, who would disparage AA , I would tell you the same thing I tell someone I “sponsor” in AA. If you don’t think you are in the best AA group go out and find another. There are groups of all types, sizes and focus. If you encounter people who are tying to “run your life: in AA then stay away from them. If you have found some other way to stay sober then do that. Just stay sober and learn to live life on life’s terms.
By definition, there are a lot of sick people in AA and so you won’t have to look hard to find members who say and do stupid things. If you are looking for an excuse to drink or get high you will have no trouble finding all sorts of justifications to do – in AA or out of AA. But, if you have had enough and are willing to go any lengths to get sober than AA has an answer – the twelve steps.
Note that I said “an” answer. Even Bill Wilson never claimed that AA was “the” answer; what Bill stressed was the need for a fundamental alteration of the alcoholics perception of himself and his relationship to the world around him. Bill called that a “spiritual experience” others call it a “moment of clarity. If Bill W. or any good AA thought that that chanting a mantra or lighting candles would accomplish that they would have no trouble encouraging that or anything else that helped an alcoholic get and stay sober.
What Bill Wilson talked about was that the 12 Steps is something that worked FOR HIM – and the other people who had joined with him. A “sober” member of AA offers to share his or her experience with what they did that resulted in them getting and staying and sober. This approach is one approach that is proven to work and can be seen in how AA grew from an initial group of 100 in the late thirties to millions of members today.
People who use AA for ego gratification, to boss people around or try and run people’s lives are not well. They are what we in AA call “disease carriers”, people who should be avoided at all costs. If you have come to AA for help and the misfortune to run into such a person or a group filled with such persons I am sorry for you if that keeps you from coming back. I can only hope and pray that if you ever do go back you will be as fortune as I was in finding a sponsor who had been through the 12 steps to take me through them and a group that reinfoced both of us in going through the steps.
That was more than 14 years ago, my life is far better than when I came to AA (better, not perfect) and I have AA to thank for that.
Peace out.
Your article fails to mention whether Bill was of sound mind and not already influenced by medication. Working in the medical field with cancer patients for 17 years and also being in AA for 11 I wonder if the author has walk in either the shoes of the alcoholic or of someone dying. It to easy to make comments when your clueless. I laugh at people you tell me how to raise my children when they have none of their own. Being alcoholic is something only another alcoholic can understand, and my guess is that Bill would be smile down on us for not letting him drink, I would. Granting a person his dying wish isn’t always the best or smartest thing to do, what if it was to kill my enemy, or leave my spouse in financial ruin. Lastly we all should be ashamed for taking this mans most private moment in life and making it a public forum.
jgg
To the people who are commenting on the ‘brainwashing’ and hypocrisy of AA meetings who have never been to one, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Until you’ve been to a meeting all you have are assumptions about what goes on there. Sure, AA is far from infallable because as it says in the preamble “We are not Saints”.
If you have ever run into an intractable, stiff necked self righteous pig/asshole of an AAer who you couldn’t stand to be around, I gurantee you that when he was using, he was the sickest, sorriest bastard in the universe and the reason he’s so inflexible now is because it is the only way he can keep his shit together.
To the people who have commented on ‘trading one addiction for another’ (superhippie) you REALLY don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. First of all, almost every alcoholic worth his salt was addicted to nicotine and caffeine before he became an active drinker and most of the guys I know who have been around for two or three years don’t smoke or drink coffee anymore either. Second meetings, good meetings are not about self-pity and quasi-religion self-pity is what active alcoholics do, recovering addicts strive to see their lives in the terms of the good things they have, not the bad. We try to live by principles that stress helping the common good as opposed to our own selfish needs and self destructive impulses. As to being a ‘quasi-religion’ do you mean the fact that the program encourages an individual to foment some sort of spirituality in his life spirituality on his own terms, not to be confused with religion, in an effort to relieve the terrible burden of self will that almost killed the person in question? Yeah, that must be the most terrible thing I’ve ever heard of.
To the people who were in AA and aren’t anymore, if you can do it without the meetings, more power to you. I have found that spending a couple of hours a week talking with other alcoholics about staying sober has helped me tremendously and a small price to pay for a modicum of serenity and that’s what the program is about, service and sanity, strictly voluntary.
As far as Bill wanting to have a few drinks before he shuffled off this mortal coil? I wouldn’t have been the one to say no. He fought the good fight, going to meet his maker with a few belts in his belly would not have undermined a half of lifetime of service. Anyone who thinks so is, in my opinion, one of those sick, sick bastards I mentioned earlier.
I’d just like to say that I have a serious philosphical difficulty with twelve-step programs, and I have beaten addictions to nicotine and cocaine both, so what I say is relevant to my own experience, if not yours.
If I perceive myself as powerless in the face of an addiction, I cannot overcome it because I believe I am helpless. Whereas if I perceive myself as having complete power of my addiction, I am no longer helpless and have a choice.
I perceive AA members as descending into a learnt helplessness that they never recover from. They perceive their addiction as something more powerful than themselves, and must resort to support from their ‘higher power’ when confronted by their addiction. They are still addicted and still ruled by their addiction. Their life revolves around the denial of the urges engendered by their addiction.
AA helps many people to live better lives than they would without the program, but every long-time AA member I know is tainted by the malaise of surrender to their addictions.
If you are an AA member, and you see yourself as having moved past that part of your life, or want to, then I would seriously consider putting the twelve steps aside – they’ve done what you needed them to.
If you can become more powerful than your addiction, you are free to want a drink and fulfill that desire. If the drink doesn’t fulfill that want, you didn’t really want a drink.
Of course, the big problem is that alchoholics aren’t addicted to alchohol. They need something else, and they sublimate that desire into drink, which of course cannot fulfill the real desire being felt.
AA is a lot like purgatory. Many people have to spend time there, but no-one should want to stay.
If the twelve steps get you off the booze, then good, but if you can’t get yourself off the steps, all you’ve done is make yourself less dangerous to others. You’re no better or happier, but at least your habit is far less harmful now.
Had Bill been asked to make the decision about whether or not to allow himself to have a drink on his deathbed before he got into that sad state, I’m confident he would have denied himself.
Yes, and there are countless pregnant women who make a commitment to going through “natural” childbirth with no epidural. However, once the pain actually starts, a big chunk of those women change their minds in a hurry.
Bill W. changed his mind. He was an adult, and he had the right to make his own decisions. And to answer a few people’s questions about hospitals and alcohol; YES. I work in a cancer ward as a nursing assistant, and I’ve seen many patients request a drink or a cigarette as their final days pass. We don’t have provide such things ourselves, but we do allow the families to provide them, and (on occasion) we may be able to provide for the patient’s request ourselves. We have a special outside balcony where patients can sit in a wheelchair with their families for a cigarette, and more than once I’ve seen a patient having a shot of bourbon or two.
I don’t know who his nurse was, but I feel that she wasn’t doing her job. If a dying person might find some small comfort in a bit of alcohol, there is no reason to deny him, so long as he has been properly warned of the possible dangers of mixing alcohol with narcotic pain medications. Of course, with a terminal patient who’s in a lot of pain, this is rarely a concern.
There are people dying every day from this US occupation of Iraq and you’re worried about 3 shots of whisky over 34 years ago? Sounds like you are definitely struggling with some serious issues of your own to try and expand on such gossip about Bill. This was never “his” program, if you ever knew anything about the program you’d know it’s a community. Perhaps he started the idea, but he never paraded himself like Al Gore did after he invented “the internet.”
Iâ??m an alcoholic too who works those 12 steps of Bill Wâ??s, I think itâ??s real funny what Bill W. said there. He had a few AAâ??rs who preceded him rolling over in their graves and others alive to roll over in their sleep. I wonder that he transited giggling. And hi to Farkers ! Comments on this article at http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=947867
radley-
for what it’s worth, your speculation on reasons for joining AA are pointless – it’s like me commenting on what it’s like to suffer racism in America as a black man (i am white).
not out of haughtiness i have to say that we will never know what it is like to be another, or in another’s shoes.
if bill had asked calmly and peacefully for the whiskey, my feeling is it should have been given to him. but if he asked from the crazed, restless ‘jonesing’ place i have seen so many shaky AA members in, anyone who loved him and valued HIS values would have denied him.
namaste!
very interesting comments, esp from Chris. “Addiction” is self-defining, there is no way that one can have power over it. As a recovering Alcoholic, I am not “still an addict”,and I am not still “ruled by my addiction.” It took me 2 (almost 3) marriages to figure out I was a drunk, and innumerable down-and-out situations. Suffice it to say that when I quit, I had the shakes and couldn’t hold my hands steady enough to take that drink that I needed every two hours.
As far as “you’re not better or happier”, I think Chris is simply being judgemental of others. I, for one, have been better and happier in oh so many ways, and that was 17 years ago. I used to go to meetings daily, then weekly, then years later, now and then. Now I go when I need to or want to, but I still keep the 12 Steps in mind, they are what saved my life……and why would anyone want to give up something that saved their life?
“One Day at a Time”
Have read many of the posted comments!
I am absolutely delighted with the many diverse opinions about what alcoholism is and about what AA is or isn’t. At least people are talking.
Unfortunately many of the comments reveal a lack of knowledge about both topics.
Alcoholism is not evil. It is a disease recognized by both the American Medical Association and the United States government.
Alcoholism is not a crime. It is a sickness.
AA is not a qausi-religious organization. It is a spiritual group; if you want it to be.
You don’t have to be an alcoholic in order to be a member of AA. All you need is a desire to stop drinking
AA has kept and is keeping more people sober than the medical institutes; more than all the churches; etc.
Well there are many issues here. The founder of AA asking for a drink must seem afwful ‘bad press’ for some that desire the preservation of an image but to be honest I’d have given the poor bugger the entire bottle. The man had been dry 30 years. All he wanted was a bit of whiskey. He was on his deathbed so it’s unless you think his ghost is going to come back and torment the living with his drunken activity where was the harm? Shame on the people at his side.
I’m a recovering alcoholic. I’ve been sober for about 3.5 years. I agree w/ the person that commmented that Bill W. friends were strong for him when it was beyond his capacity. I would never buy liquor for any alcoholic on his deathbed, Bill W. not withstanding. How the hell do people who don’t have chemical dependency problems and have never been involve w/ AA have any idea what goes on there? Anybody who can earnestly say that AA does more harm than good is just plain wrong. If AA saves one alcoholic’s life, it’s worth all of the petty circumstances etc. that naturally happen in formal groups of people.
RUBE….
” “What right did the people around him have to not respect his request?”
Every right.
What you want to ask is ‘what duty did they have to acced to his request?’
None.
What right did he have that could have forced those around him into doing as he demanded?
None.
Posted by: Rube on May 10, 2004 11:53 AM”
I shall remember this when standing over you on your death bed. For the rest, more kind hearted souls, i shall try to honor your requests.
And for those here…I have smoked…i quit when i turned 30 as i promised myself. No support group no patch no nothing just stopped. It is simply mind over matter. The Human mind is the most powerful force known. If you cant kick a habit with sheer will then you are too weak to survive…..mortals….how repulsive :)
A Man, A Drink, A Crime
I couldn’t agree more with The Agitator’s remarks about Bill Wilson, the founder of AA. People are so damned righteous. Give a dying man his shot of whiskey. I’ll be one irate son-of-a-bitch if I can’t get a simple request…
I am neither shocked or horrified by Bill W. asking for a drink, just human, nor by the hospital refusing to give him one, last time I checked they didn’t serve alcohol.
i am on the other hand shocked and appalled that someone in the medical profession would give out information on a patient.
What the fuck, do you even know what alcoholism is? Know something about your subject before writing.
I smoke pot most days because I prefer that mind-state to my normal, over-analytical, somewhat anxious state.
This is not an addiction (though I probably am addicted due to the nicotine involved), this is a habit.
Alcohol changes your mental state. So does marijuana. LSD, DMT, Ecstasy, Sugar, Caffeine, Nutmeg, Cocoa, Vicodin, valium, Heroin (and other opiates, including codeine) – all of these are psychotropic compounds, meaning they are psychically active (active in the psyche, not psychic :).
You can change your mental state in a variety of ways, not just chemical. Meditation, exercise, music, repetitive rhythms, extreme physical states, the list is almost endless.
Many vehicles with one passenger – Metaprogramming.
Choose your mental state. People do this every day, mostly subconciously. Are you going to choose the governmentally-sanctioned Prozac? Do you think thats a good idea? What about the anti-psychotic drug Seproquel?
Choose your mental state precursor. If its chemical rather than personal/physical what’s the difference?
If someone wants a shot of whiskey on their death bed, irrespective of the reasons why or the life that has previously been lead, you give the whiskey. Any moral or ethical argument you want to base on that is your own dilemma and is irrelevant to the person who is dying.
Somebody asked, What right did he have to the whiskey?
I answer, No more right than any of us have to anything. But damn, give the man his whiskey.
I smoke pot most days because I prefer that mind-state to my normal, over-analytical, somewhat anxious state.
This is not an addiction (though I probably am addicted due to the nicotine involved), this is a habit.
Alcohol changes your mental state. So does marijuana. LSD, DMT, Ecstasy, Sugar, Caffeine, Nutmeg, Cocoa, Vicodin, valium, Heroin (and other opiates, including codeine) – all of these are psychotropic compounds, meaning they are psychically active (active in the psyche, not psychic :).
You can change your mental state in a variety of ways, not just chemical. Meditation, exercise, music, repetitive rhythms, extreme physical states, the list is almost endless.
Many vehicles with one passenger – Metaprogramming.
Choose your mental state. People do this every day, mostly subconciously. Are you going to choose the governmentally-sanctioned Prozac? Do you think thats a good idea? What about the anti-psychotic drug Seproquel?
Choose your mental state precursor. If its chemical rather than personal/physical what’s the difference?
If someone wants a shot of whiskey on their death bed, irrespective of the reasons why or the life that has previously been lead, you give the whiskey. Any moral or ethical argument you want to base on that is your own dilemma and is irrelevant to the person who is dying.
Somebody asked, What right did he have to the whiskey?
I answer, No more right than any of us have to anything. But damn, give the man his whiskey.
OK. I know this is way late and no one will read it, but I have to write something anyway. All this pontificating about honoring deathbed wishes is a bunch of schiat. It’s all too easy to create this fantasy of some dude sitting in a leather chair with a shawl on his knees being denied a dignified shot of whiskey before he goes. The reality was likely entirely different. Have you seen anyone die of emphysema? It’s likely that he couldn’t complete short sentences – that he weighed 100 pounds – lived on a diet of baby food and saline and had coughing/wheezing jags that lasted several minutes, each one of sounding like it might be his last. Growing up in Virginia, the motherland of tobacco, and having a large extended family, I’ve seen lots of emphysema and lung cancer and the end isn’t pretty. I, and just about everyone else, certainly share the sentiment that last wishes should be granted. However, when I consider the real-life hospital death-bed scenes I’ve had the pleasure to witness, I cannot for the life of me imagine giving any of those wretched souls a shot of whiskey. For one thing, given their frail condition and the diet they are on, how long do you think they could hold down a shot of straight whiskey? Would you feel noble when they heaved? How about if the coughing jag killed them? And in spite of everyone saying he should have had his wishes honored, there were undoubtedly people at his side who would have been horrified at the thought of giving a gravely ill man a bottle of rotgut without even considering the AA angle. I think most everyone who thinks his wishes should have been honored would feel quite different in a real-world scenario. Looking at someone who is about to die and has a very hard time breathing would probably make you think twice about handing over the bottle of Jack.
gp . . . I read your post and thank you for the rather sobering perspective.
Pun somewhat intended.
Brandy says,
“Yes, and there are countless pregnant women who make a commitment to going through “natural” childbirth with no epidural. However, once the pain actually starts, a big chunk of those women change their minds in a hurry.”
Sure, but with help and support and reassurance, that pregnant woman can get through labor without an epidural, if that’s what she wants, and she’s set up her support ahead of time to get her through it.
The question is, of course, does she have the right to choose the epidural? Sure. But in the moment of pain, she may not be as capable of making the decision for herself. She is at her most vulnerable in those late stages of labor, and pain medication sounds great. (And I speak from experience, having had both medicated and non-medicated births.)
I see the issue the same way for Bill. I would hope that this is something that had been talked about beforehand, and that his loved ones did what they thought he would want. Sure, he had the right to drink. But I would hope that ultimately the people who were around him were acting to support him in what his wishes were before those moments of ultimate vulnerability.
Several years ago I was night-sitting for a man who was dying of cancer. He was a long-time member of AA and the director of a half-way house. He wished to die at home, which is why I was there keeping an eye on him. His doctor and his legal guardian both showed me where the whiskey was kept in the room. I was instructed to give it to him when/if he asked for it. He did ask for it and I damn well gave it to him. When someone is dying, and there is a chance that a drink will take the edge off..who am I to deny him? The end is painful enough…if it helps, give it to him. The drinking in his last days did not diminish everything he had done in his life, nor did it diminish the value of his soberity.
I’m 52 and had my last drink 3/7/75. I spent about 20 of those years in AA, but eventually left after learning the truth on the ‘net: AA doesn’t work. It’s voodoo. Smoke and mirrors. Nonsense medicine and nonsense religion. It’s a trick on drunks. More people get and stay sober on their own or in other programs than do in AA. The numbers are out there if you look for them. Waving a dead frog in a sock around your head at Midnight on an even numbered day is just as effective. If you’re ready to stop drinking any outside influence will work – and often your own gumption will work, too.
Stupid bad drinking is not a disease. It is a habit for most, an addiction in some. Where is the germ, the faulty gene, the bad brain wave? Despite some hinky claims, no researcher has ever confirmed any physical indicator in the body that someone is or will become an alcoholic. The DSM-IV, used by nearly every shrink to diagnose mental illness, doesn’t even use the word alcoholism to describe addictive drinking. AA invented this so-called disease and they control most of the information about it, forcing generations of people to pursue the chimera of sobriety, as AA alone defines sobriety.
Your own eyes are proof of AA’s near uselessness. Anyone who’s been in AA for more than 10 years can tell you that practically the entire face of an AA group changes after 5 years. At ten years almost no one “original” is left. I saw this happen twice. Yeah, a few hard core authoritarian types hang in there so they can boss people around, but almost everyone else leaves. At any given moment most of the people in AA are fairly new. AA’s own membership survey taken every five years confirms this fact. I know _a lot_ of people like myself who one day just walked away from AA and never drank again.
Ah, I’m not going to convince any steppers and the rest of you know better. Poor Bill Wilson. Poor Bill Wilson. Pour Bill Wilson a drink on his deathbed, you cruel freakin’ steppers.
Bill had more balls than all you active addicts that have given up, Staying sober is not for pussys. Its for people of character and real honesty. For all of you that are happy waking up in vomit, piss and shirt, heres one to ya! eat, drink and be miserable John S
Bill had more balls than all you active addicts that have given up, Staying sober is not for pussys. Its for people of character and real honesty. For all of you that are happy waking up in vomit, piss and shirt, heres one to ya! eat, drink and be miserable John S
radioman, sounds like you’ve got some issues. Time for a meeting. Remember AA revolving door—-always there for you.
“voodoo” my ass. it saved YOUR ass for at least 5 years, didn’t it?
One Day At a Time
“radioman, sounds like you’ve got some issues. Time for a meeting. Remember AA revolving door—-always there for you.
“voodoo” my ass. it saved YOUR ass for at least 5 years, didn’t it?
One Day At a Time”
Typical reply from the AA faithful. AA simply refuses to believe that the help of a good family and an individual’s faith in himself is more than sufficient to stay sober and sane. Do meetings help? I’m sure they do if you’ve noplace else to turn or are hopelessly confused. It surely worked for me in the beginning.
More important was the love of my family, a good therapist who actually helped me figure out the root of the problem (and no, the root of the problem wasn’t an inability to put down the f*ing glass or to keep the spike out of my arm… that was merely the most visible symptom), and a renewed faith in God. Trite statements like “Don’t drink and come to meetings” keep you from drinking, but they don’t address the problem. Listening to old drunks and newcomers tell their war stories doesn’t address teh problem. They may keep you from drinking, but they don’t address the root of the problem. Not at all.
“Don’t hang around the people, places, and things that make you want to drink.” Does that make sense? Sure, it does. It’s a way to keep you coming to meetings, I suppose, but the fact is that it’s pretty difficult to learn to cope with the real world when you are pretty much told “Only hang out at meetings and AA events and where nobody’s doing drugs or drinking.” Eventually, the alcoholic will find himself at a wedding or a bar mitzvah or a graduation party for his kids and AA’s trite sayings and meeting strategy do squat for that.
Can surrounding yourself with the AA crowd keep you sober? Maybe. Funny enough, I know damn few people who’ve stayed around long enough to collect a 15-year medallion… One I could have claimed as being clean, sober, and happy for the last fifteen plus on September 4, 2004 had I not stopped going to meetings in 1993.
aa, na, ca, sla, and ea are all means to an end, as are any spritual programs. I personally am a member of na and feel that if not for the program i wouldn’t be here today. I have tried to get clean on my own and know that I am not strong enough. on the other hand I know people that have gotten clean on their own or with meds, church, and doctors and it has worked.
the 12 steps are the only way I have been able to find any peace and meaning in life. I like anyother “12-step nazi” have partial views about bill’s situation and how it was handled. but looking on the other side I understand what non addicts think too, and that is ok. what we all need to realize is what works for me may not work for you and vise-versa.
I respect all views expressed on the thread, but to the people that are getting offended I would like to go ahead and say this; fuck your feelings. they are only feelings and will change to something else within the next ten minutes.
god bless and thanks for the great view points. J.T.
doooood, i didn’t realise so many “recovering addicts” had internet access, i thought they were all working for painting contractors
Dillir,
I think it is rude and insensative of you to imply that all painting contractors are drunks or druggies. This is a very serious matter and you should be ashamed of yourself. Did God take the week off and put you in charge of judging? Like McKenzie Phillips said “One day at a time” and pass your weight in salt.
Book, I’m sorry you fel that way, but you must remeber that mackenzie phillips was a drug adicted whore, and valerie married that dunk from Van Halen, and I’m sure you heard about Scheiders problems with percocets
Dillir,
I think you are confusing her with Karen Carpenter. Don’t turn this very important banter into a trivia game. Valerie saw the good in that man everyone else said was a pill popping needle junkie. I will pray for you.
I guess what bothers me is that it’s assumed he was denied the whiskey for some moral purpose. How many people in ICU get whiskey? Has it crossed anybodys mind that the whiskey was denied because of hospital policy?
Has it crossed anybodys mind that the whiskey was denied because of hospital policy?
That has been mentioned at least once in this thread. One of the things that I read here that made the most sense, barring the morality issues surrounding what happened is a post by one gp a bit further up . . . they talk about emphysema and what it’s like when someone is dying of it. Recommend you read it if you’re trying to avoid the morality angle.
Has it even occurred to anyone that at that point he was probably already high on Morphine or the like? So he wasn’t really “all there” now was he? So let’s over-analyze a request made from a man on his deathbed, in ICU, in a hospital, who was more than likely high as a kite, seeing that he was in his right mind, shall we?
Does it matter whether or not he was in his right mind? Not really. The bugger was going to die anyway wasn’t he? Denying him that is a bit unfair.
100 . . . thanks for all the stuff.
dosn’t really matter what any of us think bill w. died without having taken a drink for over 30 years. he died sober, and his legacy lives on.
Addiction
Is blogging addictive? I certainly like to blog with my…
lets use an overused religious phrase – What Would Bill W do? in other words, if his friend was an AA success story and was in the same situation, would he encourage the nurse to give his friend the drink or would he ask her not to? from what i know of him, i would say probably not.
and of course, as others already said, that man had to fight the urge to drink every day and when he was so sick, he didn’t have the strength to resist anymore, and as AA teaches, thats when you need others to help you. and lastly of course, as someone already said, mixing alchohol with some of the medications he was on would be terrible
Why do you care? That was a long rant in favor of having given Bill a couple of drinks. What was the motivation?
It has several logical flaws: 1 Bill wasn’t one of those people who could have a couple of drinks a day 2 Your arguments are based on physical considerations only. Some people, Bill included, beleive that spiritual concerns are important. 3 “what right did they have to not respect his request?” They knew Bill. They were entrusted with his care.
Thus they had the ‘right’ to take make decisions for him. One doesn’t give a child so much candy that he gets sick, one doesn’t give a suicidal person a gun, one doesn’t aquiesce to unreasonable requests from people not in command of their faculties. Given that they knew Bill (and you didn’t) might they not have been in a better position to determine if his requests were in harmony with the rest of his life as he had lived it than you?
You people don’t understand. Bill W. was an alcoholic. Drinking whiskey could have killed him…wait a minute, he was dying anyway…sorry, nevermind.
Jesus said, near death, “Why hast thou forsaken me?” No matter what spititual path one has taken, death is a hard taskmaster and I’m sure that when I die it won’t ( although I hope different) be a time when i feel the presence of God , but rather a deep depression and resignation. All we can do is forgive the dying. I have faith that God will forgive me however weak and fearful I might be at the time. Bill wanted oblivion. Had he been able to hold the whiskey down he would have demanded three more, and three more. He was a great man despite his addictions. He died like we all do. Let him rest in peace.
‘
Well, after many years of sobriety or abstinance I have to admitt that Bill W gave us 12 steps, but the word alcohol could be change to whatever problems we may have, and even change them as time goes by, and alcohol abuse is a form of escaping reality, as unhealthy sex, drugs, tv, books etc… now I am powerless over my emotios…there have been many thousands of people who have returned to moderate drinking, after getting accptance on life and its terms…
This entire discussion misses the point of both AA and Bill Wilson’s life. I am 60, have been sober 12 years and expect to ask for a drink before I die. I also expect my wife, my children and my friends (most of whom are in AA or Alanon) to not let me have it.
My sponsor “51 year Frank” B. died without the need of alcohol. He was so heavily sedated he couldn’t have swallowed one if it had been offered, nor would it have had any effect on him. When Bill died both AA and pallative medicene were still in childhood, both have grown a lot since the 1970′s and become both better and stronger!
Well, I must say that this topic received more responses than brands of booze available, so naturally I will add one more.
In the first place, if I had been given alcohol every time I had asked for it, I would not be here. Who are any of us to assume that if he wanted alcohol to kill the pain, that it could have,(because it does not kill cancer pain) and if so, the purpose of killing the pain as for what, so he could enjoy dying? Who are we to not know that a true miracle could have happened and turned his cancer into dust, and he improved, only to be right back under the influence of a phenomenon of craving beyond any human control? Would you then only be enraged that someone would dare to give alcohol to a man who had been known throughout the world for giving his efforts for 30 years to help other alcoholics? Would you have then said how could someone do that knowing someone couldn’t possibly be in his “right” mind on his death bed? Would you just smugly say, “See, told ya AA didn’t work…” What would your take on this be then? I am inclined to beleive that the people he had spent his life with and had seen him though the hell he had survived probably had a better insight on what was best for Bill W. than you or I.
I imagine that could Bill still speak here on earth, he would tell us to keep this simple, and to keep coming back. But he can’t. That’ why he left the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous behind. Check out the first three words on page 112. It may provide a moment of clarity for the ones who think tht AA is voodoo, or a bunch of hypocrites who need a pat on the back. That’s debatable, though, sounds like ignorance and resentments to me. If you beleive that will power will override any desire, try taking a pack of ex-lax and WILL yourself not to go to the bathroom for a week. Think about it.
In closing, I’d like to point out that GOD can’t even change what happened the day that Bill took his dignified and well deserved last breath into another realm, so why do you think you can change it on the internet? Feelings are not facts. Let the man rest in peace.
It comes as no surprise that Bill Wilson would ask for a drink. He never worked the steps of AA. Whas into LSD big time and was an overall nutcase that belonged in the cracker factory under close supervision. He used AA for his persoanl gain to the point that he stole funds that others woudl cover up and pay.
However, the fact remains that his work, honest or not, saved the lies of millions of us alcoholics. So out of deceit and insanity came good.
for more on Billw check :http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-aacoa.html
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Hello Radley,
Happened in here yesterday from a Google search regarding Bill Wilson’s experiences with taking LSD… glad to have found your site.
I missed the 2004 release of, and the Washington Post review of Susan Cheever’s book, so it was news to me that Bill Wilson had requested alcohol prior to his death, although it didn’t surprise me. What does surprise me is that so many assume that he remained completely abstinent from alcohol for those thirty-six challenging years.
Based on what I have come to know about addiction, and people, I would not be at all surprised if we were to ever learn that Bill Wilson drank again, either while Alcoholics Anonymous was spreading across the world, or on his death bed, which nurses and attendants may have wisely not recorded in their notes.
You asked: Does anyone think that the millions of people Bill Wilson’s program helped off of alcohol would go back to drinking upon hearing that he “gave in” once he was within inches of dying? Would it somehow have invalidated AA’s track record?
My never-humble opinion: No; the millions of people helped off of alcohol in A.A. would not go back to drinking if or had Bill Wilson drank again while on his deathbed–chances are, they would have prayed for him instead. Nor do I believe it would have invalidated AA?s track record, as they would have done with the information precisely what Ms. Cheever did: point to it as further evidence that alcoholism is an incurable illness characterized by an obsession and compulsion to drink: ?The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.? – p.30 Alcoholics Anonymous
As others who have commented here, I too was once an active member of AA and NA–for fourteen years–but have stopped attending meetings a little over three years ago. I had also worked ?in the field? as a NYS credentialed alcoholism counselor for six years in 12-step based treatment programs, and was seven years abstinent from illegal drugs and alcohol when I found myself, nine years ago, planning my own suicide as childhood sexual abuse issues were surfacing. I am thankful today that I chose to pick up a drink again instead, and persisted in my recovery efforts, despite being pigeonholed by both my peers and treatment providers as having surrendered to ?the disease.?
I shall be forever grateful to AA and NA for opening the door to a new way of life for me, however, since I no longer fully subscribe to their beliefs and approach to addiction and recovery, I can no longer carry the twelve step message, and therefore no longer attend their meetings.
I still firmly believe there are benefits to self-help, and sharing with others… now just to find them… or hope they find me.
look i have known nuns on their death bed scream out using every imaginable swear words demanding sex although they have remained true to their vows. When a person is dying his brain and emotions go hay wire. If bill asked for drink when he was dying it was his mind playing tricks on him.
I have read Bills story many times he was human but the one thing he was grateful for was his sobriety. He would have been horrified if he had realised what he was doing. Anyone who has had a bad illness knows how your brain does not seem to belong to you with all the crazy thoughts that enter and torment you. I would still respect Bill if he had have taken a drink, he was a human being but it was better that he remained sober. At 25 i was destroyed by my drinking, i quite by going to AA, it was tough especially as i was an entertainer and musician but i have never regretted my decision. After reading this i will tell my wife that whatever i say on my death if i ask for booze deny it because i must be mentally insane to ask for something that i was drinking on my death bed 25 years ago.
What the other may also have mentioned and it is easy enough to find out is that Bill Wilson, Dr. Bob, Lois Wilson and others were involved in the occult.
I would recommend a search. In their house in Ohio Bill has what they called “the spook room” here Bill would try and channel with a friend in attendance to take notes. They would also conduct seances, Lois reportedly mentioned they were able to levitate a table etc.
The book I would recommend is Ken Ragge’s myth of the 12 steps.
easily found online or thru Sharp Press.
http://www.morerevealed.com
Perfect pages… tnx
Perfect pages… tnx
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“I’m not horrified that Billl Wilson asked for alcohol as he was dying. I’m horrified that he didn’t get it.”
Nurses don’t give alcohol to patients, you would have to be a bit dim to promote such a thing.
jonny